Swing Speed

[SpiderWebComm]

I keep having people come up to me saying, "Dave, you hit way too hard." To me, however, I stoke at a medium speed pretty much all of the time (I wonder what people would think if I'm trying to stroke hard). I hear it so often, I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

Mind you, I don't miss more than anyone - actually, I tend to get out well. Even if I have a real shallow cut into the side....you hear a big *WHAP* when the ball goes in. What I do is a slow take-away, and I feel as though I let gravity take over from the pinnacle of my back-swing. The result is a very fast shot from many people's standards.

I stun the CB around with speed. I might punch a CB a foot in one direction or another and hit the OB pretty firm. The next person might hit 1/10 the speed and spin the CB that same distance.

My question is: At what point do you make speed adjustments and hold back? Assuming you're pocketing balls well, is there an advantage to one way or the other? Like I said, to me.... I'm just stroking "medium" and it's normal. To the next guy, they can't BELIEVE I make what I do and think I'd be way better if I toned it down. The problem is.... when I purposely stroke slow, I feel as though my muscles are taking over and not "gravity" and I stroke crooked and bit*h my shot. No matter if I have a 1' shot or a 7' shot, my ball speed is def considered firm. What do you guys do????

Dave

 

[cajunbarboxplyr]

since I mainly play on bar tables... Depending on the table itself....is how I adjust my Cue Speed. That nap requires you to hit a little more firm to get the cueball to go around 3 or more rails and them great tables covered in the great fast simonis requires jsut pocket speed......So for me its jsut depending..

 

[Craig Fales]

I never got in that situation myself...what you need to do is some speed control drills...here is one that will test your pluck...put a ball on the foot spot and with the CB straight out from the corner pocket shoot it in and draw back 6~7 inches. Without touching the CB put another ball on the spot and shoot again, drawing back. Repeat as many balls as you can without ever touching the CB and not getting out of line. It's reputed that pros can get around 5 or 6 balls before the cueball gets too out of line to keep shooting. My personal best is 14 so who knows.

In your poll you left out the option for "I shoot at the speed that the shot dictates".

 

[Ant812]

i try to shoot as hard as position dictates, if i were to shoot as perfect as i would like to someday, all shots would be pocket speed.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I never got in that situation myself...what you need to do is some speed control drills...here is one that will test your pluck...put a ball on the foot spot and with the CB straight out from the corner pocket shoot it in and draw back 6~7 inches. Without touching the CB put another ball on the spot and shoot again, drawing back. Repeat as many balls as you can without ever touching the CB and not getting out of line. It's reputed that pros can get around 5 or 6 balls before the cueball gets too out of line to keep shooting. My personal best is 14 so who knows.

In your poll you left out the option for "I shoot at the speed that the shot dictates".

That's what I was referring to w/ option 4. My CB speed control is fine. If I want to draw a foot - no prob. I just might hit 1/2 of low and come through the CB with some force... I'm not hitting 2 tips of low with a slow stroke.

 

[cubc]

That's what I was referring to w/ option 4. My CB speed control is fine. If I want to draw a foot - no prob. I just might hit 1/2 of low and come through the CB with some force... I'm not hitting 2 tips of low with a slow stroke.

So do you have a hard time adjusting to different tables / pockets? Different tables and different pockets require subtle changes depending on how the pockets are cut, how tight they are, how new the felt is, how deep the shelf is, etc.

Back in the days I remember TJ Davis throwing out balls and playing shape using a break power stroke and then doing it again using slow finesse and middle ground as well. He could draw a foot whether he used a slow smooth stroke or slammed it like no other. He had some wicked control.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

So do you have a hard time adjusting to different tables / pockets? Different tables and different pockets require subtle changes depending on how the pockets are cut, how tight they are, how new the felt is, how deep the shelf is, etc.

Back in the days I remember TJ Davis throwing out balls and playing shape using a break power stroke and then doing it again using slow finesse and middle ground as well. He could draw a foot whether he used a slow smooth stroke or slammed it like no other. He had some wicked control.

I don't have a hard time adjusting to tables / pockets. Obviously if pockets are sub 4.5", I slow the shot up some. My table is 760 Simonis, and I still control the CB with speed. I feel a lot better w/ control--- the slower it gets.

My purpose for posting the poll was I was curious if anyone else played with that style, or if I was really doing something wrong.

I'll try to post a youtube video later today.

 

[PoolSponge]

Hey SWC,

I have a feeling that you have played snooker. That is the typical type of shooting style found in many snooker players. I bet your "hard" stroke is probably not slash hard, rather, a pure delivery with speed regulated by the back stroke and subsequent follow through.

When I watch a snooker player hit a shot they always deliver with a confident and firm stroke. Not hitting the shot hard, simply as hard as required for the required distance and cue ball control. I hit similarly.

I have noticed many pool players use a type of "slip stroke" like SVB where the stroke seems to be less about how hard you strike the ball and more about the steady speed of the stroke and the elongated follow through most probably due to the Phillipino stroke style which is currently dominating the world.

Personally, I strike firm and can adjust to use other strokes to hit a variety of shots. If I need to slide a ball off the rail and in I use a slower swing that won't punch the cueball and allow me to hit that shot. That said, the tables I play on typically have a variety of drifts and rolls and usually don't play very fast so you need to use a firm stroke to keep the shot online.

Here is a video of me shooting (all be it poorly) and you can see how I try to deliver a firm hit, but one that I do not consider "hard".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87mrmcxgnnA&eurl=http://www.youtube.com/user/jasonplayspool

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hey SWC,

I have a feeling that you have played snooker. That is the typical type of shooting style found in many snooker players. I bet your "hard" stroke is probably not slash hard, rather, a pure delivery with speed regulated by the back stroke and subsequent follow through.

When I watch a snooker player hit a shot they always deliver with a confident and firm stroke. Not hitting the shot hard, simply as hard as required for the required distance and cue ball control. I hit similarly.

I have noticed many pool players use a type of "slip stroke" like SVB where the stroke seems to be less about how hard you strike the ball and more about the steady speed of the stroke and the elongated follow through most probably due to the Phillipino stroke style which is currently dominating the world.

Personally, I strike firm and can adjust to use other strokes to hit a variety of shots. If I need to slide a ball off the rail and in I use a slower swing that won't punch the cueball and allow me to hit that shot. That said, the tables I play on typically have a variety of drifts and rolls and usually don't play very fast so you need to use a firm stroke to keep the shot online.

Here is a video of me shooting (all be it poorly) and you can see how I try to deliver a firm hit, but one that I do not consider "hard".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87mrmcxgnnA&eurl=http://www.youtube.com/user/jasonplayspool

I do love snooker, although I started as a pool player. I learned how to play snooker within the last 2 years. Your description is very similar to how I play. One think I'd like to add is I have a long stroke and a long bridge--so when I pull back the trigger, there's a slight pause/transition and then it's nearly a throw-stroke (not a slip stroke) from there.

I usually don't like starting threads - but this one is bugging me.

 

[Kent]

If you hit a ball at pocket speed( i.e., just hard enough to have the ball drop into the pocket) you will likely find that you are sometimes making balls that would otherwise rattle in the pocket when you hit at your fast speed.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

If you hit a ball at pocket speed( i.e., just hard enough to have the ball drop into the pocket) you will likely find that you are sometimes making balls that would otherwise rattle in the pocket when you hit at your fast speed.

Do you find it's easier to stroke straight at pocket speed than firmer? That should have been my poll question, actually. I screwed up.

 

[Cornerman]

I keep having people come up to me saying, "Dave, you hit way too hard." To me, however, I stoke at a medium speed pretty much all of the time (I wonder what people would think if I'm trying to stroke hard). I hear it so often, I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

You're most likely doing nothing wrong. It's a common saying, with good intentions. It's a good reminder when we start getting loose. But, for the most part, most players who have a depth of experience know what "hitting too hard" means.

Even the most well meaning instructors, great instructors, overuse the "you hit too hard" advice. They themselves hit the balls with the speed that's necessary for the shot and position all the time.

Fred

 

[Kent]

Assuming the table is level, I don't feel the need to stroke fast to stroke straight. If I try to really power the ball, that is when any stroke flaws I have tend to show up. I believe I am as accurate with a soft soft stroke as I am with medium. I believe many players adopt a faster stroke to compendate for the table not being level. In addition, playing on bar tables with wider pcokets is much more forgiving than a table with tight pockets.

 

[BRKNRUN]

My swing speed is between 109 - 112......(Oh you mean pool swing speed)


You know...It appears as if Earl hits them farily firm for the most part...yet he is considered on of the best shot makers in the world.


I find that I adjust to the speed of the table... on slower tables (my house) I tend to get a little firmer with shots...seems like when you end up in those shallow angles were you need to punch it in to get the ball to the other side of the table that shot carries over to the rest of your game.......meaning you start to hit all your shots a bit firmer.

When I am on tables that are very fast and it takes little effort to move the ball to the other side I tend to hit all my other shots the same "softer" way.

I do practice sometimes where I try to play as quiet as possible...(becuase the wife is asleep in the next room)...when I do that I find myself trying to get better angles on shots to avoid having to hit the ball to firm...(becuase it is more noisy)..........I think practicing that way helps my overall game regarding "position play"

I guess ..if you have to hit too many "firm" shots...your may not be playing playing "ideal" position....That is usually the case for me...I tend to get a bit lazy on position play and wind up having to "work" the CB when if I had just planned a bit better I would have a more "natural" angle.

 

[RRfireblade]

#4 , the shot type and position needed are generally the decieders.

But I'll add that the table is a big part of the equation. Some tables , I won't say tight cause there's more to tight than just that but . . . , just won't take too firm a ball. Some tables I won't slow roll on regardless and some , altho rare , are more forgiving on a firm hit ball than pocket speed.

IMO.

 

[highrun55]

This is my opinion and mine only, 95% of the players in my room shoot to hard, even the good ones.

I believe in shooting softer and using more follow thru. I can go anywhere on the table that way.

But what do I know. LOL

highrun55

 

[BRKNRUN]

This is my opinion and mine only, 95% of the players in my room shoot to hard, even the good ones.

I believe in shooting softer and using more follow thru. I can go anywhere on the table that way.

But what do I know. LOL

highrun55

You know I have to think that the cue weighting is somehow involved in this...

What I mean by that is that a front loaded cue vs a back loaded cue require a bit of a different stroke to apply action to the CB.

I can't explain the science behind it...(It is just more of a feeling that I get).

I think if you don't use a smooth stroke with a front loaded cue you don't get the action on the CB.

A more Butt heavy cue seems to require a different type of swing to load the action transfer to the CB...

I am sure that people will read this and go "huh" WTF is he talking about....It is hard to explain...but there is a distinct difference in the way the stroke needs to be applied to get action on the CB (at least to me)

I think there is a possiblity that a Butt heavy cue could lead to more of a power stroke and the front heavy cue could lend itself to a more softer stroke.....(Just my whacky perception)

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You know I have to think that the cue weighting is somehow involved in this...

What I mean by that is that a front loaded cue vs a back loaded cue require a bit of a different stroke to apply action to the CB.

I can't explain the science behind it...(It is just more of a feeling that I get).

I think if you don't use a smooth stroke with a front loaded cue you don't get the action on the CB.

A more Butt heavy cue seems to require a different type of swing to load the action transfer to the CB...

I am sure that people will read this and go "huh" WTF is he talking about....It is hard to explain...but there is a distinct difference in the way the stroke needs to be applied to get action on the CB (at least to me)

I think there is a possiblity that a Butt heavy cue could lead to more of a power stroke and the front heavy cue could lend itself to a more softer stroke.....(Just my whacky perception)

I need to post a video of my playing. You'll see I'm not really stroking hard (in my opinion), the ball just flies in firmly. I play with a Lambros that might be weighted scientifically perfect - one of the best hitting cues I ever laid my hands on. When I say I let the cue go w/ gravity, as I feel my forearm drop (not my elbow), I accelerate at that speed for nearly every shot. I'll try to post a short youtube clip when i get home from work.

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

Bang

I'd rather fire it in.
This is a good thread and most of my opinions have been expressed
by others already. (without my permission)
cOOp

 

[Williebetmore]

I keep having people come up to me saying, "Dave, you hit way too hard." .......Assuming you're pocketing balls well, is there an advantage to one way or the other? ...... What do you guys do????

Dave

Dave,
I've discussed this with several pro players; I always find the responses interesting but conflicting (everyone will try to justify their way of doing it).

The road players say to hit the ball hard enough to negate any table roll, and hard enough to take away any nerves (nervous tremors seem much more noticeable on the slow rolling shots). Still, they hit ONLY hard enough to get whitey where it belongs, using the slowest speed possible within the medium range.

The old school players insist that there is only one correct speed; and that is AS SLOW AS POSSIBLE to still get whitey where it belongs (assuming equipment is perfect; even they will adapt to a rolling table by hitting firmer than usual). They admit that the advantage to doing this only comes up a few times in a hundred balls; but over a lifetime making your living at the game, even the slightest edge is important as breathing to them.

My personal decision has been to try to use the medium soft stroke as much as possible, use the very softest stroke that will pocket the ball and still get whitey where it needs to be, and actively practice the slow rolling style that is essential to master for top 14.1.

The exception to the rule is on game ball. If I have a fairly easy shot; I try to rocket it in for it's psychological effect on the opponent.

P.S. - it's important to know your own capabilities; a road player took 10 balls, had me pocket them and try to stun the cue ball forward 6 inches; then had me do 10 balls just slow rolling them. It is fairly impressive how many players will get much better position slow rolling than hitting the more powerful "stun forward" shot.