Techniques generating a more powerful break (greater than 22MPH) ...Anyone?

TrumanHW

TrumanHW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been experimenting this week with trying to finally get a B player (vs. D player) break.

I have:
bent my front elbow
look at cue ball last
work on centering my gravity
put more weight on my bridge hand
working on bringing my cue back more slowly.
struggling with pausing in between my back and forward swing

Is there anyone in LA who would be willing to give me a (paid) lesson that knows for certain they can accurately take in to account physiological differences (I'm tall for instance) ... is articulate enough to be unambiguous (think: Keith saying, "you have to slip slide draw the ball" ... who feels confident they can isolate the things I need to resolve?

Yes, I realize that sometimes a soft break will yield a ball on the break -- but most pool halls won't recover their tables until they're like molasses. When a table is slow, getting the balls to travel farther increases the possibility of a ball on the break, and it should at least be in my options to try a hard break.

I have that cool little phone app that predator purchased that tells you your break speed... and unless someone knows its flawed, I definitely recommend buying it ($5). I spent about 3-4 hours working on my break this past week, watched videos, (Charlie Bryant has one on his site that has some useful insight) as well as others on the net.

Maybe I generally lack coordination, should be starting with my head higher (I prefer to play pool (not necessarily break) with my chin about an inch off my cue) etc. etc. etc..

I can also get a video posted if someone wants to critique.

Thanks!
 
JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
TrumanHW said:
I've been experimenting this week with trying to finally get a B player (vs. D player) break.

I have:
bent my front elbow
look at cue ball last
work on centering my gravity
put more weight on my bridge hand
working on bringing my cue back more slowly.
struggling with pausing in between my back and forward swing

Is there anyone in LA who would be willing to give me a (paid) lesson that knows for certain they can accurately take in to account physiological differences (I'm tall for instance) ... is articulate enough to be unambiguous (think: Keith saying, "you have to slip slide draw the ball" ... who feels confident they can isolate the things I need to resolve?

Yes, I realize that sometimes a soft break will yield a ball on the break -- but most pool halls won't recover their tables until they're like molasses. When a table is slow, getting the balls to travel farther increases the possibility of a ball on the break, and it should at least be in my options to try a hard break.

I have that cool little phone app that predator purchased that tells you your break speed... and unless someone knows its flawed, I definitely recommend buying it ($5). I spent about 3-4 hours working on my break this past week, watched videos, (Charlie Bryant has one on his site that has some useful insight) as well as others on the net.

Maybe I generally lack coordination, should be starting with my head higher (I prefer to play pool (not necessarily break) with my chin about an inch off my cue) etc. etc. etc..

I can also get a video posted if someone wants to critique.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I know you want to break better and you think speed will help and it will to a certain extent.

You didn't mention anything about how squarely you connect the cue ball to the one ball but that makes a LOT of difference in the quality of your break. If you can't squat the rock, you're losing power.

The other thing is HOW you rack the balls.
I've had trouble with successful breaking but most of the time, it normally comes down to not hitting the one ball squarely AND/OR not having ALL of the balls touching.

Our pool room has mixed sets of balls from knuckleheads switching out this ball for that ball and it makes for inconsistent breaking results.

The pros pay EXTRA SPECIAL ATTENTION to how the balls are racked. We should too or just get a Magic Rack or some other template rack to keep the balls tight. I think Renfro on this forum sells a template rack as well.

The Break Rak will help you perfect your technique. You can google that if you haven't seen it. Lots of positive comments about it on this forum, including mine. If you were in the other LA I would let you work out with my Break Rak when I bring it to the pool room.

Oh yeah, TRY A VERY LOOSE GRIP.
 
TrumanHW

TrumanHW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joey, I'm FROM Gretna. My whole family lives out there. Heard of Carlo Ditta Inc.?

Ahhh, New Orleans. $4 an hour pool, open all night..... You ever played at Honey's? lol

I am on the verge of buying a break rak. I've been eyeing it for a while... I want to split it with a few friends ideally... or maybe just leave it at hard times and rent it out for $20 per hour. :)
 
TSW

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A 22 mph break is perfectly fine at the amateur level. If you have a tight rack and you are hitting the head ball squarely, a 22 mph break will do a lot of damage to a 9 ball or 10 ball rack. IMO, accuracy is more important than speed.

In the end, a harder break is good to have in your back pocket. But like anything else, the learning curve flattens out. You will spend a lot of time trying to increase your break speed without losing accuracy, and you'll only see a marginal difference in effectiveness.

So the key question is: Is your practice time best spent working on getting your break up from 22 mph, or are there other aspects of your game that are more important? Unless you're trying to go pro, I'd focus on other things before break speed.

TSW <~~ breaks 22 mph.

Edit: Break accuracy is a different story. If you told me you were going to buy a Break Rak and spend your time trying to hit 22 mph and stick the cue ball every time, I'd say go for it. I'm talking just about the cost/benefit of trying to go from a 22 mph break to, say, a 25 mph break. It will take a lot of work and the benefit will be marginal.
 
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TrumanHW

TrumanHW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I generally hit the ball pretty squarely... but of course, no one does all the time. at least 3/4 when I'm breaking mediocrely (in particular when I'm tired) ... but when I'm energized I hit the ball pretty square. The issue is that I'm a capable player. My break and run out stats are surprisingly high RELATIVE to the frequency that I make a ball on the break and get a shot on the lowest digit. THOSE are the two biggest problems. Even if I could just play safe after the break. Sometimes I go 8 racks at a time without getting opportunities after the break... having to claw my way by safeties or kicking trying to grab the scraps of what's left. By the time then that I do get a shot after the break I'm already dejected. Yes, obviously I could use a better mindset - but clearly shane illustrates that getting opportunities after the break is not unreasonable. I would be ELATED with offensive opportunities 1/4 of the time, and defensive opportunities 1/4. Not getting opportunities after the break makes me cold, and only serves to add insult to injury.
 
nobcitypool

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyA said:
I know you want to break better and you think speed will help and it will to a certain extent.

You didn't mention anything about how squarely you connect the cue ball to the one ball but that makes a LOT of difference in the quality of your break. If you can't squat the rock, you're losing power.

The other thing is HOW you rack the balls.
I've had trouble with successful breaking but most of the time, it normally comes down to not hitting the one ball squarely AND/OR not having ALL of the balls touching.

Our pool room has mixed sets of balls from knuckleheads switching out this ball for that ball and it makes for inconsistent breaking results.

The pros pay EXTRA SPECIAL ATTENTION to how the balls are racked. We should too or just get a Magic Rack or some other template rack to keep the balls tight. I think Renfro on this forum sells a template rack as well.

The Break Rak will help you perfect your technique. You can google that if you haven't seen it. Lots of positive comments about it on this forum, including mine. If you were in the other LA I would let you work out with my Break Rak when I bring it to the pool room.

Oh yeah, TRY A VERY LOOSE GRIP.
Click to expand...

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
This!!! I emphatically endorse the breakrak. If you are that concerned about your break, it is a great tool. It may be the single best pool teach equipment type tool made. Good luck!
 
B

backplaying

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it's hard to play well when you don't have your break working. I would suggest just like golf, start shifting your body, before you finish your back swing, and grip the cue tighter right at impact, to help get your timing down . If you play golf, you will understand what I mean. It starts with my feet.
 
TrumanHW

TrumanHW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
backplaying said:
I think it's hard to play well when you don't have your break working. I would suggest just like golf, start shifting your body, before you finish your back swing, and grip the cue tighter right at impact, to help get your timing down . If you play golf, you will understand what I mean. It starts with my feet.
Click to expand...

Actually, yeah, thats the exact thing I need insight on. Timing with my body and what motion results in generating power... in particular, what generates the power with greatest fluidity.

My presumption is that the harder I can hit it, the easier it'll be to get optimal control at slightly lesser speed. That could be faulty rationale, but if not, it's a secondary benefit.
 
J

JLD

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you want more speed on your break it's a simple matter of lengthening the radius between the tip of your cue and the pivot point on your arm that you use to move the cue. As an extreme example to illustrate the principle visualize a point on the surface of the earth and another point at the center of the earth. As the earth pivots around it's center the point on the surface is moving faster than 1000 mph while a point on a basketball size center the speed is almost imperceptible.

If you are breaking using your elbow(as in pendulum stroke) as the pivot point you are severely limiting the speed you can apply to the cue ball vs using your shoulder as the pivot point. By using your shoulder as the pivot point you can gain up to a 60% increase in speed depending on how straight your arm is between the grip and shoulder. This is why you see players shift from a shooting stance to a more upright stance on the break stroke. It does require some work to learn how to shift from an elbow pivot while bent over in the shooting stance to a shoulder pivot as you rise to an upright stance but the results are well worth it. You still have to to hit the balls square with good technique.

More speed can be gained by shifting the shoulder forward on the final break stroke. This technique is usually accompanied by a backwards kick of the leg closest to the cue which also adds to the momentum.

There are other things you have to be careful of such as driving the cue ball down into the table as the tip contacts the cue ball as it kills some speed and makes the cue ball airborne. If the cue ball is airborne when it hits the rack you lose breaking power just like you do when you don't hit them square. A good technique to avoid this problem is to aim your tip at the bottom of the cue ball while stroking and as you complete the contact stroke bring the tip up to hit center ball. As the tip is rising slightly at contact it helps prevent the cue ball from becoming airborne. Lastly too short of a stroke on the break can prevent you from developing the full speed-momentum you are capable of.
 
TrumanHW

TrumanHW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JLD said:
If you want more speed on your break it's a simple matter of lengthening the radius between the tip of your cue and the pivot point on your arm that you use to move the cue. As an extreme example to illustrate the principle visualize a point on the surface of the earth and another point at the center of the earth. As the earth pivots around it's center the point on the surface is moving faster than 1000 mph while a point on a basketball size center the speed is almost imperceptible.

If you are breaking using your elbow(as in pendulum stroke) as the pivot point you are severely limiting the speed you can apply to the cue ball vs using your shoulder as the pivot point. By using your shoulder as the pivot point you can gain up to a 60% increase in speed depending on how straight your arm is between the grip and shoulder. This is why you see players shift from a shooting stance to a more upright stance on the break stroke. It does require some work to learn how to shift from an elbow pivot while bent over in the shooting stance to a shoulder pivot as you rise to an upright stance but the results are well worth it. You still have to to hit the balls square with good technique.

More speed can be gained by shifting the shoulder forward on the final break stroke. This technique is usually accompanied by a backwards kick of the leg closest to the cue which also adds to the momentum.

There are other things you have to be careful of such as driving the cue ball down into the table as the tip contacts the cue ball as it kills some speed and makes the cue ball airborne. If the cue ball is airborne when it hits the rack you lose breaking power just like you do when you don't hit them square. A good technique to avoid this problem is to aim your tip at the bottom of the cue ball while stroking and as you complete the contact stroke bring the tip up to hit center ball. As the tip is rising slightly at contact it helps prevent the cue ball from becoming airborne. Lastly too short of a stroke on the break can prevent you from developing the full speed-momentum you are capable of.
Click to expand...

Awesome. Thank you! Very well said. The question is, how do I learn to practice accurate hits starting with my shoulder, or including it. I think I need a net instead of a rack to practice flailing at! lol.

I'll see what I can do about implementing those suggestions and if I produce anything positive I'll report here what/how.

Thanks!
 
D_Lewis

D_Lewis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Use a stripe, put it the same way every time, chalk up. See if you're hitting the middle. VERY important.
Hand eye coordination is important
Good timing

I play horrible but I break great. Other things have helped with this. Boxing background, I played other sports which use similiar motions also.
 
TrumanHW

TrumanHW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
D_Lewis said:
Use a stripe, put it the same way every time, chalk up. See if you're hitting the middle. VERY important.
Hand eye coordination is important
Good timing

I play horrible but I break great. Other things have helped with this. Boxing background, I played other sports which use similiar motions also.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Maybe I'll use a red-circle and aim at that. The stripe is too big a target... otherwise, yeah, I'll bet boxing was actually good for getting energy from the legs through the arm. Good point.

Thanks
 
D_Lewis

D_Lewis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
TrumanHW said:
Hmmm. Maybe I'll use a red-circle and aim at that. The stripe is too big a target... otherwise, yeah, I'll bet boxing was actually good for getting energy from the legs through the arm. Good point.

Thanks
Click to expand...

If you use a red circle, how can you tell if you were high or low? or left or right?
 
TrumanHW

TrumanHW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sfleinen said:
TrumanHW:

Try this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PkCG3q2PDa4#t=9m18s

This is Evgeny Stalev's mighty shoulder/pectoral muscle technique. Smooth, powerful, and doesn't look like a machine that's about to fly apart.

-Sean
Click to expand...

AWESOME! First, because you taught me that I could specify a time in a link on youtube.... and 2nd, because I now see why you don't need more bridge length even though you pull "further" back on your final stroke. SOME of the extended "back swing" is in angular distance... stored in the chest/shoulder.

AMAZING! :) Thank you!!!!! I can't wait to go experiment. And Evgeny is one cool cat. Needs to get back over to the US.
 
measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
TrumanHW said:
Hmmm. Maybe I'll use a red-circle and aim at that. The stripe is too big a target... otherwise, yeah, I'll bet boxing was actually good for getting energy from the legs through the arm. Good point.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Bingo we have a winner.I am 66 years old and 5'9" 170 pounds and not a strong person.
But i can break consistently at 20 mph using a boxing type of break. In other words I let the big muscles of the legs generate the power and speed.
Pretty much like throwing a right hand punch by turning the body into it.
It does require some practice to get everything moving correctly at the same time. But after you get some muscle memory it's really easy.
 
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