Super fast rails, what is the appeal?

[Straightpool_99]

Like the title says, i don't see the appeals with the rails of today banking ever faster and shorter. What is the point of that? Modern tournaments are played on brand new, sliding cloth (which in itself limits what you can do with balls on the rails), and now you are playing at rails that throw the ball out rocket fast, and perpendicular, no matter what english you put on the ball. Ok, that was maybe stretching it a bit, but you know what I mean. Is this the way forward for our game, limiting the power/spin game? If you combine this with deep shelf pockets, you get a center ball, rolling game. Is that what's entertaining about pool? I must admit I feel way out of touch with the direction in which pool is going, but I've got a feeling many disagree, so let me have it, lol!

 

[Colonel]

I'm with you. Simonis makes tables quick enough. Combine this with these "hot rails" and a stroke really isn't required to get around the table. On tables with new cloth and Artemis rails I have to rein my stroke in.

Additionally they make average players great bankers, you can do things with these rails you can't do with super speed rails, not crazy about them at all.

 

[billiardthought]

I don't have much experience of playing on the older style conditions you speak of, but I do enjoy playing on a fresh diamond table with new cloth

- guy with no stroke, I guess

 

[MitchAlsup]

It seems to me that people who run tournaments are caught between a rock and a hard place.

If the pool table is not "as new from the factory" people complain about the condition of the equipment.
If the pool table is not "slow enough to play" people complain about the condition of the table.

Its a no win situation.

 

[336Robin]

???

I was playing on older Diamonds that you needed a stroke to play on and Ive heard complants about how they bank. When it comes to some multiple rails shots they don't do so well....they are the red insignia.

Lately im playing on new diamonds blue insignia and they play pretty darn good in my opinion they do have some extra speed but not so much to warrant any compliants.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I started in 1966. So I am rather familiar with older cloth & natural rubber rails of the old Brunswick equipment.

I'll just say this. I think it has very much to do with the masses. It's the same reason that many halls have the red circle cue ball. It's easier to draw & the masses have more fun.

I hate playing on either a Diamond or a Brunswick table for any consecutive length of time & then hitting the other brand. There is no consistency in this game & that is because the BCA is a TRADE organization & basically prostituted the game when they were supposed to be the 'governing body'. But that was their 'job' for the majority of the members of the 'Association' vs any responsibility to the game.

I will say differing equipment & how top players, pros, adapt so quickly makes me give them their due.

To me it's like playing tennis on a fast grass court vs. playing on slow clay. Perhaps a medium speed synthetic would be best for the masses.

Personally I think it just brings the fields closer together from the bottom up & actually hurts the better players at the top as they have less separation.

Good for the game? I thnk it depends from which point of view one is looking.

IMO There should be separation between pros & amateurs. How many individuals play hardball or tackle football.

Make pro golfers play with blade irons & balata golf balls & let the amateurs use what ever they want.

I know that is not so easily done in either golf or pool given it's now become ALL about the money & no Honor to the Games.

You Stay Well.

 

[fastone371]

I was playing on older Diamonds that you needed a stroke to play on and Ive heard complants about how they bank. When it comes to some multiple rails shots they don't do so well....they are the red insignia.

Lately im playing on new diamonds blue insignia and they play pretty darn good in my opinion they do have some extra speed but not so much to warrant any compliants.

That is unusual, it is the Red label Diamonds that are the ones that play so fast and springy, Diamond fixed this problem on the Blue label tables, which are the newer tables, and the rails slowed down quite a bit. Maybe they did not have Simonis on the Red label you played on. The Reds I play on with worn Simonis easily go 6 1/2 rails on a soft/medium break stroke. I break at 21-22 MPH, it doesn't take that much to go 6 1/2 full table lengths.

 

[2strong4u]

Like the title says, i don't see the appeals with the rails of today banking ever faster and shorter. What is the point of that? Modern tournaments are played on brand new, sliding cloth (which in itself limits what you can do with balls on the rails), and now you are playing at rails that throw the ball out rocket fast, and perpendicular, no matter what english you put on the ball. Ok, that was maybe stretching it a bit, but you know what I mean. Is this the way forward for our game, limiting the power/spin game? If you combine this with deep shelf pockets, you get a center ball, rolling game. Is that what's entertaining about pool? I must admit I feel way out of touch with the direction in which pool is going, but I've got a feeling many disagree, so let me have it, lol!

Our room just restretched tournament blue Simonis cloth a month or so back. It's gotten a bit dirty and still is a slick as ice. The balls slide on the rail and open up bank angles. English of the rail is entirely unpredictable. Inside english doesn't bite on the rail....but you can miss a ball a diamond up the rail and that will just slide in.

It's not even the same game. Why is tournament blue Simonis so slick??

I agree the fast rails are getting crazy. Get a little off angle and you have to shoot the cueball across the table 3 times or go up and down table full length just to runout the speed of the CB.

This is what pool has become. Enter a professional tournament with brand new ultratight cloth and you'll see how different the game is than your home room. Then add in the short banking rails on modern tables. It's just ridiculous really.

 

[2strong4u]

I started in 1966. So I am rather familiar with older cloth & natural rubber rails of the old Brunswick equipment.

I'll just say this. I think it has very much to do with the masses. It's the same reason that many halls have the red circle cue ball. It's easier to draw & the masses have more fun.

I hate playing on either a Diamond or a Brunswick table for any consecutive length of time & then hitting the other brand. There is no consistency in this game & that is because the BCA is a TRADE organization & basically prostituted the game when they were supposed to be the 'governing body'. But that was their 'job' for the majority of the members of the 'Association' vs any responsibility to the game.

I will say differing equipment & how top players, pros, adapt so quickly makes me give them their due.

To me it's like playing tennis on a fast grass court vs. playing on slow clay. Perhaps a medium speed synthetic would be best for the masses.

Personally I think it just brings the fields closer together from the bottom up & actually hurts the better players at the top as they have less separation.

Good for the game? I thnk it depends from which point of view one is looking.

IMO There should be separation between pros & amateurs. How many individuals play hardball or tackle football.

Make pro golfers play with blade irons & balata golf balls & let the amateurs use what ever they want.

I know that is not so easily done in either golf or pool given it's now become ALL about the money & no Honor to the Games.

You Stay Well.

I see your points about the pros having to adapt to all conditions well.

What I don't like is that advanced amateurs and short stops have to step up in play on brand new conditons and try to beat guys that play on new equipment at multiple events a year. It limits players from coming with upsets that keep the game from growing stale.

Now more rooms have Diamond tables. When Diamonds first came out the first time you played one it was like a whole new game. It's still 2 hrs drive for me to get on one and I don't like in the sticks either.

I think all these tought conditions have limited the expansion of tournaments. If exuipment could somehow have been more uniform it would have made the game bigger today.

 

[ENGLISH!]

That is unusual, it is the Red label Diamonds that are the ones that play so fast and springy, Diamond fixed this problem on the Blue label tables, which are the newer tables, and the rails slowed down quite a bit. Maybe they did not have Simonis on the Red label you played on. The Reds I play on with worn Simonis easily go 6 1/2 rails on a soft/medium break stroke. I break at 21-22 MPH, it doesn't take that much to go 6 1/2 full table lengths.

I agree with you. The hall I frequent has 1 red & 2 blues & I hate going from one to the other on any given day as they bank totally differently & they have the same Simonis cloth. That said, I'd rather be on a Brunswick Gold Crown than either one as I think they bank more 'true'. But I guess that depends on what one's reference points are.

 

[fastone371]

I started in 1966. So I am rather familiar with older cloth & natural rubber rails of the old Brunswick equipment.

I'll just say this. I think it has very much to do with the masses. It's the same reason that many halls have the red circle cue ball. It's easier to draw & the masses have more fun.

I hate playing on either a Diamond or a Brunswick table for any consecutive length of time & then hitting the other brand. There is no consistency in this game & that is because the BCA is a TRADE organization & basically prostituted the game when they were supposed to be the 'governing body'. But that was their 'job' for the majority of the members of the 'Association' vs any responsibility to the game.

I will say differing equipment & how top players, pros, adapt so quickly makes me give them their due.

To me it's like playing tennis on a fast grass court vs. playing on slow clay. Perhaps a medium speed synthetic would be best for the masses.

Personally I think it just brings the fields closer together from the bottom up & actually hurts the better players at the top as they have less separation.

Good for the game? I thnk it depends from which point of view one is looking.

IMO There should be separation between pros & amateurs. How many individuals play hardball or tackle football.

Make pro golfers play with blade irons & balata golf balls & let the amateurs use what ever they want.

I know that is not so easily done in either golf or pool given it's now become ALL about the money & no Honor to the Games.

You Stay Well.

I am only starting my 5th year of playing right now but I shoot in league and play in many tournaments. The thing that drives me crazy isn't that some tables are slow and some are fast, rather that there is such a big difference between the 2, some consistency would nice. I prefer to play on Diamonds or tables that play like Diamonds. I think the reason for this is because almost every tournament and league around here is played on bar boxes. If its not a Diamond that means its a Valley and many tables do not get taken care of well. Besides having terribly slow backed cloth you also have dead rails that "thunk", I'm sure everyone here knows that Valley sound I speak of. Then you also have that non level tables, you shot a slower shot then to your horror you stand back and watch your cue ball roll off line by more than a balls width. The Diamonds are all newer tables compared to the Valleys so they are all in much nicer condition. We don't yet know what a 35 year old Diamond bar box will be like compared to the Valleys after they have had cushion replacement and worked on by people who have no business even touching a pool table. I do know that my Gold Crown II at home did not really pick up much speed when I had the sub-rails modified and Artemis cushions installed. I think it is mainly the cloth that makes the tables play fast rather than the rails unless the cushions are installed at the wrong height or angle.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I am only starting my 5th year of playing right now but I shoot in league and play in many tournaments. The thing that drives me crazy isn't that some tables are slow and some are fast, rather that there is such a big difference between the 2, some consistency would nice. I prefer to play on Diamonds or tables that play like Diamonds. I think the reason for this is because almost every tournament and league around here is played on bar boxes. If its not a Diamond that means its a Valley and many tables do not get taken care of well. Besides having terribly slow backed cloth you also have dead rails that "thunk", I'm sure everyone here knows that Valley sound I speak of. Then you also have that non level tables, you shot a slower shot then to your horror you stand back and watch your cue ball roll off line by more than a balls width. The Diamonds are all newer tables compared to the Valleys so they are all in much nicer condition. We don't yet know what a 35 year old Diamond bar box will be like compared to the Valleys after they have had cushion replacement and worked on by people who have no business even touching a pool table. I do know that my Gold Crown II at home did not really pick up much speed when I had the sub-rails modified and Artemis cushions installed. I think it is mainly the cloth that makes the tables play fast rather than the rails unless the cushions are installed at the wrong height or angle.

I played in the bar leagues 4 nights a week for quite a few years, so I know of which you speak. Going from one Valley to another with different aged cloth is not like going from a Brunswick to a Diamond. Back in the day of the severely different cue balls on coin tables I would not even call that game pool or those tables pool table. They were a game all unto themselves, sort of like table tennis to real tennis.

My 1965ish Brunswick Sport King sill has the original rails & plays the same as the day I got it in 1968. I think it has to do with natural rubber vs synthetic rubber.

As to your last statement different cloth on the same rails will play differently, but so will the same cloth on different rails. Any difference IS a difference.

Earl Strickland advocates different cloth on the rails vs the table bed.

As I said it is rather sad that the game virtually has no standards. IMO it will never reach where it could have gone in the realm of the respect that it deserves & that is one of the reasons.

It's a recreational parlor game rather than a legitimate sport in the eyes of the general public & they are basically correct given how it stands & was prostituted so that more manufacturers could make money & others could make more money.

At one time, the City Park Tennis complex had Grass Courts & Clay Courts & the patrons could choose on what they wanted to play. Then Grass went out & hard courts came in, but one could still choose on what one wanted to play. Naturally the courts were all the came 'regulation' size & the lines were the same & the net posts & heights were the same as tennis had standards.

Pocket Billiards or 'Pool' has never been like that.

Good Luck on Your Journey.

 

[Johnnyt]

Give me an old GC with slow cloth and natural rubber rails instead playing on a Diamond/Simonis ice hockey table. Most players under 30 YO today don't have the pleasure of playing on, and comparing a GC set up right by a good mechanic. Going 4 and 5 rails to get pinpoint position meant something on them. JMO. Johnnyt

 

[cbi1000]

The speed on a 7' diamond is stupid... It's not even pool anymore. I like the diamond bar box for quality of build, but it really could use slower felt and the rails, FORGETTTABOUTITTTTTT.

As for the 9' table, i have to say i like the Gold Crown tables better...

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Fast rails need to be toned down with old carpet style nappy cloth.
This is the only combination where you feel some sort or control.

Much like how lighter cue balls came out so that people with no stroke could draw the ball, fast rails and ice cloth are there for the people who have crappy strokes, who couldn't go anywhere on the table, without the rails bouncing their pathetic poke stroked cueballs all over the place.

If you have fast cloth and lightening rails, you have multiple problems that occur.

People who are accustomed to pinpoint position, suffer the most.

You don't want to over hit a shot, and you end up babying shots everywhere so that you don't over run position. So if you have lightening conditions, you need to have a table that is absolutely as close to perfectly level as possible so that everything you hit at "dribble it into the hole" pocket speed, rolls straight.
If the table rolls off, that is a losing battle and now you are hitting balls with authority so balls roll straight, and now your cueball is bouncing around like a pinball machine.

Then, if you are hitting everything softly, you run the risk of having a million balls skid because you didn't hit them with authority.

Bring back the old days where you actually had to stroke the ball to maneuver.
Where you could hit the ball with authority and not lose your cueball in situations where you should not.

The bouncy rails fast cloth combo is just stupid.

It's one thing to play on new cloth and understand the different angles and english you need to use to maneuver. Where the table is soft and balls are easier to pocket so it's a fair trade.
Altogether different when you have cloth that is worn in, balls aren't sliding in, and you still have to play stupid angles so you don't hook yourself or leave yourself long, cause the rail decided to torture you.

It just makes the game that much harder.

 

[philly]

The speed on a 7' diamond is stupid... It's not even pool anymore. I like the diamond bar box for quality of build, but it really could use slower felt and the rails, FORGETTTABOUTITTTTTT.

As for the 9' table, i have to say i like the Gold Crown tables better...

I'm a Gold Crown guy too. Really never play on bar boxes except at the SBE and yes they are super fast. There is one room around me that has Championship cloth on their 9 foot Gold Crowns that is super fast.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Fast rails need to be toned down with old carpet style nappy cloth.
This is the only combination where you feel some sort or control.

Much like how lighter cue balls came out so that people with no stroke could draw the ball, fast rails and ice cloth are there for the people who have crappy strokes, who couldn't go anywhere on the table, without the rails bouncing their pathetic poke stroked cueballs all over the place.

If you have fast cloth and lightening rails, you have multiple problems that occur.

People who are accustomed to pinpoint position, suffer the most.

You don't want to over hit a shot, and you end up babying shots everywhere so that you don't over run position. So if you have lightening conditions, you need to have a table that is absolutely as close to perfectly level as possible so that everything you hit at "dribble it into the hole" pocket speed, rolls straight.
If the table rolls off, that is a losing battle and now you are hitting balls with authority so balls roll straight, and now your cueball is bouncing around like a pinball machine.

Then, if you are hitting everything softly, you run the risk of having a million balls skid because you didn't hit them with authority.

Bring back the old days where you actually had to stroke the ball to maneuver.
Where you could hit the ball with authority and not lose your cueball in situations where you should not.

The bouncy rails fast cloth combo is just stupid.

It's one thing to play on new cloth and understand the different angles and english you need to use to maneuver. Where the table is soft and balls are easier to pocket so it's a fair trade.
Altogether different when you have cloth that is worn in, balls aren't sliding in, and you still have to play stupid angles so you don't hook yourself or leave yourself long, cause the rail decided to torture you.

It just makes the game that much harder.

:thumbup2:

As to your last statement though, that word 'harder' or more difficult is a relative term. You explained things rather well.

I would just caution some from misunderstanding that would come back & say that the game should be harder & that PROS can handle it & that the true best player will come out on top.

My statement earlier about such conditions bringing the playing fields closer together because it diminishes the need for 'a good stroke'.

To me the conditions lend to more 'bad rolls' & 'lucky rolls' which to me actually hurts the 'real' competition.

I hope I said that properly so as to convey my thoughts.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

:thumbup2:

As to your last statement though, that word 'harder' or more difficult is a relative term.

Example.
Object ball is on the middle diamond of the bottom rail, not frozen.
Cue call is 1 diamond over to either side, and a diamond up.
Next object ball is on the spot.

Where would you expect the cueball to be at after cutting it in with medium speed going one rail for position?
I would expect it to be above the spot somewhere with either a straight in shot on the next ball, or slightly past that with a shot where the cueball would be going downtable. This being with fast cloth only, not rails.

I would not be expecting to be frozen to the top rail, going up and back downtable again, or scratching in a top corner pocket like i see happening with the fast cloth fast rails combo.
That is the type of speed I am describing. Like old Gandys.

Normal angles become angles you don't want anymore.

I don't really care for those people who say the better player or the pro would adjust, cause I've seen plenty of top players completely lose their mind under conditions like these. It no longer becomes a game of running out, it becomes a game of who sold the farm first when they got out of line, and who has the easy cosmo run out where you don't have to use a lot of rails to negotiate the table.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I'm a Gold Crown guy too. Really never play on bar boxes except at the SBE and yes they are super fast. There is one room around me that has Championship cloth on their 9 foot Gold Crowns that is super fast.

I know the room you are talking about.
Sure the cloth is fast, but it plays just fine on the tables with the original rails.
There is no problem with control on those tables. Their speed is great actually.

But if you are talking about the 4 tables that had the rails updated to the faster rails that also have the cloth, that is a completely different scenario, and those are the perfect example of what I am talking about.

They are pinball machines.
Running out is only happening if the balls are lying perfect, and you don't suffer any skids when rolling your balls in.
They are insane.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Example.
Object ball is on the middle diamond of the bottom rail, not frozen.
Cue call is 1 diamond over to either side, and a diamond up.
Next object ball is on the spot.

Where would you expect the cueball to be at after cutting it in with medium speed going one rail for position?
I would expect it to be above the spot somewhere with either a straight in shot on the next ball, or slightly past that with a shot where the cueball would be going downtable. This being with fast cloth only, not rails.

I would not be expecting to be frozen to the top rail, going up and back downtable again, or scratching in a top corner pocket like i see happening with the fast cloth fast rails combo.
That is the type of speed I am describing. Like old Gandys.

Normal angles become angles you don't want anymore.

I don't really care for those people who say the better player or the pro would adjust, cause I've seen plenty of top players completely lose their mind under conditions like these. It no longer becomes a game of running out, it becomes a game of who sold the farm first when they got out of line, and who has the easy cosmo run out where you don't have to use a lot of rails to negotiate the table.

I totally agree with. I just Monday in a one pocket match scratched multiple times because the ball with draw left english just kept trickling like an EverReady Bunny Rabbit. I was able to overcome but it made what should have been an easy win rather interesting.