Table Management Test

[Blackjack]

Here is a test that I give to my students - its a test in table management and decision making (Dana, this is the layout I had you work on when you were here a few months ago). There are no wrong answers - It's just a test in your ability to make the right decisions at the right time and manage the layout correctly. There is really nothing clustered up, you have a few break ball options and a few key ball options, you just have to make the right decisions along the way. This test is better taken ON THE TABLE - not on paper - for obvious reasons.

CueTable Help

What you will see, is that when you are faced with multiple break ball and key ball options, multiple shot options, etc, your decision making actually becomes much more difficult. This is because you have to eliminate some of those options along the way, and its sort of like eliminating names from a guest list - you hate to have to do it, but you must make a decision. With every ball you eliminate, you have to know that you are making the correct choice in relation to what shots keep you in your comfort zone.

Try this out and let me know what solutions you come up with - and explain why you made those decisions. Like I said, there are no wrong answers, it's just amazing at how some players choose one option, and other players will go in the other direction and still end up in great shape.

 

[LoGiC]

Being right handed, I'd try to make the 1 my break ball, with the 8 as my key ball. But working out this pattern, I'd probably end up with the 7 since thats how I've been playing lately

 

[dmgwalsh]

Here is a test that I give to my students - its a test in table management and decision making (Dana, this is the layout I had you work on when you were here a few months ago). There are no wrong answers - It's just a test in your ability to make the right decisions at the right time and manage the layout correctly. There is really nothing clustered up, you have a few break ball options and a few key ball options, you just have to make the right decisions along the way. This test is better taken ON THE TABLE - not on paper - for obvious reasons.

CueTable Help

What you will see, is that when you are faced with multiple break ball and key ball options, multiple shot options, etc, your decision making actually becomes much more difficult. This is because you have to eliminate some of those options along the way, and its sort of like eliminating names from a guest list - you hate to have to do it, but you must make a decision. With every ball you eliminate, you have to know that you are making the correct choice in relation to what shots keep you in your comfort zone.

Try this out and let me know what solutions you come up with - and explain why you made those decisions. Like I said, there are no wrong answers, it's just amazing at how some players choose one option, and other players will go in the other direction and still end up in great shape.

David : I'll take a stab. I like the 8,7 setup so I'd try to save that for last.

3, bounce out a little for the 14 up top, stop and shoot the 10 with low bringing it up past the 13, 13 in the same pocket as the 10, bounce out and get the 1, 5 same pocket as 3,10, and 13, 8 in the side and 7 break.

I actually don't really like shooting up table on the 14 but it clears things up quicker, I think and I should be able to get on it easy. the 10 and 13 could be reversed depending on how it looked.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I agree that the 3 to the 14 is the way to start. On the 3, I would make sure to err on the side of going too far, so that if I did, I'd be perfect on the 13.

If there is too much angle on the 3 (on a real table) to accomplish these shots, then I would consider going two rails with soft inside on the 3 to stop myself on the back of the 13. Either way, the 10 will be off the table as soon as possible. That is my only goal.

Other than that, the 8-7 is a good end-pattern, but so is the 1-5-7.

One final thing - even if the angle on the 3 is perfect to slightly bump the 14 and just play the 10 from there, I would never consider that. It's too easy to have the 14 tie up to the 13. Also, you could baby it and have your cueball frozen to the bottom of the 14. Now, you still have the 10, but you can't do anything other than roll the cueball. I've seen runs end with wide open tables due to this one miscalculation.

Thanks David - I had fun thinking about this.

- Steve

 

[Blackjack]

I agree that the 3 to the 14 is the way to start. On the 3, I would make sure to err on the side of going too far, so that if I did, I'd be perfect on the 13.

If there is too much angle on the 3 (on a real table) to accomplish these shots, then I would consider going two rails with soft inside on the 3 to stop myself on the back of the 13. Either way, the 10 will be off the table as soon as possible. That is my only goal.

Other than that, the 8-7 is a good end-pattern, but so is the 1-5-7.

One final thing - even if the angle on the 3 is perfect to slightly bump the 14 and just play the 10 from there, I would never consider that. It's too easy to have the 14 tie up to the 13. Also, you could baby it and have your cueball frozen to the bottom of the 14. Now, you still have the 10, but you can't do anything other than roll the cueball. I've seen runs end with wide open tables due to this one miscalculation.

Thanks David - I had fun thinking about this.

- Steve

There are several ways to do this, and here is one approach -

the 10 ball is blocking the 13 and 14 - I don't really want to play those balls down table - so here is one of the ways to get rid of the 10 ball early and open up that pocket. Nothing really hard here in the way I diagram it.

Like I said, this is just one way, there are a lot of other solutions to this one.


8 Pages...

CueTable Help

 

[Steve Lipsky]

You are right - better on a table, lol. My mind's eye saw that 5 in the side as a decent cut, and therefore not playable as the first shot. If it's straight in, I agree totally, the 5-10-3 is the optimal way.

 

[dmgwalsh]

You are right - better on a table, lol. My mind's eye saw that 5 in the side as a decent cut, and therefore not playable as the first shot. If it's straight in, I agree totally, the 5-10-3 is the optimal way.

I held up a piece of paper to the screen and thought the 5 might be kind of a thin cut.

 

[Blackjack]

I held up a piece of paper to the screen and thought the 5 might be kind of a thin cut.

The 5 is straight into the side - nothing is blocking the ball or the pocket- you just need to snip it in - if you have trouble with these shots - try some reverse psychology - TRY TO MISS IT BY A HAIR - it'll drop for you every single time.

 

[CueAndMe]

I haven't read anyone's replies yet. I figured I'd lay mine out there and then see what others have posted. My cueball is moving a great distance on this layout, but I went about it the way I normally would at the table. I would look for safe zones where there were a few options of shots to take.

CueTable Help

 

[CueAndMe]

I just read what others have done. Very interesting how different people go about it in different ways. I always feel a little claustrophobic in the tight areas like the space around the 10,14, and 13, so my first thought was to take care of the 10 and get to center table.

 

[Blackjack]

I just read what others have done. Very interesting how different people go about it in different ways. I always feel a little claustrophobic in the tight areas like the space around the 10,14, and 13, so my first thought was to take care of the 10 and get to center table.

Actually, I thought you did very well until you got the last few balls -

Try to set up some easier position routes to get on your break ball. You ended up real nice on the last few balls - however IMO you went in the wrong direction...(JMO)

I would have stayed with the 7 as a break ball and went 1-5-13-7 ... its an easier pattern - that's just how I would do it - I'm not saying your way is wrong, I just prefer the other pattern.

In your diagram, that key ball shot from the 5 to the 1 is tricky, and chances are that you will roll too far on fast cloth.

REMEMBER THIS -If your cue ball is naturally going towards that rail, go ahead and use it, and come off of it for position on the break ball -
That's the smart way to play that shot if you have the correct angle.

 

[CueAndMe]

I would have stayed with the 7 as a break ball and went 1-5-13-7 ... its an easier pattern - that's just how I would do it - I'm not saying your way is wrong, I just prefer the other pattern.

In your diagram, that key ball shot from the 5 to the 1 is tricky, and chances are that you will roll too far on fast cloth.

REMEMBER THIS -If your cue ball is naturally going towards that rail, go ahead and use it, and come off of it for position on the break ball -
That's the smart way to play that shot if you have the correct angle.

You're right. The margin of error for falling on the 5 is too small now that I look at it again. Using the 13 as the key ball is much easier to fall on for a decent angle to get to the 7. Knowing that I would do the following instead. Off of the 14, I come too far for the 5 or 1 out of fear of having no shot if I'm short.

CueTable Help

 

[LoGiC]

The 5 is straight into the side - nothing is blocking the ball or the pocket- you just need to snip it in - if you have trouble with these shots - try some reverse psychology - TRY TO MISS IT BY A HAIR - it'll drop for you every single time.

My god- why didn't I think of that?!

Seriously, why are side pockets so nasty!? If I could shoot them, straight pool would be sooooooooo much easier. Alex used to be able to sink them eyes closed. "There's always a side pocket shot." That was his motto.

Montel, if you read this- I'm dragging you back from NYC and forcing you to teach me how you shot side pockets.

Back to the run out- I tried it, and found myself going 3(corner)-10(corner)-5(side)-8(side)-13(corner)-14(corner)-7(side). Sorry, I'll attempt to draw out the table later. The toughest part was the 5, needed to follow enough, but not too much for the 8. The not screwing myself on the 13-14 balls.

I lack consistency.

 

[Williebetmore]

Here is a test that I give to my students - its a test in table management and decision making (Dana, this is the layout I had you work on when you were here a few months ago). There are no wrong answers - It's just a test in your ability to make the right decisions at the right time and manage the layout correctly. There is really nothing clustered up, you have a few break ball options and a few key ball options, you just have to make the right decisions along the way. This test is better taken ON THE TABLE - not on paper - for obvious reasons.

CueTable Help

What you will see, is that when you are faced with multiple break ball and key ball options, multiple shot options, etc, your decision making actually becomes much more difficult. This is because you have to eliminate some of those options along the way, and its sort of like eliminating names from a guest list - you hate to have to do it, but you must make a decision. With every ball you eliminate, you have to know that you are making the correct choice in relation to what shots keep you in your comfort zone.

Try this out and let me know what solutions you come up with - and explain why you made those decisions. Like I said, there are no wrong answers, it's just amazing at how some players choose one option, and other players will go in the other direction and still end up in great shape.

BJ,
I have only looked at the first post in this thread, didn't want to "cheat" on the exam. Tried the layout last night.

The layout looked good with the 7 as my next breakshot, and the 8 as a natural keyball. I am tall, so I do not mind the right sided breakshots, even though I am right handed (can easily stretch a diamond past the side pocket).

The trouble balls for me appeared to be the 10 and the 14; and I wanted to clear them as quickly as possible. I played the 3 and floated gently up toward the 14 (trying to get a nice angle on the 10). I figured if floated to far up, I would have the 5 as an insurance ball if the 14 obscured my view of the 10. The only thing that could go wrong would be to hit the 14 so hard it tied up with something else, so I erred on the side of hitting it a bit soft.

I ended up with a nice angle on the 10 (cue ball just below the 14 ball), and cut it in, coming off the side rail between the 14 and 13, trying for position on the 1 or the 5 in the bottom corner. I actually ticked the top of the 7 ball, but it hardly moved, and the cue ball was perfect for a shot on the 1. I shot the 1, drawing back a little to shoot the 5 in the top left corner, floating over for the 14 ball.

Here I changed my plan, as it seemed quite natural to pocket the 14, coming two rails for the 8 in the side, stopping for a nice angle on the 13 (my new key ball), drawing out for the 7 as my break shot. It all worked nicely.

As I looked back on it, the position of the 14 seems to lead naturally only to the 8 (unless you get on it while the 1 and the 5 are still there); so I probably should have planned on 8-13-7 as my final 3 balls way earlier. Really all I was thinking about to start was the last 2 balls, and the first 2 balls (with the thought of getting to the 10 and 14 any way I could as quickly as I could).

Pat Howey has recommended 3 ball patterns; but I still fail to do this a LOT. I guess I'll keep practicing. Thanks for posting this, let me know how I did....I'll read the rest of the thread now.

 

[Williebetmore]

Ouch,
I just read Blackjack's and Steve's comments.

In my defense, on the very tight table, that 5 ball in the side TERRIFIES me....very missable for me (even though it was my "insurance ball" for my very first shot ). I avoid those like the plague (though am often forced to take my medicine and shoot them anyway).

P.S. - I like Blackjacks pattern better than mine; I just don't look for patterns that start with shots like the 5; I need to broaden my horizons.

 

[Vahmurka]

As soon as I read Blackjack's note that the test is better taken at the table, I printed the layout and closed the thread without reading any further (not to be distracted and use my own thoughts). I was lucky to get a window in my super tough schedule during recent weeks - I haven't been playing for three weeks at least. So I decided to devote this opportunity to trying the offered test.
First of all I must confess this test was the best way to highlight how bad my 14.1 s**ks. I couldn't run the balls on my first attempt, and I blew the second, and third... Mostly because of decision making, then poor positioning. But then I caught the rythm and was able to perform finally.
PLEASE NOTE: a) my layouts have mupltiple pages so don't hesitate browsing through them. b) you were supposed to toggle grid on to see pocket lettering but upon posting I see there is no way to do it here, so top pockets are A-B-C, bottom are D-E-F. c) some layouts are messed up in last pages but I couldn't help dealing with it, so I surrendered, excuse me for that. And sorry I overloaded my post with Cuetable layouts - I'd better try to shoot a video with explanation but I think that's what everybody would wish to do though are unable to.

We have two potential break balls, 1 and 7. 3 is also an option but not my style of the shot to break with, and 13 could also be used, but when at the table I didn't think of it as a break ball. Only now when looking at the layout. Sometimes I regret there is no possibility to switch to overhead mode while playing - what the heck, it is possible even at Virtual Pool! Helps a lot, and without that I miss some easy solutions regardless of the game.
Actually I like 7 much more than 1 because it has nice selection of key balls - 8, 13, 1, even 3 if needed. So I built almost all my tries around the 7 as a break ball. (Though later I could choose between 1 and 7 sometimes)
Looking at the layout we can see that 14 is the nut to crack as it blocks a break ball. In turn, 14 is blocked by 10 which blocks 13 as well. So 10 is to be pocketed as soon as possible. Or - we have to play 13 and 14 to pocket C.
So I start with 3 and follow two rails for position on 10. Sometimes I finished pretty good on 13 in side pocket E or 14 in corner D.
So I continued either 13-10-14

CueTable Help

or 14-10-13

CueTable Help

or 13-14-10

CueTable Help

Another approach I tried was to play 13 and 14 to pocket C, play position with follow on the 1 to pocket D. I overran 1 to 5 and finished too close and with wrong angle than I desired so had to play shape on the 8 to pocket E instead of B.

CueTable Help

at some stage I noticed 8 to 14 can be played anytime. Yes you regret eliminating one of possible keyballs but from Grady Mathews's tapes I remember it is good to leave balls like 1 and 7 because they are both break balls and one serves as a key ball to another.
Here I wanted to play 14 in corner C but overran and was forced to play 5 in corner F instead.

CueTable Help

Here is an alternative run out I used (actually was forced to by my position play - ended straight on 10, then had to play stun from 14 to 1)

CueTable Help

To end my quest I decided to start not with 3 but with 5 ball in pocket B. Though that side pocket is a bit tough, especially on tight tables.
The only way to play it is making 10 right after the 5 with 1 or 2 rails position which could be a bit of not "straight pool style" Then we should either leave a shallow angle on the 3 to continue with 14 and 13 to corner C, or quite enough cut on the 3 to follow two rails around 14 and 13 to play them in corner A (since the 10 is gone already). Though playing around sometimes leads to cueball knocking off the 13 I never got in trouble with that.

CueTable Help

here goes second option

CueTable Help

I would ask Blackjack who is our mentor with this test, or Steve, or any decent straight pool player post some comments on my runouts (in case they are different from those posted earlier - which I'm anaware of at the moment of typing). Now I can read the whole thread and what others suggested to see how different it is and what I missed totally.

Blackjack, thank you very much for a golden opportunity to learn more! Every time you post something special here is very valuable, and this table management test is great. Hope there are more to follow.

 

[CueAndMe]

Vahmurka, thanks for being so thorough. I enjoy it when others get so enthusiastic about this stuff. The following is your 4th layout with the first page cut. You have to keep the page total at 8 or under otherwise the cuetable doesn't show more than 1 page in the forum. It happens to be my second favorite run of yours. I explain why below.

CueTable Help

This one below that you did was, in my opinion, the best because the position play was predictable. The zone that you landed in off of the 3 allows you to pick off the 10,14,13 in any order and continue your entire run on out. I actually think this is the best way I've seen in this thread yet. Very little chance of getting the cueball lost during the run.

CueTable Help

I don't like the ones where you go up to the 13 for the bottom side off of the 3, because an inch off and you're entire run from there has to change.

Thanks for your enthusiasm.

Edit: I just realized that the top run may be better than the bottom. They are pretty much the same run, but planning for the 14 up table I think is better because you have the 13 uptable if you overshoot. In the lower run, coming up for the 10 or 13 off of the 3, you could overshoot and have to alter the rest of your run.

 

[Vahmurka]

You have to keep the page total at 8 or under otherwise the cuetable doesn't show more than 1 page in the forum.

oh thanks I didn't know that. Thanks for changing it so that it has 8 instead of initial 9 pages so that everyone could see it in the forum.

This one below that you did was, in my opinion, the best because the position play was predictable. The zone that you landed in off of the 3 allows you to pick off the 10,14,13 in any order and continue your entire run on out.

Actually that finish straight on the 10 and possible 13 was accidental as I was trying to land somewhere on the 10. So it was just another option of running balls.

I don't like the ones where you go up to the 13 for the bottom side off of the 3, because an inch off and you're entire run from there has to change.

Sure and it was by no means planned. Another accident I just wanted to share. You are correct it is not a way to play this set-up, but to my surprize I finished pretty straight on 13 more often than not even when playing position on 10 intentionally. So, 10 is always there if you miss that line of perfection on 13

If I'm asked to pick one of those I provided I would choose top layout of your message but would prefer playing nice position on the 5 to play the 8 in top side rather than bottom That way it would be ideal for me.