TAR 25 and the forums

And as far as the difference between action match rules and tournament rules go...there doesn't have to be any difference with a TAR match. Between Ken S (the TD), Justin, and Mark G., they could come up with a list of rules that would signed by each player before the match is a go. If a player doesn't want to sign it they probably know they are going to be breaking one or more the rules and it will cost them fines or loss of match. Johnnyt
 
All that said, I know it's a lot of pressure on these guys when they're trying to scrape out a living, and that can bring out some frustration and dialogue that might not happen in just daily life, but it's still not what American pool needs.[/QUOTE]

This is just an excuse for those that act like a fool. You don't think there was pressure on Shane and Dennis O at hardtimes, or Oscar and Raj in their last TAR match? Like I said before, its time for these guys to sit down, shut up, and put the balls in the holes.

As for taking trash before a match, that is just marketing, not cheating at all. But, once the coin has flipped it time to shut up and play.

There have been plenty of matches for much high stakes them this where guys talked during the match and it was just fun banter and no one was talking while the other guy was shooting. Pool doesn't have to feel like church, it CAN be entertaining, But it also needs to and can be PROFESSIONAL.
 
I am not reading this whole thread (nor the others that might of sprung up today regarding this match which caused this thread) but will share my comments as someone who watched it. The pool was good to watch. The added comments/issues that went on between the players was also fine. It does not make it right, however I can guarentee that anyone that was watching started listening/watching a little bit more than they might of been at the time. I think we as fans need to just learn to go with the flow and realize that in the grand scheme of things it was a very good match that had some entertainment value along with it.

Part of watching matches in person that has always intrigued me is the personalities of the players. It is a proven fact that the personalities draw. Getting to hear and watch both players during this match via a microphone was awesome. It was very easy to see the little things and big things that constitute sharking. Pool rooms across the country have always had these types of issues and they would be discussed amongst anyone that heard them. Again, it does not make it right but its also not a big deal. Internet forums tend to harp on every little thing which for the most part was just a blip on the radar of the big picture.

Neil,
To come on and say stuff about Dennis and he should be ashamed (not exact quote) of his actions is wrong considering you said so yourself you did not watch the show. Some of his actions were in response to Mike's actions as were Mike's of his.

Regardless, I will continue to support TAR and future shows and would consider any matches that might have both of these guys in it. However, neither would come home to meet my parents.
 
Bottom lines

Dennis can be a bully if he's not winning and both he and Mike can be a whiners if things aren't going their way. I've seen them both display this numberous times in events. Hatch disrespects Mike and Mike doesn't have a good outlet for handling the disrespect............except beating him. If he wants to give Mike motivation, just keep on disrespecting him. These are their dynamics as I see them. If Hatch is the bigger dog he needs to let his play dictate the tone of the match, not these moves that only empower the opponent. Mike can't be itimidated like some regional shortstop anymore. His game is too big now.

Mike your future in this game is bright, never let an opponent make you get down on yourself. Only you can make yourself feel anything. You have a long road ahead of you in this game, don't let others dictate where you end up.

The Phillipinos have so much more poise and class than the Americans. Even when they win in great fashion like Orcollo did vs. SVB last evening they just say, "I got lucky!"
 
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Once had a yearly 14.1 tournament around here. Most of us played pretty even, a few a little better but still beatable. Dan Whitten (yes, cue case Whitten) used to live up here. He won it one year. The next year I was already there when he arrived. He had been practicing a lot, and was ready to defend his title. He came in with that look in his eye. I saw it, and walked right up to him. I told him I hope I drew him right away. He looked at me, and asked "why?" I then told him "well, you won it last year." He then replied, "yes, so why would you want to play me first?" I then told him "Well, Dan, we all play pretty even, you won last year. The odds of you winning two years in a row have to be astronomical! I figure you have the worse odds here of winning again!" Needless to say, poor Dan went two and out that year. Am I a cheater for playing a little mind game on him? I don't think so. He lost because he thought about what I said, and it made sense to him. So, he went from a winning confidence to a losing mentality.
The following description from the Wikipedia is a common definition of "unsportsmanlike conduct":
Unsportsmanlike conduct (also called unsporting behaviour or ungentlemanly conduct) is a foul or offense in many sports that is not necessarily a violation of the respective sport's rules of play, but violates the sport's generally accepted rules of sportsmanship and/or participant conduct. Examples include taunting an opponent, an excessive celebration following a scoring play, or feigning injury. The official rules of many sports include a catch-all provision whereby participants or an entire team may be penalized or otherwise sanctioned for unsportsmanlike conduct.​
Unsportsmanlike conduct can occur at anytime during a tournament or match.

Can anyone here say that Neil did not engage in unsportsmanlike conduct in what he said to Dan Whitten?
 
I have to say, I am rather disappointed in the forums response to TAR 25. Not just disappointed, but somewhat baffled by the responses to the match. I didn't get to watch the match, wish I could have. The updates on the match were next to non-existent. Wonder why that is??

Then, I read a lot of posts about the match. Strangely enough, all were about one of two things- a possible bad hit, or the two players acting unprofessional. What, are a number of people on here ticked off because they bet on the wrong guy to win?? I can't help but wonder just WHY some of you bothered to watch it in the first place?? For entertainment value?? Well, then why complain, sure seems like you were entertained. What is up with all this nonsense about them not acting like pros?? What, you want them to just sit there like Soquet does, and you find that entertaining??

First off, this wasn't even a pro match. It was a money matchup between two pros. Why are they pros? Because they are that blame good at the game. Seems like that is exactly why they were given this opportunity and a lot of others will never get the chance to play there. So, are you watching for the so called professional attitude, or are you watching for the professional caliber of play??

If you actually watched it for the caliber of play, then why hasn't there been a single comment that I can find about the actual games on here? Where there no great outs? No great safes? Nothing at all that surprised anyone in pattern play?? Nothing at all pool worthy of even mentioning on a pool forum??

Why all the talk about them not acting professional?? Really, who gives a rip how they acted?? Some are saying they couldn't watch anymore because one of the players actually was talking! Really? Do some of you even play out in the real world anymore? Guys talking is the least of the problems one has to face out there anymore.

Really, all you guys can talk about is how they dress and act?? You wonder why pool will never make it big, look no farther than yourselves, the fan base. You don't even care about how the game is played, just how the actors talk, act, and dress. What entertainment do you possibly find in a couple of guys wearing a tuxedo and being mute? What's next, at every players meeting the players have to sign a form verifying that they have read a manual on etiquette?? Apparently many of you have never seen the likes of Keith McCready at a table. Now, THAT is entertainment!

As to Dennis, and I really hope you are reading this- Shame on you! You were a road player for many years, you have a ton of experience. Yet you allowed yourself to fall for the oldest tricks in the book?? Come on man, you deserve to get slapped in the back of the head by your dad for what you did!

First off, you underestimated your opponent. Doing that, you lost day one. Day two, you used your experience to win. Day 3, head totally up your rear! You once again underestimated Mike because you won day two, and to top it off, you committed the cardinal sin of a road player...you actually let Mike get into your head! With all your experience, how on earth did you fall for that one???? You actually let him make you mad KNOWING it would affect your game.??? For THAT, yeah, you deserved to lose. You know better than that! Yeah, it stings like crazy, but now all you can do is learn from it and go back to your roots.

I imagine that if Mike were to take you up on your offer, he wouldn't like it. But....ONLY if you actually USE your experience and don't act like you are green at this stuff.

Back to the forum members... when I first started playing, it was in the room in Va. Beach where Lassiter would practice from time to time. Don't have a clue of the name of the place, but the counter guy was the ref at a number of Lassiters exhibitions. Ten foot tables, and if you talked above a whisper, you were asked to please leave. All you heard in the place was the click of the balls. Fast forward to today. Music so loud you have to shout to talk to the person next to you. Balls flying all over the place, people running into you, waitresses asking you if you want anything while you are down shooting the case 9 ball.

It's a different world out there today. I have had a tough time dealing with it. I like the quiet atmosphere myself. But, saying no talking allowed, have to wear a certain type of clothes because some snob doesn't happen to like the clothes I like to wear, can't smoke when I want to, ect, it's all things we have to adapt to. To say something or someone isn't professional, not because of their play, but because they have some trait you don't happen to like, is B.S. of the first order.

You guys say you don't like to watch Soguet because he's too boring. Then, when you get something a little different, you complain because they aren't boring enough. Sheesh. Make up your minds already! Some of you sound like a bunch of old hens at the fence chatting away saying nothing of substance.

Some of what you say is true, but that's where it stops acting like you know what went on and complaining about people who said that they acted unprofessional is just stupid when you didn't even watch the match.

I have a high tolerance for BS in a match, and you can believe me when I say that, but this match sent my BS needle right off the dial gauge.

When I buy a PPV I am hoping to watch some good pool with some BS thrown in no problem. However last night was way over board it was BS with some pool thrown in.

Let me put it this way if all PPV's were like last nights I wouldn't purchase another. If you ask me I think both players should hang their heads after that performance! It was pitiful! WTF
 
... What, you want them to just sit there like Soquet does, and you find that entertaining?? ...

Absolutely, yes and yes.

The entertainment is in the beauty of the game and the skill in playing it well. Souquet vs. Hohmann -- wonderful. Ortmann vs. Bustamante -- wonderful. Braying jackass vs. whining hyena -- not so good.
 
It's all opinions I guess, personally I could not disagree more with the first poster on this thread.

As for the sharking, this match was over on the podcast before the event when Dennis opponent said words to the effect

I do ok for myself, I have a job I'm glad I'm not 41 and thinking look what ai did to my life.

Misbehaviour during the match can't be tolerated or condoned, McEnroe got fined for it, Alex Higgins got fined for it, O'Sullivans been fined for it, Strickland is now a laughing stock, Morris cost the USA the Mosconi with it, no sport that tries to take itself seriously tolerates it.
 
im ok with watching a gentlemanly match and im also ok with watching two guys shark each other also. Im not cool with a guy like earl sharking a efren type personality though.
 
...Plus, what some consider sharking isn't sharking at all. I once was accused of sharking because I took a sip of my drink! This guy was so unhinged that ANY movement would shark him. In reality, I wasn't sharking him, he was sharking himself and just blaming me. That's when I knew I owned him. His mind was focused on sharking, not on playing.

...Once had a yearly 14.1 tournament around here. Most of us played pretty even, a few a little better but still beatable. Dan Whitten (yes, cue case Whitten) used to live up here. He won it one year. The next year I was already there when he arrived. He had been practicing a lot, and was ready to defend his title. He came in with that look in his eye. I saw it, and walked right up to him. I told him I hope I drew him right away. He looked at me, and asked "why?" I then told him "well, you won it last year." He then replied, "yes, so why would you want to play me first?" I then told him "Well, Dan, we all play pretty even, you won last year. The odds of you winning two years in a row have to be astronomical! I figure you have the worse odds here of winning again!" Needless to say, poor Dan went two and out that year. Am I a cheater for playing a little mind game on him? I don't think so. He lost because he thought about what I said, and it made sense to him. So, he went from a winning confidence to a losing mentality.

1st Paragraph: Yes, I have had that happen to me and it has probably happened to anyone that has spent some time around a table. The latest shark I was accused of was kind of funny. When I am really working at the game I have a tendency to touch a spot on the rail or the table that I want the cue ball to go to as part of my pre-shot routine. After running a few racks my opponent accused me of sharking him by doing this. I thought that was amazing and I also knew that I would win the match. :smile:

2nd Paragraph: Actually I'm a bit disappointed to hear this. I'm a big proponent of letting your cue do the talking. It's sad to me that you felt you had to do a pre-match shark to beat him. What is sadder to me is that you write like you are proud of it. :embarrassed2:
 
So, in your opinion, we should not talk about the actual games played on here. But instead should only talk about the actions, dress, and demeanor of the players. Sheesh, what's this forum come down to??

Do not put words into my mouth, it is not only the hight of bad manners but shows that in your haste to defend you point of view you have not even had the courtesy to digest mine. I did begin my post by pointing out that these debates are all about opinions.

Do you disagree that the dress, demeanour etc of the players should NOT overshadow the actual game played?
 
a little to far

The following description from the Wikipedia is a common definition of "unsportsmanlike conduct":
Unsportsmanlike conduct (also called unsporting behaviour or ungentlemanly conduct) is a foul or offense in many sports that is not necessarily a violation of the respective sport's rules of play, but violates the sport's generally accepted rules of sportsmanship and/or participant conduct. Examples include taunting an opponent, an excessive celebration following a scoring play, or feigning injury. The official rules of many sports include a catch-all provision whereby participants or an entire team may be penalized or otherwise sanctioned for unsportsmanlike conduct.​
Unsportsmanlike conduct can occur at anytime during a tournament or match.

Can anyone here say that Neil did not engage in unsportsmanlike conduct in what he said to Dan Whitten?

I recently played in a tournament and my opponent, one of the best in Minneapolis wasn't paying attention. I just ran out the last table, broke and with 3 balls left addressed the cue ball, accidentally tapped it with my tip. Without a thought I walked away, calling a foul on myself. His eyes were huge, and he couldn't believe it. There is no possible way he could have seen it with the position I was in shooting. No that is just how i am. Who else on this forum would do that? Truthfully?

Now with that in mind, when Neil is talking to the guy before the match like he did I would do the same thing. How is that cheating? That is a stretch. What about all the unconscious cues you give off, is that cheating? What about walking around the table puffy chested is that cheating? Come on guys.

Golf and Pool wants quiet, when other sports scream and shout when the guy is attempting a free throw, trying to call signals, or trying to throw a strike on a full count.

Neil is correct (and we have gotten in each others faces on CTE recently) when he says it up to you to look past sharking. The mentally game is much harder than the physical part.
 
When the guy who runs the event and sets everything up says he was disgusted by the whole thing, well that's about the only opinion that matters to me.
 
I don't feel that I put any words in your mouth. The first poster was obviously me. The purpose of the thread has been mentioned several times. To re-iterate, I find it rather disappointing that there is so much talk about their little tiffs at the table, and none about the game itself. This is supposed to be a pool forum, not an old ladies chat room to just gossip about who did what to whom with no mention of the actual games. Yet, even this thread turned into nothing more than the same old same old gossiping. Supposed to be the best pool forum in the world, have a pay per view matchup, and nothing said about the actual play.

Neil, The bottom line is not what you think but what Justin thinks:
Originally Posted by JCIN
I dont care if 90% of the people liked it. At several points I was embarrassed to be associated with the whole thing. The first two days werent bad, it was about what I expected with some jawing back and forth. The third day was an embarrassment for everyone involved.

Im not in the professional wrestling business. We want to give the best players in the world a showcase for their talent and a chance for fans to see great one on one matches. We want the players to be comfortable to be themselves and act how they want within reason. Sunday was not within reason. We will just have to draw the lines a little more clearly and back them up with some teeth.​

In another thread, Justin mentioned that both Dennis and Mike called him to apologize for their misconduct and that things got out of hand.

Neil, I hope you learn something from all this in that this type of misbehavior will no longer be tolerated.
 
i did not watch it but i thought i would give my .02 anyway.

i commend both players for apologizing to justin. it seems to me they both just let things get out of hand. every one knows there is no love lost between these 2 players.

you people are putting these 2 players under a microscope and critiquing every little detail of this match. not only were they playing for a free roll they were playing for pride also. these guys have a history and darn sure hate to lose to each other.

they are human and let their emotions get the best of them and things got a lil out of hand.

who among you have been sharked and never retaliated in any way ? how many of you have completely ignored your opponent like he was not even there ? how many of you have never said a word during a match or not ever displaying any emotion at all ?

if you have a problem with an opponent sitting in his chair filing his tip or texting on his phone your focus aint where it oughta be. why are you worried about what he is doing in his chair ? you oughta be worried about what you are doing at the table. the only sharking going on there is what you are doing to yourself.

i do not condone sharking but i do not expect my opponent to be a complete zombie either.
 
To re-iterate, I find it rather disappointing that there is so much talk about their little tiffs at the table, and none about the game itself. This is supposed to be a pool forum, not an old ladies chat room to just gossip about who did what to whom with no mention of the actual games. Supposed to be the best pool forum in the world, have a pay per view matchup, and nothing said about the actual play.

You seem to have difficulty comprehending that the misconduct of the players completely overshadowed their actual play.
 
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