Taper Machine...

Mc2 said:
Zim, there are alot of choices out there and many different ways to tackle this machine. If you are not going the cnc route then concider making the machine so that it can be converted easily. I started out actually making a cnc machine that used a taper bar. That was ok because I could contol the feeds and speeds with a simple change in the program. My limitations came when I wanted to change the taper. Also it is easy to forget to change from a straight taper to a shaft taper. When you make this mistake you will know what I mean. So in short build the machine with at least the idea that you may convert it. Use better rails and anti-backlash lead or ball scres. Stay away from all-thread as a screw. And most of all have fun.

Jim.
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Something like this... http://www.nookindustries.com/acme/AcmeInchAvailability.cfm
 
Update...

Okay- have been doing some major brain storming the past couple weeks and decided to take original design and tuck it in my file cabinet, because I have a new idea.

Since I use ALL Taig style equipment, I'm going to build a "taper bar frame" that will attach to my dovetail bed. The frame will hold a single taper bar, be capable of changing taper bars with just a couple bolts/screws (the frame stays in place, taper bars are removeable). I will be able to fabricate multiple tapers on multiple bars, then just swap out which ever bar I want based on the taper.

10" Pro taper
12" Pro taper
14" Pro taper
22" Pro taper
Cone taper (approx. .845 to 1.250)
V-Groove Point taper

This Tapering Attachment can be bought alone as an attachment or with lathe and ready to go!

Material ordered and will start on it in the next couple weeks. More details to come!
Thanks,
Zim
 
Zim,

I, for one, am anxious to see what you've come up with.

Gary
 
RBC said:
Zims

We use both types of machines, but actually we use all router type machines for the finish passes. Our saw machine is great for material removal, but doesn't hold the tolerances we need in finished products.

Something to think about. A 10" table saw blade moves the tooth through the wood at about 108,000 inches per minute, but the router at only 1.875" is going over 176,000 inches per minute. The reason for this is RPM, 30,000 for the router versus 3450 for the table saw. I sped up the table saw blades once to about 7000, but I don't recommend it. It's a little scary!

The angle of attack of the table saw blade is better because it is much shallower, but that also means that it needs to be in the cut for a longer distance, which means it would need to be traveling faster, not slower. Remember, the wood is turning while the tip goes through it so the cut is at an angle across the shaft and not straight through it. The faster the tip goes through the wood, the straighter this angle is. You want this as straight down the shaft as possible because it puts less side load on the shaft which leads to vibration and chatter.

All in all, either way will work, but you will need to find your prime rotational speed and feed speed. CNC makes this much easier to do. Also, repeatability is much easier too.

If you are leary of CNC because of programming, don't be. The type of programming for turning operations is amazingly simple. Most of my programs are less than 20 lines, and most use pretty much just one command over and over. I would be happy to help you get started.

Good Luck!
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Royce,
I don't understand your math here. My saw machine is set up with a 12" 72tooth blade with 3450 RPMs gives me 248,400 cuts per minute. A router with a 2 flute bit @ 30,000 rpms will only give you 60,000 cuts per minute. Even a 10 inch saw with 60 teeth will give you 207,000 cuts per minute, well above that of the router even with a 6 tooth wing cutter, which IMHO is a grenade waiting to explode and as you wisely pointed out, the angle of attack is much better with the larger diameter saw blade.

This all shows up in shrinkage, wasted shafts because increased tool pressure makes for more heat while cutting which causes all sorts of warping stress etc...

There's no comparison between the saw and the router for shaft tapering and if you're set up right it's every bit as accurate as a router.
 
Sherm,

My math deals with speed, not cuts per minute. Tip speed, along the the radius of the blade indicates how long the blade is in the cut.

Remember, the actual cut or slot in the shaft is not straight down the shaft, it's at an angle. The angle is created because the shaft is turning while the blade tip goes through it. The tip is traveling straight down the shaft, but the shaft does turn while the tip is in the cut. The angle of this cut is critical. Also, the relief cut on the sides of the tip are critical. If the speed of rotation of the shaft turns the angle of the slot so much that the sides of the slot run into the sides of the tip you get instant destruction. The shaft pushes off and then jumps back into the blade. Nasty! With the saw machines, because of the slower tip speed and the longer arc, meaning a longer slot in the wood, I just can't turn the part very fast. With the routers I can spin the part faster allowing me to move faster. With as many parts as we cut, that speed is critical. Between the parts we cut to make our blanks, and the shafts themselves, we do over 5000 passes a week!

I'm not knocking the saw machines. For most cuemakers they are ideal. For me, I am cutting allot more parts and I need the speed. I can't get near the cut speed from a saw that I can from a router. If I was just cutting small numbers of shafts and already had a saw machine, I would be happy. However, if I was buying or building a router for cue building. I would most likely just use it and a router for all my turning needs. I would not see the need for more than one machine.

As for accuracy, yes the saw machines can be just as accurate as routers. It just depends on the machine. I have a 4 blade saw machine and it just isn't consistent enough for me. When I have to have the blades sharpened, I have to shim all the head stocks and tail stocks to get all 4 spindles cutting close to each other. I have thought about rebuilding some of the parts of my saw machine to see if I could get it to hold tighter tolerances, but it's a time thing I guess. If I could use it for the final passes on both our shafts and dowels it would pay for the time and money it took to rebuild it, but there is a chance it still won't get there and all that time would be wasted.

We actually cut allot more parts per shaft than most. Remember, there are 6 pieces of flat laminated maple that are turned down between centers to very close to 1/2" in diameter for each shaft. That's just over 1/2" for 30.5" in length! And we hold very tight tolerances for diameter and taper on these too. Once the 6 flat lam pieces go into the blank, then the shafts are turned down as you would a solid maple shaft so we have allot more cuts than building a normal shaft.
 
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JerseyBill said:
Yes, did you , or are you in the middle..I'm still in the market....
thanks, Bill
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I am interested in one as well depending on how it's made & price. The one from Unique looks ok but I think $3k is a little steep for that machine..... I'd rather pickup another Hightower lathe.

Bill, did you ever have any luck with your CNC?
 
Bruppert- Which CNC device from Unique is $3000?
I guess you mean the non-CNC Taper Shaper??
Robin
 
Taper machine

carguy said:
Bruppert- Which CNC device from Unique is $3000?
I guess you mean the non-CNC Taper Shaper??
Robin
Click to expand...

Robin, yes I was talking about the Taper Shaper from Unique. The comment about the CNC was just for Bill.... guess I should just call him.

If anyone decides to build a Tapering machine here are a few comments I had on the Taper Shaper. I am not in anyway knocking this machine. I have not used it but have yet to hear anything but good comments about it. These are just some design thoughts I had.

- It follows a machined template so there is no flexibility in making the shaft contour. I have a couple of friends who own machine shops so I can have one made to my specs but I might have to pay for that one even if I did the CNC programming. It would be nice if this could be adjusted without having a new part designed and machined.
- The holder for the router hangs out with no obvious support on the front end. It may be plenty strong enough but it doesn't look like you can take any hogging cuts.
- There doesn't seem to be a way to lay the router horizontal. I like cutting with the end of the bit. Not as smooth of a finish but less chatter. Plus its easier to sharpen the ends of the cutters than the sides.
- I also don't care for the controls being behind those uncovered pulleys. Yeah if your careful its not a problem but it doesn't take a whole lot to get distracted at the wrong moment. Not going to rip your finger off but I bet it will hurt.
- a big ol' stop button would be nice too
 
bruppert said:
Robin, yes I was talking about the Taper Shaper from Unique. The comment about the CNC was just for Bill.... guess I should just call him.

If anyone decides to build a Tapering machine here are a few comments I had on the Taper Shaper. I am not in anyway knocking this machine. I have not used it but have yet to hear anything but good comments about it. These are just some design thoughts I had.

- It follows a machined template so there is no flexibility in making the shaft contour. I have a couple of friends who own machine shops so I can have one made to my specs but I might have to pay for that one even if I did the CNC programming. It would be nice if this could be adjusted without having a new part designed and machined.
- The holder for the router hangs out with no obvious support on the front end. It may be plenty strong enough but it doesn't look like you can take any hogging cuts.
- There doesn't seem to be a way to lay the router horizontal. I like cutting with the end of the bit. Not as smooth of a finish but less chatter. Plus its easier to sharpen the ends of the cutters than the sides.
- I also don't care for the controls being behind those uncovered pulleys. Yeah if your careful its not a problem but it doesn't take a whole lot to get distracted at the wrong moment. Not going to rip your finger off but I bet it will hurt.
- a big ol' stop button would be nice too
Click to expand...
1. You can make and buy an adjustable one, but yah I hear yah.
2. It can hog out enough.
3. You can mount the controls elsewhere and it REALLY would be hard to hurt yourself. If anyone was gonna do it, it would be me and I haven't come close!
4. Never saw a need for a big ole stop button
 
bruppert said:
Robin, yes I was talking about the Taper Shaper from Unique. The comment about the CNC was just for Bill.... guess I should just call him.

If anyone decides to build a Tapering machine here are a few comments I had on the Taper Shaper. I am not in anyway knocking this machine. I have not used it but have yet to hear anything but good comments about it. These are just some design thoughts I had.

- It follows a machined template so there is no flexibility in making the shaft contour. I have a couple of friends who own machine shops so I can have one made to my specs but I might have to pay for that one even if I did the CNC programming. It would be nice if this could be adjusted without having a new part designed and machined.
- The holder for the router hangs out with no obvious support on the front end. It may be plenty strong enough but it doesn't look like you can take any hogging cuts.
- There doesn't seem to be a way to lay the router horizontal. I like cutting with the end of the bit. Not as smooth of a finish but less chatter. Plus its easier to sharpen the ends of the cutters than the sides.
- I also don't care for the controls being behind those uncovered pulleys. Yeah if your careful its not a problem but it doesn't take a whole lot to get distracted at the wrong moment. Not going to rip your finger off but I bet it will hurt.
- a big ol' stop button would be nice too
Click to expand...

Biggest fault of TS is no way to attach a dust shoot easily.
 
Randy, thanks for the info. Where do you buy an adjustable template (for lack of a better word)? Shame their website doesn't have more info and pictures. Probably a moot point though, at least for me right now as $3,000 is a bit much for me to spend on a single purpose machine. Any idea if you can disengage the carriage from the lead screw and slide the whole carriage down or do you have to feed it back? Oh, do you own one? Have time to do a little write on how it works and maybe a little Pro/Con?

Thanks Joey, I forgot to mention that one. I wonder how you keep the chips out of that track..... is it a through slot or a groove? That is one thing I've noticed with pretty much all the cue making machines, no thought towards dust collection. For the Hightower you can't really mount anything to the carriage as any bump puts a gouge in the shaft. I am using a Floor Sweep attachment for my dust collector sitting on top of the wooden toolbox. It gets about 95% of the chips and all the dust as long as I don't have a leak in the cover I made for the router. If that leaks then the dust drifts under the bed and loves to attach to the lead screw.
 
You can do a box like this. I have on the right side the dust collector hooked up and a plexiglass door in front of the box. Works great for me. No dust whatsoever and noise is super low as well. I remember Kenny Koo posting something similar awhile back as well.
I have the adjustable taper bar from
Unique, $259.00 and works great.

a6cd8a3e-b811-0ca6.jpg



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