Super Billiard Expo 2013

[justadub]

There must be truth in what I said or this Thread would have died or been ignored a long time ago. And one thing you are wrong about---I know I hit a sore spot. Look at how big this thread is. Others responding to something I brought out.

The main reason the thread keeps going on at this point is to see what else you are going to say. Since it's pretty much your opinion vs everyone else that is posting.

You know what they say about train wrecks and not being able to turn away, that's the case with most of the long running threads here. There are several on the front page right now. Sorry, those keep pushing you to near the second page

 

[cardiac kid]

Man you are really uptight. I think you could use a nice brownie and some loving.

John,


When I was much younger, we used to refer to those as "Boston Brownies". Think he could really use one!!!!!

Lyn

 

[AtLarge]

Well no, not on an aggregate level - of course not. Individually, yes - some people win and come out ahead of the game, other people lose. It's the nature of any tournament with an entry fee.

I don't believe any event can truly pay out more than it collects in entry fees and remain a viable business operation.

My question was posed to get you to think in broader terms than your statement in the prior post indicated. You said:

"Eventually, we're going to try and map out exactly how much has been paid out to players: both Amateur and Pro over the last 21 years. I think it's interesting to see how much has been paid out over all these years, money put back into pool players hands."​

In today's world, pool tournaments do not put money back into players hands in the aggregate. A few earn more than their expenses, the rest lose. This is more than just "the nature of any tournament with an entry fee." It's a situation that prevails in pool, but not in some other sports. Barry Behrman has bragged about how much money his event has paid out over the years. What he never mentions is that the players in aggregate spend far more to play in those events than they receive back in prize money, despite there being "added money" each year. Pool tournaments today are a net losing financial proposition for the field (or for the field plus their backers).

Sure there are added money events, but that money still comes from somewhere, whether it be a sponsor, a pool room, a casino, or a benevolent entity. And this money is still essentially being added by the entrants, because it's coming from money spent elsewhere in relation to the event, be it ticket sales, food concessions, hotel rooms, what have you. Sponsors add money because they expect to recoup it from selling products, either on-site or throughout the year. It's just a cycle, it's business.

No, in added-money events, the money is not necessarily being added by the entrants. Pro golfers used to pay entry fees for tournaments. I don't know whether they still do. But because of sponsors, the prize funds far exceed the aggregate expenses of the players in the events. Sure, some players lose for the week by failing to make the cut, and some come out way, way ahead. But, overall, the events are net financial gains for the players. And the money from the sponsors does not come just from the players, it comes from everyone in the world who buys their products.

Pool is not that way now. We don't know whether it ever will be.

... Every tournament/event that carries an entry fee and payouts for winners will always result in winners and losers. And people will always spend money in addition to their entry fee for things like food, lodging, supplies, etc...

That's true, but it is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make with you about aggregate financial gain or loss. I hope you now understand my point and will be cautious/realistic in bragging about any beneficial economic effects of your tournament payouts.

I'm not criticizing anything about your event, just making sure you think about the aggregate economics a bit differently.

 

[Joe Banks]

Super Billiards Expo 2013

What is so wrong with everybody getting off there butts and making the Expo better. Yes this means,- putting up modern sings,making the booths more presentable,etc. At least try to keep up with China. Allen and his staff are trying to do there part however everyone should chip in. I do not think it is the productions job to make the dealers booths more presentable. However maybe the production may create a so called "Green Room" with a few 9 footers for the action. I remember it being very exciting when Keith McCready was around. If they can't find a more comfortable place or address the issue with the floors, maybe they can address some of these other issues. Banks "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".

 

[JB Cases]

What is so wrong with everybody getting off there butts and making the Expo better. Yes this means,- putting up modern sings,making the booths more presentable,etc. At least try to keep up with China. Allen and his staff are trying to do there part however everyone should chip in. I do not think it is the productions job to make the dealers booths more presentable. However maybe the production may create a so called "Green Room" with a few 9 footers for the action. I remember it being very exciting when Keith McCready was around. If they can't find a more comfortable place or address the issue with the floors, maybe they can address some of these other issues. Banks "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".

Once again the China show is an INDUSTRY expo not a consumer show. The vendors there are catering to wholesale customers. And what you did not see is the regular booths that looked like crap with people selling out of cardboard boxes.

Sterling could bring the big booth to the SBE as well if they wanted to. It's a 8-10 booth monster that fills most of a semi. New it cost $150,000 to create. That's not the type of show the SBE is. But you have obviously overlooked the fact that many vendors had extremely professional booths and professional presentations.

I have seen the SBE grow up over these past 20 years to the point where all the regular vendors have extremely well polished setups that are tailored to the venue. When these same vendors exhibit at the BCA Expo their booths are different to cater to the buyers there.

Give it up already or go apply for a job with Allen. I am sure you will work very hard to make the show into something you won't complain about.

 

[Joe Banks]

Super Billiards Expo 2013

You must be proud of that case you keep showing. I bet there is a 39 dollar cue in there. Stop putting in on main forum put it on wanted for sale . Maybe you will get the 39 dollars for it. BAnKS "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".Don't you have anything else to do. Like sell a case.

 

[allen_jr]

My question was posed to get you to think in broader terms than your statement in the prior post indicated. You said:

"Eventually, we're going to try and map out exactly how much has been paid out to players: both Amateur and Pro over the last 21 years. I think it's interesting to see how much has been paid out over all these years, money put back into pool players hands."​

In today's world, pool tournaments do not put money back into players hands in the aggregate. A few earn more than their expenses, the rest lose. This is more than just "the nature of any tournament with an entry fee." It's a situation that prevails in pool, but not in some other sports. Barry Behrman has bragged about how much money his event has paid out over the years. What he never mentions is that the players in aggregate spend far more to play in those events than they receive back in prize money, despite there being "added money" each year. Pool tournaments today are a net losing financial proposition for the field (or for the field plus their backers).



No, in added-money events, the money is not necessarily being added by the entrants. Pro golfers used to pay entry fees for tournaments. I don't know whether they still do. But because of sponsors, the prize funds far exceed the aggregate expenses of the players in the events. Sure, some players lose for the week by failing to make the cut, and some come out way, way ahead. But, overall, the events are net financial gains for the players. And the money from the sponsors does not come just from the players, it comes from everyone in the world who buys their products.

Pool is not that way now. We don't know whether it ever will be.



That's true, but it is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make with you about aggregate financial gain or loss. I hope you now understand my point and will be cautious/realistic in bragging about any beneficial economic effects of your tournament payouts.

I'm not criticizing anything about your event, just making sure you think about the aggregate economics a bit differently.

You are correct, on an aggregate level, the money in the prize pool is lower than the sum of all money spent for food, travel, lodging, expenses, etc as a group. Based on performance, some players come out ahead, some come out behind. Our primary and largest events are a series of Amateur events designed for hundreds of players to come and have fun, overall close to 2000 players. Our Pro Event never aims for more than a 64 player field.


You are also true in regards to the situation in pro golf being different than that in pro pool. I wasn't talking about golf though, I was talking about pool.

I apologize if I appeared to be bragging, that was not my intent. I stated I thought it would be interesting to see the payouts. Perhaps a better term would be redistributed. Over the last 21 years, our event has created a scenario that has allowed for the possible transfer of large amounts of money, on an aggregate level. Seeing the totals of the prize pools and how much players won over the years would perhaps be interesting to see for some people, myself included. I'm aware that the amount of money in the prize pools would be a net lower figure than the aggregate amount players have spent when factoring in their travel, hotel, food, equipment, practice time, and other expenses.

Until the day comes when outside sponsor money is being brought in to the billiards community, as it is in golf and other major sports, then this situation will never change. Even with a $100,000 added pool for 128 players, that still may not net an overall positive as you allude to. If each player in that event spends $782 or more in expenses (travel, hotel, food, etc) related to the event, then the group's aggregate expenditure exceeds the prize pool. Could even be a free entry fee, wouldn't matter. Does that make an event like this undesirable?

Anyhow, yes, I do understand your point. I think we were sort of talking apples and oranges though. I just think the amount collected and redistributed via prize pools over 21 years would be interesting to see.

 

[JB Cases]

You must be proud of that case you keep showing. I bet there is a 39 dollar cue in there. Stop putting in on main forum put it on wanted for sale . Maybe you will get the 39 dollars for it. BAnKS "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".Don't you have anything else to do. Like sell a case.

Sure I have other things to do. But you keep knocking and comparing without knowing what you are talking about. I happen to live in China and have been to the GBE several times.

Just because you see a big booth doesn't mean it's really worth anything.

We get it that you didn't have a good time. Why do you go then if all you are going to do is complain?

I had a great time, the people I was with had great times, just about everyone I talked to was having a good show, vendors and visitors alike.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Yes this means,- putting up modern sings ...

Maybe like THIS from a Super Bowl?:grin:

 

[javi2]

Lmao!! Bob, that's funny as sh*t! Is that Allen playing lead guitar?

 

[AtLarge]

...Anyhow, yes, I do understand your point. I think we were sort of talking apples and oranges though. I just think the amount collected and redistributed via prize pools over 21 years would be interesting to see.

I agree that it would be interesting to see. I like numbers. But what's also important is what is said about those numbers, how they are presented.

 

[Joe Banks]

Super Billiards Expo 2013

Again this is your opinion not the truth. And to back me up -dealers tried to get the booths for less money and being they could not some shared booths. This is a fact as dealers told me this first hand. If they all did very well and were happy like you claim they would not have to share booths. Again I call it as I see it. I just don't say anything to back up an opinion. BANKS "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".

 

[allen_jr]

Again this is your opinion not the truth. And to back me up -dealers tried to get the booths for less money and being they could not some shared booths. This is a fact as dealers told me this first hand. If they all did very well and were happy like you claim they would not have to share booths. Again I call it as I see it. I just don't say anything to back up an opinion. BANKS "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".

The truth is that vendors, players, fans, buyers, and spectators keep coming back every year. They do not come back because they are losing money or because they have a miserable time or to give you something to complain about; they come back because they enjoy the show, for whatever reason. Perhaps they come to make money, perhaps they come to enjoy the camaraderie, perhaps they come to showcase a new product and take orders, perhaps they come to develop brand loyalty or enhance their brand image, or perhaps they just plain enjoy being there.

If people, vendors and fans alike, did not enjoy the show then they would stop coming and the show would cease to exist. Sure, some people may not enjoy the show and may not return. Some people prefer Pepsi to Coke also, but Coke is still doing pretty well. As long as the overwhelming majority find value in what we offer, then the show is successful. Of course, there is always room for improvement as well, even when the majority is satisfied. That's the truth in business: without satisfied customers, a business can not operate.

Again, sorry you did not enjoy the show. Unfortunately the show and all the vendors cannot make everyone happy. Perhaps next year you should visit the China Guangzhou International Billiards Exhibition instead, I have a feeling you would have a better time there. I know I'd like to go sometime as well, I think it would be a lot of fun to witness.

 

[cardiac kid]

Allen,

Want you to know I just made my hotel reservations for next year's event. Told your Dad I'd like to be the first entry. Doubt if that will happen but you never know! In 2014 I'm going to try to enter all three main amateur events plus the Warm-up. Keep up the great work.

Lyn

 

[allen_jr]

Allen,

Want you to know I just made my hotel reservations for next year's event. Told your Dad I'd like to be the first entry. Doubt if that will happen but you never know! In 2014 I'm going to try to enter all three main amateur events plus the Warm-up. Keep up the great work.

Lyn

Awesome, thanks Lyn! I'll try to give you the inside-scoop as soon as I set-up player registration so you can be first

I look forward to listing your name as back-to-back champion!

 

[Joe Banks]

Super Billiards Expo 2013

You bet i'll go to the China. Just like I've been to the BCA shows in Vagas as well as other states. At least when you buy something they appreciate it. And there minds are open to suggestions unlike yours. Thats why they do so well. I know as well as everyone knows that this Expo has tapered off wether you want to admit it or not. Other AZer's said there was hardly any action, where did these players go? What happened to the free party at night? Where did all these people go? Now what are you going to tell us. You had no empty booths--Ya right. I am not blindfolded as others may be. Keep telling people to go to other shows and believe me they will. Keep pretending your doing so well and rubbing it in every ones face how much money your making. That is just great for business. BANKS "The Pain Was Too Much To Bear".

 

[allen_jr]

You bet i'll go to the China. Just like I've been to the BCA shows in Vagas as well as other states. At least when you buy something they appreciate it. And there minds are open to suggestions unlike yours. Thats why they do so well. I know as well as everyone knows that this Expo has tapered off wether you want to admit it or not. Other AZer's said there was hardly any action, where did these players go? What happened to the free party at night? Where did all these people go? Now what are you going to tell us. You had no empty booths--Ya right. I am not blindfolded as others may be. Keep telling people to go to other shows and believe me they will. Keep pretending your doing so well and rubbing it in every ones face how much money your making. That is just great for business. BANKS "The Pain Was Too Much To Bear".

I promise, my mind is open to suggestions. That's why I read what people have to say and consider in for future years. In fact, earlier you mentioned that we should have some 4.5 x 9 tables available for practice, and that is something we are planning to bring for 2014, in a nice separate carpeted room for the players.

I also read and listen to address concerns, of which you have many. So, I'll address them:
The free party at night? That was hosted by an individual all on his own. He would come, rent a room, and provide the party for everyone out of the goodness of his heart. My guess is that he just decided not to come and spend the money to have it again, my guess is it wasn't cheap. And giving things away for free, well, that just gets expensive.

And yes, I will tell you there were no empty booths, because there were not. In fact, you can still see the floorplan and list of who was there. Here is a link: http://www.superbilliardsexpo.com/info2013/exhibitors2013.html. If you look, you'll notice that every booth is occupied. This is not my opinion, it's a fact. And one that you are misrepresenting to the public, which is why I am providing proof.

And yes, I think people should also go to other shows. There are many great billiards events in the world, and anyone who enjoys billiards should attend all of them. It's something we all enjoy, so why not enjoy as much of it as possible?

I'm not sure how you consider me rubbing financial success in anyone's face, but oh well, that's how you feel. Shit, I'd love to go to the China show as well, but I can't afford it. Well, and I don't like flying either, so getting there is a problem.

I'm also not sure why you seem to be getting so confrontational with me. You asked for someone to listen and address your concerns, so I am. Seems like you may not like the fact that I am providing facts to counter your untruths.

Stating your opinion is fine, I understand and accept that fact that you and others may not enjoy the show. Hopefully we can do some things that will make you or others change your mind. But stating your "facts" such as paper signs and bedsheets hanging around the venue and empty booths, well, those things just aren't true. So, if you choose to spread these "facts", then you leave me no choice but to prove otherwise. Am I supposed to sit idle and allow you to tell blatant lies?

I wish you all the best, I really do. I am OK with the fact that you didn't enjoy the show. Ideally, I'd prefer everyone enjoy the show, so I'll keep reading people's feedback and considering it for future years.

 

[rjb1168]

:killingme:

You bet i'll go to the China. Just like I've been to the BCA shows in Vagas as well as other states. At least when you buy something they appreciate it. And there minds are open to suggestions unlike yours. Thats why they do so well. I know as well as everyone knows that this Expo has tapered off wether you want to admit it or not. Other AZer's said there was hardly any action, where did these players go? What happened to the free party at night? Where did all these people go? Now what are you going to tell us. You had no empty booths--Ya right. I am not blindfolded as others may be. Keep telling people to go to other shows and believe me they will. Keep pretending your doing so well and rubbing it in every ones face how much money your making. That is just great for business. BANKS "The Pain Was Too Much To Bear".

Hey Banks,
Here you go :kma: :kma: :kma: :kma: :kma: :kma: :kma: :lmao:

All I know is I had a good time :yes:

 

[Joe Banks]

Super Billiards Expo 2013

Well Jr. as you did not address everything I said, Conveniently you left out some issues. Besides that, In your words wanting the public to know the truth----How about having a booth at your Expo that didn't belong. Yes a booth that had nothing to do with pool what so ever. Am I not telling the truth about this ? A home improvement booth. As I passed by it a couple of times, no one was even in the booth. Does this have anything to do with why your so called floor plain was full ? You seemed to leave out that little detail. Again, something to back me up. You are trying to pull one over on the public. I guess you do want to go tit for tat with me. Well my weapons are loaded with facts to back them up. BANKS "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".

 

[classiccues]

Yes there was a few non-pool booths in the house. But so what? The contractor was out of central NJ and he said he had gotten a few leads. Good for him, since I am also a contractor out of NJ, got me thinking, maybe I should do the same.

Except I can have a cue and deck booth... Probably a good idea to get some non-pool exhibitors. However, my preference my be that the local go-go bar get a booth.

JV

Well Jr. as you did not address everything I said, Conveniently you left out some issues. Besides that, In your words wanting the public to know the truth----How about having a booth at your Expo that didn't belong. Yes a booth that had nothing to do with pool what so ever. Am I not telling the truth about this ? A home improvement booth. As I passed by it a couple of times, no one was even in the booth. Does this have anything to do with why your so called floor plain was full ? You seemed to leave out that little detail. Again, something to back me up. You are trying to pull one over on the public. I guess you do want to go tit for tat with me. Well my weapons are loaded with facts to back them up. BANKS "The Pain Was Too Hard To Bear".