T.O.I by randyg

understanding how to blend the shot speed, deflection, shot angle, and tip target

You and I had it wrong. See post 255, 256, and one before this.

Using spin to pocket balls is going to make the game much more difficult.

Although it's true that TOI puts pocket acceptance spin on the object ball, it's still just a positive "side effect". Concentrating on this side effect instead of understanding how to blend the shot shot speed, deflection rate, shot angle, and tip target is not a good idea from my experience....not a good idea at all.
 
Naji, in your post you said to use outside english when cutting a ball along the rail because the pocket plays smaller. This is backwards.

Sorry you are right always inside on CB to spin ball in, but depending on direction, the inside could be spining CW or CCW rotation.
 
Using spin to pocket balls is going to make the game much more difficult.

Although it's true that TOI puts pocket acceptance spin on the object ball, it's still just a positive "side effect". Concentrating on this side effect instead of understanding how to blend the shot shot speed, deflection rate, shot angle, and tip target is not a good idea from my experience....not a good idea at all.

Agree, you good, no problem.
 
Naji, in your post you said to use outside english when cutting a ball along the rail because the pocket plays smaller. This is backwards.

Mitchxout, finally i corrected myself, and discovered it all:

OB spins for three reasons, one due to collusion induced spin (CIS), and spin from CB induced spin lets call it CBIS, and due to impacting rail at angel (large a bit) will call it RIS.


When you cut a ball spin gets put on OB but it is dependent on cut angle and usually does not take much of CB spin to cancel it; this is always canceled using inside, CJ system TOI will take care of this CIS and also cancels the spin that the CB get after collision. This CIS is not much and will not help pocket a ball much unless OB near a pocket and very fast shot..fair!!

Now there is the CBIS, this is naturally apply opposite spin on OB especially when CB is in stun mode; now this CBIS is a lot and actually kill the CIS and reverse it at times; so in order to spin a ball into pocket OB must have inside on it; therefore, CB must have outside to further help spin the ball into pocket, or what Buddy call it helping english. Sure if pockets are big no problem, but if tight then that would certainly help when pockets near rail.

Hope that helps..

For RIS will keep for another post.

Later
 
The beauty of this system is not only the accuracy of the banks, it's control

The greatest bankers in the world all know how to create a "pocket zone," and bend them into the pocket. When I used to watch "Bugs" in Detroit at THE RACK it was amazing to see how accurate he was, not only in making the bank shots, it was his cue ball control that impressed me the most. I remember watching his eyes and they were glued to a specific part of the cue ball and he didn't seem to care much about the object ball.....I had no idea what he did, just that it worked REALLY WELL.

Bugs would get in "Banking Zones" where he would make Grady Matthews (who I saw him play on several occasion for BIG money) throw up his hands in frustration. No matter where he put "Bugs" the table would be the same when he returned - a ball in Bug's hole and the cue ball behind another ball (usually frozen).

This seemed like some kind of "magic" to me and I didn't see it again until I played Vernon Elliot in Indianapolis. We played "Two Shot Push Out" which requires you to play a LOT of banks, and Vernon could REALLY bank. He would do the same thing, bank at the shot and if he missed I was always snookered behind another ball. This is why TWO SHOT rules are so much better than ONE FOUL (imo), the "Two Way Shot"....where you shoot an offensive shot, and at the same time play safe if you miss......with a shot on your next ball if you make the BANK.....this is an amazing art form that you don't see as much now that "One Foul" is the game of choice.

The next time I saw this was playing Tony Fargo on the 5/10 in Dallas. His banking ability was amazing and I noticed something familiar about his banking.....he also seemed to aim at the cue ball, not the object ball. We played one pocket for over 12 hours and I managed to win over $7,000. however he out banked me by a wide margin. It was a classic "Bank Expert Against Shot Maker," and it was my "lucky day" (as Efren would say)

After the match was over my friend Roger Griffis came over to me and said "CJ, Tony will show us his Bank System for $700," ...I was unprepared for this, however, it got my full attention. "Do you think he'll show us what he really does, and if so, do you think we can do it?" Roger said "man, he's a good guy, he just wants to make some money back so he can go play someone in Houston, I'll vouch for him and I'll go in halves with you if you want."

I agreed and we both paid him $350. and he proceeded to show us his system for banking. It opened my eyes to some things that I had never noticed on a pool table before, how the cue ball connects to the diamonds. I caught on to his system and incorporated my own style and before long I used it to win $30,000 of Amarillo Slim playing one pocket giving him 14/5 in Baton Rouge Louisiana at Fly Boy's hang out where the everyone was gambling "sky high".

My TOI Banking System is a fusion between TOI, what I saw Bugs do in Detroit, Vernon Elliot do in Indianapolis and Tony Fargo do on that 5/10 in Dallas. I call it the Touch of Inside Pivot System (TIPS), and after producing the TOI video last month I discovered the missing link to teach this system and now I'm ready to release it to the "Pool World".

The filming will be finished up this weekend and the post production will start immediately. We will put together a demonstration video to give a preview of this system and we have a way to label each shot so you know the alignment (to the object bal), the shot speed, and the cue ball target on each and every Bank. This gives the best way to duplicate what I'm doing.

This will enable anyone, with some systematic practice (there's a drill I will share that will speed up this process considerably) to bank like you've never banked before. The beauty of this system is not only the accuracy of the banks, it's also the cue ball control generated by blending the SPEED - SHOT ANGLE - and CUE BALL TARGET into one. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
 
CJ...
Do you believe that the cue ball deflects (or whatever word we settled on) the same amount no matter the degree of english we use? In other words, does the cueball deflect, say 2' for 1/4 tip of english, and 2' for 3 full tips of english? (those are made up numbers, btw).

I don't know the answer...never really thought of it, actually, but if that is true, then TOI is a remarkably ingenious system. By favoring the inside, you will ALWAYS get 2' of deflection. If I use left, or right, or center, I can only predict large amounts of left or right with accuracy. Hitting centerball would be a crapshoot.


On the other hand, if deflection varies with tip offset, I fail to understand how 'eliminating one side of the fairway' (TOI) helps all that much.


Just curious.
 
I ALWAYS want to know which side of center I'm hitting so I can have that feedback

CJ...
Do you believe that the cue ball deflects (or whatever word we settled on) the same amount no matter the degree of english we use? In other words, does the cueball deflect, say 2' for 1/4 tip of english, and 2' for 3 full tips of english? (those are made up numbers, btw).

I don't know the answer...never really thought of it, actually, but if that is true, then TOI is a remarkably ingenious system. By favoring the inside, you will ALWAYS get 2' of deflection. If I use left, or right, or center, I can only predict large amounts of left or right with accuracy. Hitting centerball would be a crapshoot.


On the other hand, if deflection varies with tip offset, I fail to understand how 'eliminating one side of the fairway' (TOI) helps all that much.


Just curious.


No, it deflects more the further you go to the inside, however It won't deflect two feet (2').....I think you met 2" (inches).

Hitting center is only a "crap shoot" because you "can" hit either side of the center, therefore deflect (veer) the cue ball in two different directions. So if undercut a shot you may not have the feedback necessary to know right away why you didn't make the shot.

I ALWAYS want to know which side of center I'm hitting so I can have that feedback and if I don't make the shot it's essential for me to over cut it. This is easy to adjust for, under cutting on the other hand is a different story and it's clear on my TOI DVD why {concerning the "3 Part Pocket System"}.
 
Thanks CJ...I actually meant 'degrees', since it is more of a radial measurement, but that is only semantics...you answered my question.

One more follow on question. I'm sure it has been answered before, but could not find it, as all of your threads have a lot of posts.

Why inside and not outside? Not that outside is better or inside is better, but why did you choose inside? Is there a benefit to inside over outside, or did you just choose one and stick with it?
 
I want to always favor overcutting the ball rather than undercutting the ball.

Thanks CJ...I actually meant 'degrees', since it is more of a radial measurement, but that is only semantics...you answered my question.

One more follow on question. I'm sure it has been answered before, but could not find it, as all of your threads have a lot of posts.

Why inside and not outside? Not that outside is better or inside is better, but why did you choose inside? Is there a benefit to inside over outside, or did you just choose one and stick with it?

"Inside" deflects the cue ball away from the object ball, so it cuts MORE...."Outside" deflects in to the object ball so it cuts LESS.

I want to always favor overcutting the ball rather than undercutting the ball. Most players feel like they "dogged" the shot when they undercut it and it also has less probability of getting "safe"......overcutting is often referred to as "missing on the Pro side".

So, yes, I use Inside for an important reason, it's also possible to get anywhere on the table using it on most shots, with "outside" this isn't true, there's several shots I can set up that you can't get to using outside english, or hitting that side of the cue ball.....you simply have to hit "less" of the object ball since it deflects into it, as opposed to away.
 
I equate outside as spin to throw the ball. A little too much or not enough outside could cause a problem. For the most part, using a small amount of inside for deflection is easier to judge than how much stroke I put on the cue ball or worrying about table conditions.

Best,
Mike
 
assure that your cue is perfectly straight and the TOI will be pure and precise

I equate outside as spin to throw the ball. A little too much or not enough outside could cause a problem. For the most part, using a small amount of inside for deflection is easier to judge than how much stroke I put on the cue ball or worrying about table conditions.

Best,
Mike

The one thing that needs to be calibrated (right away) with deflection is the Shot speed. Acceleration is always the key component from my personal experience with my game and most students of the Game.

I have found after doing more and more teaching that I first have to keep students from Pivoting because it causes them to under cut shots.

If you are undercutting any shots using TOI you are probably not moving your cue parallel to the inside. This will cause you to spin the cue ball and the deflection will not perform correctly to create the proper angle.

This can be easily fixed, however, you must make sure your cue tip (the top/middle) is perfectly square to the inside of the cue ball, this will assure that your cue is perfectly straight and the TOI will be pure and precise. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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TOI is also on the right side of the Cue Ball - it aligns with the natural connection

Thanks CJ...I actually meant 'degrees', since it is more of a radial measurement, but that is only semantics...you answered my question.

One more follow on question. I'm sure it has been answered before, but could not find it, as all of your threads have a lot of posts.

Why inside and not outside? Not that outside is better or inside is better, but why did you choose inside? Is there a benefit to inside over outside, or did you just choose one and stick with it?

I gave you the long version of why I use Inside, and this came up in a recent lesson as well.

If you're cutting a ball to the right the connection of the CB/OB would be the left side of the object ball and the right side of the Cue Ball. The TOI point is also on the right side of the Cue Ball - so the TOI aligns with the natural connection of the shot.

This will make a lot of sense if you're currently experimenting with the TOI. These two points have something in common and when you experience this connection (when aligning the CB/OB above the shot) you'll immediately see what I'm referring to.

You're naturally aligning (with your tip, which is what contacts the Cue Ball) the side of the Cue Ball that's contacting the Object Ball when you use the TOI. When using outside english you are aligning the side of the Cue Ball that's NOT hitting the object ball, so there's no natural connection that can be seen.

'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com
 
I've been working with TOI for a few weeks and realize it's super important to accelerate through the cue ball. I believe it helps "push" the cue ball over to facilitate the cue. I'm only in the learning phase so I could be wrong.
 
I've been working with TOI for a few weeks and realize it's super important to accelerate through the cue ball. I believe it helps "push" the cue ball over to facilitate the cue. I'm only in the learning phase so I could be wrong.
thank you for sharing that and resurrecting a 12 year old thread...... ;)
 
I've been working with TOI for a few weeks and realize it's super important to accelerate through the cue ball. I believe it helps "push" the cue ball over to facilitate the cue. I'm only in the learning phase so I could be wrong.
I suspect that if you are playing better it's because you are paying attention to the shot and it has nothing to do with TOI. I think that's often the case with trying new things whether it's a new cue or a new grip.
 
I've been working with TOI for a few weeks and realize it's super important to accelerate through the cue ball. I believe it helps "push" the cue ball over to facilitate the cue. I'm only in the learning phase so I could be wrong.
1. TOI is... controversial.

2. "Accelerating through" the CB doesn't do anything special for the hit - it only ensures you're not decelerating before impact (which can throw your accuracy and speed off).

pj
chgo
 
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