Surprised at the "stickiness" of Fargo ratings

hasu

Registered
In July 2023 I began tracking my Fargo performance rating on a night-by-night basis. If anyone's curious, there's a simple spreadsheet under "files" at the "Oklahoma Poolplayers" Facebook group called pr.xls that can be used to compute this. Equivalently, DigitalPool will compute your "Effective Rating" for an event that includes Fargo ratings.

This is something I started doing doing for fun, so that I could derive stats like how I tended to perform in league vs tournaments, how many games I tend to play a month, how many games it takes to move my rating, etc.

Something that has stood out to me is how much "stickier" my Fargo rating is than I expected. In a nutshell:

RatingRobustness
July 20235181219
January 20245421724

Weighted (by number of games) average performance rating from July 2023 - January 2024: 575

In other words, over my last ~500 games over a 6 month period, I've performed at the level of a 575, yet my rating has only increased by 24 points from 518 to 542. Not what I would have expected! It really goes to show how big of an influence older games have on your rating. It retrospect, this probably shouldn't have been so surprising. Taken from the Fargo's explanation of their ab initio global optimization process:

Current games are given full weight, and there is an exponential decay of the weight of past games such that 3-year-old games contribute half, 6-year-old games contribute a quarter, and so forth.

I've been playing for 7 years, and playing in Fargo-reported events for 6 years, so the player I was 3 years ago is significantly different from the player I am today. It's wild to imagine that those games still contribute half-weight to my rating! As someone who's still improving at a relatively steady rate, my guess is that a non-trivial "rating gap" will persist up and until I hit a wall in my progression and I perform at a relatively stable level for 12 months. But this is just a gut feel; Fargo's optimization process is non-linear, and my gut take is based on thinking about the data linearly.

Lest this be interpreted as complaining: I love Fargo and what's it's done to add objectivity to the sport. Also, how can I complain that I still get to play in "550 & under" tournaments 😂

For anyone who's curious, here's my raw data:

PerformanceGames playedEventDate playedRatingRating change
518​
744​
9​
League
13-Jul-23​
520​
+2​
685​
9​
League
20-Jul-23​
522​
+2​
572​
9​
League
3-Aug-23​
522​
0​
541​
9​
League
10-Aug-23​
522​
0​
553​
9​
League
17-Aug-23​
522​
0​
542​
31​
Tournament
19-Aug-23​
522​
0​
456​
9​
Tournament
20-Aug-23​
522​
0​
630​
9​
League
24-Aug-23​
523​
+1​
544​
9​
League
31-Aug-23​
524​
+1​
784​
9​
League
7-Sep-23​
527​
+3​
555​
9​
League
21-Sep-23​
527​
0​
501​
9​
League
28-Sep-23​
528​
+1​
541​
9​
League
19-Oct-23​
528​
0​
587​
25​
Tournament
22-Oct-23​
528​
0​
413​
9​
League
26-Oct-23​
528​
0​
647​
9​
League
2-Nov-23​
529​
+1​
391​
13​
Tournament
4-Nov-23​
529​
0​
472​
9​
League
9-Nov-23​
528​
-1​
648​
33​
Tournament
10-Nov-23​
532​
+4​
633​
86​
Tournament
11-Nov-23​
541​
+9​
598​
25​
Tournament
15-Oct-23​
540​
0​
519​
37​
Tournament
15-Oct-23​
540​
-1​
491​
9​
League
16-Nov-23​
540​
0​
625​
9​
League
30-Nov-23​
540​
0​
511​
27​
Tournament
1-Dec-23​
540​
0​
368​
9​
League
7-Dec-23​
538​
-2​
561​
9​
League
14-Dec-23​
539​
+1​
632​
32​
Tournament
17-Dec-23​
541​
+2​
647​
5​
League
4-Jan-24​
542​
+1​
481​
5​
League
11-Jan-24​
542​
0​
539​
15​
Tournament
20-Jan-24​
542​
0​

There may be some minor inaccuracies in the raw data, as well as some oddities like (a) the fact that I played in a large BCA tournament in October that wasn't entered into the system until a month later, and (b) the fact that Fargo performs a nightly re-optimization. But the gross numbers like my weighted average performance should be quite accurate.
 
In July 2023 I began tracking my Fargo performance rating on a night-by-night basis. If anyone's curious, there's a simple spreadsheet under "files" at the "Oklahoma Poolplayers" Facebook group called pr.xls that can be used to compute this. Equivalently, DigitalPool will compute your "Effective Rating" for an event that includes Fargo ratings.

This is something I started doing doing for fun, so that I could derive stats like how I tended to perform in league vs tournaments, how many games I tend to play a month, how many games it takes to move my rating, etc.

Something that has stood out to me is how much "stickier" my Fargo rating is than I expected. In a nutshell:

RatingRobustness
July 20235181219
January 20245421724

Weighted (by number of games) average performance rating from July 2023 - January 2024: 575

In other words, over my last ~500 games over a 6 month period, I've performed at the level of a 575, yet my rating has only increased by 24 points from 518 to 542. Not what I would have expected! It really goes to show how big of an influence older games have on your rating. It retrospect, this probably shouldn't have been so surprising. Taken from the Fargo's explanation of their ab initio global optimization process:



I've been playing for 7 years, and playing in Fargo-reported events for 6 years, so the player I was 3 years ago is significantly different from the player I am today. It's wild to imagine that those games still contribute half-weight to my rating! As someone who's still improving at a relatively steady rate, I anticipate that a notable "rating gap" will persist up and until I hit a wall in my progression and I perform at a relatively stable level for 12 months. But this is just a gut feel; Fargo's optimization process is non-linear, and my gut take is based on thinking about the data linearly.

Lest this be interpreted as complaining: I love Fargo and what's it's done to add objectivity to the sport. Also, how can I complain that I still get to play in "550 & under" tournaments 😂

For anyone who's curious, here's my raw data:

PerformanceGames playedEventDate playedRatingRating change
518​
744​
9​
League
13-Jul-23​
520​
+2​
685​
9​
League
20-Jul-23​
522​
+2​
572​
9​
League
3-Aug-23​
522​
0​
541​
9​
League
10-Aug-23​
522​
0​
553​
9​
League
17-Aug-23​
522​
0​
542​
31​
Tournament
19-Aug-23​
522​
0​
456​
9​
Tournament
20-Aug-23​
522​
0​
630​
9​
League
24-Aug-23​
523​
+1​
544​
9​
League
31-Aug-23​
524​
+1​
784​
9​
League
7-Sep-23​
527​
+3​
555​
9​
League
21-Sep-23​
527​
0​
501​
9​
League
28-Sep-23​
528​
+1​
541​
9​
League
19-Oct-23​
528​
0​
587​
25​
Tournament
22-Oct-23​
528​
0​
413​
9​
League
26-Oct-23​
528​
0​
647​
9​
League
2-Nov-23​
529​
+1​
391​
13​
Tournament
4-Nov-23​
529​
0​
472​
9​
League
9-Nov-23​
528​
-1​
648​
33​
Tournament
10-Nov-23​
532​
+4​
633​
86​
Tournament
11-Nov-23​
541​
+9​
598​
25​
Tournament
15-Oct-23​
540​
0​
519​
37​
Tournament
15-Oct-23​
540​
-1​
491​
9​
League
16-Nov-23​
540​
0​
625​
9​
League
30-Nov-23​
540​
0​
511​
27​
Tournament
1-Dec-23​
540​
0​
368​
9​
League
7-Dec-23​
538​
-2​
561​
9​
League
14-Dec-23​
539​
+1​
632​
32​
Tournament
17-Dec-23​
541​
+2​
647​
5​
League
4-Jan-24​
542​
+1​
481​
5​
League
11-Jan-24​
542​
0​
539​
15​
Tournament
20-Jan-24​
542​
0​

There may be some minor inaccuracies in the raw data, as well as some oddities like (a) the fact that I played in a large BCA tournament in October that wasn't entered into the system until a month later, and (b) the fact that Fargo performs a nightly re-optimization. But the gross numbers like my weighted average performance should be quite accurate.

It's not that older games have more or less weight, it's about tabulating your entire body of work. All games have the same weight.

Continue performing at that level and your Fargo will keep climbing

You probably have some very low performing matches in there dragging you down
 
From the FargoRate website: "... the weight of a match towards a players rating diminishes over time. The end result is that more recent matches have a greater influence on a player's rating than do older matches." I don't remember exactly how the weights decrease with time.
Oh you are right, I was thinking purely about time, not about the most current range.
 
Speaking of Fargo rating, my robustness is only at 71. In our league, which normally reports Fargo ratings, I played 12 games in the playoffs to end our fall session the games were never reported to the Fargo system by the league president. I approached her and ask her why, and she didn't have a reason besides that she didn't want to and wasn't going to do it. Isn't that her responsibility to make sure all games get posted into the Fargo system? Is there any way I can go around her and enter my games manually?
 
there is a bca scoring app that once entered the games show in the system and the fargo and robust are updated next morning
 
Speaking of Fargo rating, my robustness is only at 71. In our league, which normally reports Fargo ratings, I played 12 games in the playoffs to end our fall session the games were never reported to the Fargo system by the league president. I approached her and ask her why, and she didn't have a reason besides that she didn't want to and wasn't going to do it. Isn't that her responsibility to make sure all games get posted into the Fargo system? Is there any way I can go around her and enter my games manually?
I believe in order for league data to be included in your Fargo rating, the league must use the Fargo reporting system, LMS. If your league is using that, it should be uploaded automatically.
 
In July 2023 I began tracking my Fargo performance rating on a night-by-night basis. If anyone's curious, there's a simple spreadsheet under "files" at the "Oklahoma Poolplayers" Facebook group called pr.xls that can be used to compute this. Equivalently, DigitalPool will compute your "Effective Rating" for an event that includes Fargo ratings.

This is something I started doing doing for fun, so that I could derive stats like how I tended to perform in league vs tournaments, how many games I tend to play a month, how many games it takes to move my rating, etc.

Something that has stood out to me is how much "stickier" my Fargo rating is than I expected. In a nutshell:

RatingRobustness
July 20235181219
January 20245421724

Weighted (by number of games) average performance rating from July 2023 - January 2024: 575

In other words, over my last ~500 games over a 6 month period, I've performed at the level of a 575, yet my rating has only increased by 24 points from 518 to 542. Not what I would have expected! It really goes to show how big of an influence older games have on your rating. It retrospect, this probably shouldn't have been so surprising. Taken from the Fargo's explanation of their ab initio global optimization process:



I've been playing for 7 years, and playing in Fargo-reported events for 6 years, so the player I was 3 years ago is significantly different from the player I am today. It's wild to imagine that those games still contribute half-weight to my rating! As someone who's still improving at a relatively steady rate, my guess is that a non-trivial "rating gap" will persist up and until I hit a wall in my progression and I perform at a relatively stable level for 12 months. But this is just a gut feel; Fargo's optimization process is non-linear, and my gut take is based on thinking about the data linearly.

Lest this be interpreted as complaining: I love Fargo and what's it's done to add objectivity to the sport. Also, how can I complain that I still get to play in "550 & under" tournaments 😂

For anyone who's curious, here's my raw data:

PerformanceGames playedEventDate playedRatingRating change
518​
744​
9​
League
13-Jul-23​
520​
+2​
685​
9​
League
20-Jul-23​
522​
+2​
572​
9​
League
3-Aug-23​
522​
0​
541​
9​
League
10-Aug-23​
522​
0​
553​
9​
League
17-Aug-23​
522​
0​
542​
31​
Tournament
19-Aug-23​
522​
0​
456​
9​
Tournament
20-Aug-23​
522​
0​
630​
9​
League
24-Aug-23​
523​
+1​
544​
9​
League
31-Aug-23​
524​
+1​
784​
9​
League
7-Sep-23​
527​
+3​
555​
9​
League
21-Sep-23​
527​
0​
501​
9​
League
28-Sep-23​
528​
+1​
541​
9​
League
19-Oct-23​
528​
0​
587​
25​
Tournament
22-Oct-23​
528​
0​
413​
9​
League
26-Oct-23​
528​
0​
647​
9​
League
2-Nov-23​
529​
+1​
391​
13​
Tournament
4-Nov-23​
529​
0​
472​
9​
League
9-Nov-23​
528​
-1​
648​
33​
Tournament
10-Nov-23​
532​
+4​
633​
86​
Tournament
11-Nov-23​
541​
+9​
598​
25​
Tournament
15-Oct-23​
540​
0​
519​
37​
Tournament
15-Oct-23​
540​
-1​
491​
9​
League
16-Nov-23​
540​
0​
625​
9​
League
30-Nov-23​
540​
0​
511​
27​
Tournament
1-Dec-23​
540​
0​
368​
9​
League
7-Dec-23​
538​
-2​
561​
9​
League
14-Dec-23​
539​
+1​
632​
32​
Tournament
17-Dec-23​
541​
+2​
647​
5​
League
4-Jan-24​
542​
+1​
481​
5​
League
11-Jan-24​
542​
0​
539​
15​
Tournament
20-Jan-24​
542​
0​

There may be some minor inaccuracies in the raw data, as well as some oddities like (a) the fact that I played in a large BCA tournament in October that wasn't entered into the system until a month later, and (b) the fact that Fargo performs a nightly re-optimization. But the gross numbers like my weighted average performance should be quite accurate.
Whether or not the half-life of previous games is correctly set is unclear to me, but I do think it is important that there is an appropriate lookback. I once played a set of games with a player rated over 100 points higher than me. I won 15 games to 4. Every cockamamie shot I tried (usually because I had hooked myself) happened to work and I ran away with it. If my Fargo jumped 100 points after that set that would have been extraordinarily inaccurate because I've since lost sets to guys 100pts below me. But how much should my Fargo have jumped?

For how quickly Fargo ratings move, no matter what number one comes up with it will be a matter of debate. Maybe the half-life should be 18 months? Or just one year? Or maybe it should be based on games played instead of time, or at least, in addition to time? It would be interesting to hear from Mike how the three-year value was arrived at.

---------------------

As an aside, I do like the chart you posted above. Where do you get that data? I have the Fargo app but I can't really get anything other than my rating and my robustness. I'd love to be able to see a more granular and time-based breakdown.
 
Speaking of Fargo rating, my robustness is only at 71. In our league, which normally reports Fargo ratings, I played 12 games in the playoffs to end our fall session the games were never reported to the Fargo system by the league president. I approached her and ask her why, and she didn't have a reason besides that she didn't want to and wasn't going to do it. Isn't that her responsibility to make sure all games get posted into the Fargo system? Is there any way I can go around her and enter my games manually?
Our league doesn't enter the playoffs either. I suspect that it is because they would have to set up a special session or tournament in LMS. Just too much effort.
 
In July 2023 I began tracking my Fargo performance rating on a night-by-night basis.[...]

Weighted (by number of games) average performance rating from July 2023 - January 2024: 575

[...]
I get 565 for your last 500 games since July, with the 2nd 250 being far higher than the first (587 vs 543). You have to be a little careful with that weighted average.

If Gorst beats me 20-10, I'd be at 745, right?

If instead Gorst and I go 9-9 one day and then he beats me 11-1 the next, we're still at 20-10. Am I still at 745?

Or should we say I played 18 games at 845 speed and 12 games at 450 speed, which give a weighted average of 687.
 
Our league doesn't enter the playoffs either. I suspect that it is because they would have to set up a special session or tournament in LMS. Just too much effort.
Not really much effort at all for an experienced LMS user.

It gets a little trickier if you use a different score sheet for the playoff than the league season but still easily doable.

If you use the same score sheet as the league season just go to the schedule in LMS and manually add the matches to be played in the playoffs on the appropriate days. Repeat with the winners until the bracket is done.
 
Or should we say I played 18 games at 845 speed and 12 games at 450 speed, which give a weighted average of 687.
Nah, Gorst played 18 games at 450 speed.

Seriously, if any players performance can go +/- 50, then any match up could be +/-100. A few rolls here and there, that favor one opponent, and even equally matched players could still have a very one side match.

That's an interesting example. I'm not sure if fargo is a cumulatuve average of all individual games, giving you the 745, or if it groups them, giving a 687. At least with Gorst and other players of that caliber, I think the 745 may be more accurate.

Imagine you and Gorst are playing a race to 20. Gorst wins the lag and runs 6 racks, you run 9 racks, and then he runs another 3. It's getting late so you agree to finish the next day. Gorst puts together 5 racks. You win one and break dry. Gorst then runs the last 6. One dry break was a tremendous part of the difference. I think it depends on the game, in 9 ball, one or two missed shots can have a huge impact on the outcome.
 
I get 565 for your last 500 games since July, with the 2nd 250 being far higher than the first (587 vs 543). You have to be a little careful with that weighted average.

If Gorst beats me 20-10, I'd be at 745, right?

If instead Gorst and I go 9-9 one day and then he beats me 11-1 the next, we're still at 20-10. Am I still at 745?

Or should we say I played 18 games at 845 speed and 12 games at 450 speed, which give a weighted average of 687.
Do you know if the "performance" tab in Digital Pool brackets is accurate per tournament? Do they use your proper math, or something they made up which does not match how you would do it? Also do you know if some players in the bracket don't have a fargo, if that performance tab is automatically wrong, and possibly even wrong for all the players? I've seen some weird numbers in the performance tab of Digital Pool, that's why I'm asking.
 
Not really much effort at all for an experienced LMS user.

It gets a little trickier if you use a different score sheet for the playoff than the league season but still easily doable.

If you use the same score sheet as the league season just go to the schedule in LMS and manually add the matches to be played in the playoffs on the appropriate days. Repeat with the winners until the bracket is done.
Playoffs are totally different...instead of all players of each team playing each other, we play a race to 13 with the players rotating.
 
Do you know if the "performance" tab in Digital Pool brackets is accurate per tournament? Do they use your proper math, or something they made up which does not match how you would do it? Also do you know if some players in the bracket don't have a fargo, if that performance tab is automatically wrong, and possibly even wrong for all the players? I've seen some weird numbers in the performance tab of Digital Pool, that's why I'm asking.
I never even noticed that tab before. It said I performed at +88 the other day. I guess my hats work is paying off.
 
Playoffs are totally different...instead of all players of each team playing each other, we play a race to 13 with the players rotating.
You need to build a new score sheet in the LMS division settings. You also have to change a couple of other settings.

Probably easiest to just start a new division called "Playoffs" or something like that and set it up accordingly.
Shouldn't take over 10 minutes or so.

If the LMS person gets stuck call Lance at LMS support. He is more than happy to help get it set up. Don't be shy, that's part of what those league fees cover is his time.
 
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