Taper Machine...

Zims Rack

Zims Rack

Promoting the Cueing Arts
Silver Member
After repairing cues since 2000 and building cues the past 5 years on all Hightower lathes (Deluxe, Mid-Size & Inlay Machine), I've decided to take what I've learned from people, posts, and my personal knowledge and build my own "Tapering Machine". I have nothing against Hightower's equipment, I'm very happy with all of them... I'm just ready for some dedicated machines!

I'm not going to get into much detail at this point in the project, but will keep this thread updated as it's worth updating. I have been drawing the design in my head for a couple months, now have some things on paper, parts have been ordered and will start construction in a couple weeks.

There are a few people here on AZ that have suggested a few items, for that I deeply appreciate it and will thank you by name if all goes well (don't want to call you out if it doesn't work, haha!!)- you know who you are- Thanks!

Wish me luck!
Zim
 
Details?

Zim, can you tell us at least if you are building a cnc taper, or one that runs on a taper bar? What kind of cutter, saw blade or router with fly cutter?



Jim.
 
Mc2 said:
Zim, can you tell us at least if you are building a cnc taper, or one that runs on a taper bar? What kind of cutter, saw blade or router with fly cutter?

Jim.
Click to expand...

Manual, not CNC, ability to cut straight or taper, and will be using a router!

Zim
 
Good luck

Zim ,sounds fun please keep us updated I'v been thinking of doing the same thing myself .I was afraid of the time involved, I thought it might be better just to buy one .....Can't wait for the updates.....Ray
 
cuewould said:
Zim ,sounds fun please keep us updated I'v been thinking of doing the same thing myself .I was afraid of the time involved, I thought it might be better just to buy one .....Can't wait for the updates.....Ray
Click to expand...

I'm purchasing aluminum stock, all thread rod, 2 motors, 1 router w/bit, a few taig parts, the allen screws and doing the work myself. Thought it would be easier to have a machine/fabrication shop drill/tap everything for me, but I will get more satisfaction watching it work knowing that I designed and built it myself. I will keep a log of parts expenses and labor time involved.

Thanks for the interest!
Zim
 
Zimms

Sounds like fun!

Why build a manual machine?

With cnc you would get much more versatility, and it wouldn't be much harder to build.

Just a thought!
 
Not looking to offend anyone here and the only reason that I'm responding is because I also have a doweling machine in the works (back-burner for now).

When comparing manual to CNC, there is no comparison. $200 vs $2000.

The manual mach. I'm building is based on a HF wood lathe; the rest, eBay parts.
Thompson rod slider set-up w/trucks and a router.
Whether CNC or manual, you still need to load & unload the machine manually.
Once loaded, how hard is it to push the router down the rails? Add a second motor and a limit switch and you don't even have to push.
I'm thinking I could do 100 squares to dowels before lunch. That's more dowels than I'll use in a year.

I'm sorry but I don't understand the 'versatility' point. A dowel is a dowel. It's only requirements are that it needs to round and the same diameter on each end. Actually, a shaper will do the same thing if you're willing to shell-out the bucks for the cutter but most likely you'd still need a second operation on the dowel to make it perfectly round.

CNC has it's place in cue-building, I'm not denying that. Today's inlays would be impossible without it. That's where I see their versatility; unlimited design possibilities. Shaft tapers would fall under that heading. A dowel is a pretty simple design, even for a manual machine.

I'm content to stay with the manual machine for this application. That's an $1,800 difference that gets to stay in the bank.
 
KJ pretty much hit my answer on the head as far as CNC vs Manual.
IMO, CNC is for cutting inlays and maybe shafts, when it comes to what I'm building, a CNC is a waste of $. Plus I will have to learn how to use programs, etc.

My machine is designed to cut a taper on a butt, forearm, do trim ring billets and turn square to round (probably a few more operations that will show itself as I complete the machine).
 
Can't wait

Zim ,can you also post suppliers? And why you chose who you did? I would love to see some pics of your design and also changes that you have made along the way ......Good luck can't wait for the progress...Ray
 
Zims Rack said:
After repairing cues since 2000 and building cues the past 5 years on all Hightower lathes (Deluxe, Mid-Size & Inlay Machine), I've decided to take what I've learned from people, posts, and my personal knowledge and build my own "Tapering Machine". I have nothing against Hightower's equipment, I'm very happy with all of them... I'm just ready for some dedicated machines!

I'm not going to get into much detail at this point in the project, but will keep this thread updated as it's worth updating. I have been drawing the design in my head for a couple months, now have some things on paper, parts have been ordered and will start construction in a couple weeks.

There are a few people here on AZ that have suggested a few items, for that I deeply appreciate it and will thank you by name if all goes well (don't want to call you out if it doesn't work, haha!!)- you know who you are- Thanks!

Wish me luck!
Zim
Click to expand...

Zim,
The one thing I would suggest is rather than use a router for cutting, build it to use a saw. The saw machines have such superior cuts in comparison to a router, it's amazing. The saw will have about 5 times as many cuts per minute that the router with a much larger radius of cut. This results in less pressure, less heat, less chatter and ultimately much better results.
 
Tables Saw Tapering Machine

Hi, I totally agree with Sherm's suggestion to use a table saw for your machine. Also I suggest that you use 2 DC Motors with controllers so you can adjust the trimmer pots to get the feeds and speeds perfect. Right feeds and speeds, less sanding, repeatable taper geometry and better final product. "Anaheim Automation" in California has a great selection of motors and controllers. I built two machines ( one for shafts & one for butts ) for my shop with Darrin Hill and you can run them all day long and the motors don't even get warm. If you use an AC Motor you will have to use gears or pulleys to set your speeds. Having vernier control over feeds and speeds will allow you to obtain the maximum efficiency out of your machine. With gears or pulleys, you end up with settling for less than is obtainable instead of tweaking the machine perfectly. Good Luck, Rick Geschrey
 
Last edited:
KJ Cues said:
Not looking to offend anyone here and the only reason that I'm responding is because I also have a doweling machine in the works (back-burner for now).

When comparing manual to CNC, there is no comparison. $200 vs $2000.

The manual mach. I'm building is based on a HF wood lathe; the rest, eBay parts.
Thompson rod slider set-up w/trucks and a router.
Whether CNC or manual, you still need to load & unload the machine manually.
Once loaded, how hard is it to push the router down the rails? Add a second motor and a limit switch and you don't even have to push.
I'm thinking I could do 100 squares to dowels before lunch. That's more dowels than I'll use in a year.

I'm sorry but I don't understand the 'versatility' point. A dowel is a dowel. It's only requirements are that it needs to round and the same diameter on each end. Actually, a shaper will do the same thing if you're willing to shell-out the bucks for the cutter but most likely you'd still need a second operation on the dowel to make it perfectly round.

CNC has it's place in cue-building, I'm not denying that. Today's inlays would be impossible without it. That's where I see their versatility; unlimited design possibilities. Shaft tapers would fall under that heading. A dowel is a pretty simple design, even for a manual machine.

I'm content to stay with the manual machine for this application. That's an $1,800 difference that gets to stay in the bank.
Click to expand...

KJ

No offense taken!

I thought he was building a "Tapering" machine, not a dowel machine.

$200 still sounds to cheap though. How do you get there that low?

Thanks
 
I have just under $2000 in mine but its a 4 axis machine.I use it to cue v-groove points tapper butts and shafts, stich rings and could even do inlays if I would add a spindle for a couple hundred exrta bucks. So if I were to build a 2 axis tappering machine I am sure I could get it down to around $1600.
 
I make a lot of shafts for other cues and build my cues 100% custom so I don't use any one standard taper. I've got two, stand alone shaft machines that use a saw blade and am very happy with the way they perform but they each have just one set taper so I am constantly having to sand shafts who want a different profile than my standard one. The same with butts. It's hard to put a compound taper on a butt when just off-setting the tail-stock. It is for this reason that I am building CNC 4 blade shaft machine that will do 4 shafts or butts at once and have 10,000 different tapers if I wish. A standard, manual shaft machine will suffice but if you have any intension of staying in this business, being competitive and making any money, you might as well go with the technology now instead of always being a step behind and trying to catch up. I use around 150 to 200 shaft blanks a year plus around 60 butts. At 8 trips through the tapering process per blank that comes to over 2000 passes a year. That's a lot of time at the shaft machine even if it's just feeding the machine. I want to make it as easy and quick as possible.
In the early nineties I was not for CNC but once I seen the light I am whole hog for CNC.

Dick
 
IMO...........versatility comes with being able to produce a variety of custom tapers on one machine without having to produce a new bar every time.
Well worth the little extra if you're in it for the long haul. If you're only going to produce one or two different tapers in your building career then manual is probably your better $ spent.
 
I honestly understand the hype about using a table saw, but the router method must work just fine... I see many manual & CNC machines out there that are using a router set up of some kind and work very well!

I'm trying to build something that wont take up much space, doesn't rely on another piece of equipment and can be enclosed for dust collection (even though mine will have an attachment for a vacuum hose)

I'm really enjoying the input, I'm open for any constructive criticism, just remember that this is new for me, but I'm not an idiot either.

thanks to all, keep em' coming,
Zim
 
Zims

We use both types of machines, but actually we use all router type machines for the finish passes. Our saw machine is great for material removal, but doesn't hold the tolerances we need in finished products.

Something to think about. A 10" table saw blade moves the tooth through the wood at about 108,000 inches per minute, but the router at only 1.875" is going over 176,000 inches per minute. The reason for this is RPM, 30,000 for the router versus 3450 for the table saw. I sped up the table saw blades once to about 7000, but I don't recommend it. It's a little scary!

The angle of attack of the table saw blade is better because it is much shallower, but that also means that it needs to be in the cut for a longer distance, which means it would need to be traveling faster, not slower. Remember, the wood is turning while the tip goes through it so the cut is at an angle across the shaft and not straight through it. The faster the tip goes through the wood, the straighter this angle is. You want this as straight down the shaft as possible because it puts less side load on the shaft which leads to vibration and chatter.

All in all, either way will work, but you will need to find your prime rotational speed and feed speed. CNC makes this much easier to do. Also, repeatability is much easier too.

If you are leary of CNC because of programming, don't be. The type of programming for turning operations is amazingly simple. Most of my programs are less than 20 lines, and most use pretty much just one command over and over. I would be happy to help you get started.

Good Luck!
 
RBC said:
Zims

We use both types of machines, but actually we use all router type machines for the finish passes. Our saw machine is great for material removal, but doesn't hold the tolerances we need in finished products.

Something to think about. A 10" table saw blade moves the tooth through the wood at about 108,000 inches per minute, but the router at only 1.875" is going over 176,000 inches per minute. The reason for this is RPM, 30,000 for the router versus 3450 for the table saw. I sped up the table saw blades once to about 7000, but I don't recommend it. It's a little scary!

The angle of attack of the table saw blade is better because it is much shallower, but that also means that it needs to be in the cut for a longer distance, which means it would need to be traveling faster, not slower. Remember, the wood is turning while the tip goes through it so the cut is at an angle across the shaft and not straight through it. The faster the tip goes through the wood, the straighter this angle is. You want this as straight down the shaft as possible because it puts less side load on the shaft which leads to vibration and chatter.

All in all, either way will work, but you will need to find your prime rotational speed and feed speed. CNC makes this much easier to do. Also, repeatability is much easier too.

If you are leary of CNC because of programming, don't be. The type of programming for turning operations is amazingly simple. Most of my programs are less than 20 lines, and most use pretty much just one command over and over. I would be happy to help you get started.

Good Luck!
Click to expand...

Excellent detailed description! Thanks for the offer, will keep that in mind Royce!
Zim
 
Zims Rack said:
Excellent detailed description! Thanks for the offer, will keep that in mind Royce!
Zim
Click to expand...

Zim, there are alot of choices out there and many different ways to tackle this machine. If you are not going the cnc route then concider making the machine so that it can be converted easily. I started out actually making a cnc machine that used a taper bar. That was ok because I could contol the feeds and speeds with a simple change in the program. My limitations came when I wanted to change the taper. Also it is easy to forget to change from a straight taper to a shaft taper. When you make this mistake you will know what I mean. So in short build the machine with at least the idea that you may convert it. Use better rails and anti-backlash lead or ball scres. Stay away from all-thread as a screw. And most of all have fun.

Jim.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top