Tell me what you think

[sfleinen]

Thanks for the info.

I did not know that it was that easy, simple & quick to become a certified instructor.

Best Wishes,

RJ:

Obviously, you've never pursued formal certification of any kind. "Certification" is not a college degree, or some long, drawn-out process.

The certification methodology is simple, yes. It's basically learn the material, demonstrate that you know the material enough to take a formal test, then take that test, and if you pass it, you have the certification.

However, "simple methodology" does not mean "simple in effort."

For instance, many of the certifications I have in my career (information technologies, and mainly, information security) come from "only" a week-long class, followed by a certification test. We won't touch upon the topic of "cheats" like books designed to "teach the test" -- rather, I'm talking about the correct way to do it. And I can tell you, even from an experienced professional as myself, these certifications are not "easy" by any stretch of the imagination. I'd like to see you get Cisco Certified Network Professional (CCNP) in a week! Or even Certified Information Systems Security Professional (CISSP). These are not "equatable" to my degree. They are IN ADDITION to it.

A week, to you, might seem "simple and quick." But you obviously haven't been to any kind of certification effort like this. It's easy for one who'd never been through one of these, to equate "a week ain't four years worth of degree, so it's gotta be easy." Certifications are not a degree. They are as they say -- to certify that the person knows the material and is able to demonstrate it. Instructors do not need a four-year diploma'ed process, as, say, public school teachers do. They merely need to be able to demonstrate knowledge of the material in a strong, concise, friendly, and "customer-facing" way.

You really ought to look at the BCA and other pool entities' syllabuses, so you get an idea of how crammed full of information they are. Ultimately, it's up to the instructor to "shape" or guide that information onto the student, which often includes a little personal flair.

Perhaps then, you'll understand that there really is something to this "certified instructor" business. "Experience" ain't everything. I could say I have 46 years of whacking my head into the wall. Guess what I have? 46 years of doing nothing but whacking my head into the wall. Experience doesn't always mean anything, just like certification doesn't always mean anything.

-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

RJ:

Obviously, you've never pursued formal certification of any kind. "Certification" is not a college degree, or some long, drawn-out process.

The certification methodology is simple, yes. It's basically learn the material, demonstrate that you know the material enough to take a formal test, then take that test, and if you pass it, you have the certification.

However, "simple methodology" does not mean "simple in effort."

For instance, many of the certifications I have in my career (information technologies, and mainly, information security) come from "only" a week-long class, followed by a certification test. We won't touch upon the topic of "cheats" like books designed to "teach the test" -- rather, I'm talking about the correct way to do it. And I can tell you, even from an experienced professional as myself, these certifications are not "easy" by any stretch of the imagination. I'd like to see you get Cisco Certified Network Professional (CCNP) in a week! Or even Certified Information Systems Security Professional (CISSP). These are not "equatable" to my degree. They are IN ADDITION to it.

A week, to you, might seem "simple and quick." But you obviously haven't been to any kind of certification effort like this. It's easy for one who'd never been through one of these, to equate "a week ain't four years worth of degree, so it's gotta be easy." Certifications are not a degree. They are as they say -- to certify that the person knows the material and is able to demonstrate it. Instructors do not need a four-year diploma'ed process, as, say, public school teachers do. They merely need to be able to demonstrate knowledge of the material in a strong, concise, friendly, and "customer-facing" way.

You really ought to look at the BCA and other pool entities' syllabuses, so you get an idea of how crammed full of information they are. Ultimately, it's up to the instructor to "shape" or guide that information onto the student, which often includes a little personal flair.

Perhaps then, you'll understand that there really is something to this "certified instructor" business. "Experience" ain't everything. I could say I have 46 years of whacking my head into the wall. Guess what I have? 46 years of doing nothing but whacking my head into the wall. Experience doesn't always mean anything, just like certification doesn't always mean anything.

-Sean

I totally agree with your last statement.

I have passed several Liscensing Tests (& I do not mean Drivers Liscense) & I have been 'certified' to have taken required classes & passed the required testing in several fields. I understand education & 'certification'.

So there was no need on my part for you to interject & 'defend' PBIA Instructor Certification.

A long weekend by someone seeking help for their own stroke just seems rather simple to me for a certification for the 'position' of INSTRUCTOR.

No offense to the OP.

Best Wishes,

 

[sfleinen]

I totally agree with your last statement.

I have passed several Liscensing Tests (& I do not mean Drivers Liscense) & I have been 'certified' to have taken required classes & passed the required testing in several fields. I understand education & 'certification'.

So there was no need on my part for you to interject & 'defend' PBIA Instructor Certification.

A long weekend by someone seeking help for their own stroke just seems rather simple to me for a certification for the 'position' of INSTRUCTOR.

No offense to the OP.

Best Wishes,

Actually, there was a need for me to interject and defend PBIA Instructor Certification -- because I was showing you a different angle, that perhaps other posters in this particular business could not. I felt I could offer a different viewpoint, and I did.

Your notion of the definition of "instructor" is completely skewed -- that is why I replied. That is why I jumped in, because I saw it from 20 feet away. If a course syllabus (no matter how long or short) concludes in the title of "certified instructor" bestowed upon the student of that course, so what? There are instructors for all types of things. If I take a week-long course in "Teaching how to configure home-office network equipment for SOHO business use," and it concludes in an instructor certification, does that mean I'm not an instructor because it doesn't fit your definition of what an "instructor" is?

And, please -- if you're going there -- spare me the "I don't need you to jump in, this is between the OP, Scott Lee, and myself" innuendo. This is a public board and forum. I will speak my mind, when I feel like it.

I'm not sticking up for Scott or any of the other instructors as much as I'm sticking up for what the purpose of "certification" and "instructor" is. That was the bailiwick I think you have an issue with, and I actually intended my post to not just be a correction, but constructive as well.

-Sean

 

[Scott Lee]

But, see, that's where you're misinformed. boyersj is interested in not only improving his own knowledge and skill, for his own purposes...but also interested in passing that information on to others who will seek him out. Certification by the PBIA is just one route to that end. In the end, it is, again, different strokes for different folks.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

A long weekend by someone seeking help for their own stroke just seems rather simple to me for a certification for the 'position' of INSTRUCTOR.
,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Actually, there was a need for me to interject and defend PBIA Instructor Certification -- because I was showing you a different angle, that perhaps other posters in this particular business could not. I felt I could offer a different viewpoint, and I did.

Your notion of the definition of "instructor" is completely skewed -- that is why I replied. That is why I jumped in, because I saw it from 20 feet away. If a course syllabus (no matter how long or short) concludes in the title of "certified instructor" bestowed upon the student of that course, so what? There are instructors for all types of things. If I take a week-long course in "Teaching how to configure home-office network equipment for SOHO business use," and it concludes in an instructor certification, does that mean I'm not an instructor because it doesn't fit your definition of what an "instructor" is?

And, please -- if you're going there -- spare me the "I don't need you to jump in, this is between the OP, Scott Lee, and myself" innuendo. This is a public board and forum. I will speak my mind, when I feel like it.

I'm not sticking up for Scott or any of the other instructors as much as I'm sticking up for what the purpose of "certification" and "instructor" is. That was the bailiwick I think you have an issue with, and I actually intended my post to not just be a correction, but constructive as well.

-Sean

What's your point for this post.

I was not suggesting that you not express your opinin. Perhaps the choice of the word 'interject' was a poor choice. As you & others, I too will speak my mind.

I was merely stating that I, did not need you to explain or defend, to me, what the process of 'certification' is as I have been certified & liscenced in several fields, which is contary to what you seemed to be implying about me in your first post. I was in no need of correction by you as I, from experience, know about certification processes.

I was a bit surprised to learn that all it takes is passing a three(3) day course to become a PBIA Certified Instructor. Given all of the times that I have seen it stressed that one should seek out & make sure that one's instructor is certified, I thought that there was more to it than just that.

It seems that one can become a cetified instructor way faster than one can learn a really good stroke.

Best Wishes,

 

[ENGLISH!]

But, see, that's where you're misinformed. boyersj is interested in not only improving his own knowledge and skill, for his own purposes...but also interested in passing that information on to others who will seek him out. Certification by the PBIA is just one route to that end. In the end, it is, again, different strokes for different folks.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee,

I understand.

However I was not 'misinformed' as I was never 'informed'.:wink:

Best Wishes,

 

[sfleinen]

What's your point for this post.

I was not suggesting that you not express your opinin. Perhaps the choice of the word 'interject' was a poor choice. As you & others, I too will speak my mind.

Yes, that was it indeed -- the word "interject" is what set the wheels in motion for my post. Glad you self-diagnosed that. It's that couching and packaging thing, remember?

I was merely stating that I, did not need you to explain or defend, to me, what the process of 'certification' is as I have been certified & liscenced in several fields, which is contary to what you seemed to be implying about me in your first post. I was in no need of correction by you as I, from experience, know about certification processes.

See my reply above.

I was a bit surprised to learn that all it takes is passing a three(3) day course to become a PBIA Certified Instructor. Given all of the times that I have seen it stressed that one should seek out & make sure that one's instructor is certified, I thought that there was more to it than just that.

It seems that one can become a cetified instructor way faster than one can learn a really good stroke.

Best Wishes,

Ah, but see, now we get into that really sticky realm of "what constitutes an instructor" thing again. And if we were to take that question one step further, we know want to know how "sporty" a particular instructor plays. And, if we take that one step even further, we get into the question of "level of sportiness = likelihood that the material is 'sound'."

And, IMHO, we are going in the wrong direction. That's NOT what an instructor is about. An instructor is about transferring knowledge, not about how many tournaments he/she has won.

Finally, your personal definition of a "good stroke" is at the ROOT of all your disagreements with all this "instructor" business, is it not?

-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Finally, your personal definition of a "good stroke" is at the ROOT of all your disagreements with all this "instructor" business, is it not?

-Sean

Since you asked, & a lawyer should never ask a question to which he or she does not know the answer, I could take this opportunity to bring it all out into the open & perhaps re-open 6 month old wounds that may actually be healing & out of deference to that person & that posibility, I will simply say no, that is not the ROOT of a problem that I had.

Also, I am not aware that I have any instructor 'business' unless you are referring to the aforementioned personal problem.

To which personal definition of a "good stroke" are you referring? I am not aware that I have formed any specific personal definiton of a "good stroke"

So, I have no idea what you mean by your generalized statement above.

Would you care to elaborate or should we just chalk it up to a misunderstanding?

Best Wishes,

 

[sfleinen]

Since you asked, & a lawyer should never ask a question to which he or she does not know the answer, I could take this opportunity to bring it all out into the open & perhaps re-open 6 month old wounds that may actually be healing & out of deference to that person & that posibility, I will simply say no, that is not the ROOT of a problem that I had.

What is this? Yoda-speak?

Also, I am not aware that I have any instructor 'business' unless you are referring to the aforementioned personal problem.

To which personal definition of a "good stroke" are you referring? I am not aware that I have formed any specific personal definiton of a "good stroke"

So, I have no idea what you mean by your generalized statement above.

Oh, but you do. Just reference Pat Johnson's "What constitutes a good stroke?" and other threads where you were a lively participant, and all this fallout between you and the "instructors" took place. Remember all those ridiculous trebuchet and projectile-from-a-tube analogies? I'm sure you do, if you're honest with yourself.

Would you care to elaborate or should we just chalk it up to a misunderstanding?

Best Wishes,

Be honest with yourself. You *do* know what I'm talking about, and are just being evasive. Anyone who has read those threads can tell you the same.

-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

What is this? Yoda-speak? I was not aware that the word 'no' in response to a question was Yoda-speak.

Oh, but you do. Just reference Pat Johnson's "What constitutes a good stroke?" and other threads where you were a lively participant, and all this fallout between you and the "instructors" took place. Remember all those ridiculous trebuchet and projectile-from-a-tube analogies? I'm sure you do, if you're honest with yourself. Where in any of that 'discussion' did I express a personal 'definition' of what constitues a "good stroke"?


Be honest with yourself. You *do* know what I'm talking about, and are just being evasive. Anyone who has read those threads can tell you the same.

Now you're saying that I am dishonest. No offense but you seem to be acting like a troll trying to resurrect a heated 'discussion' from some time back in another forum for no constructive purpose. I will not be a party to such. IMHO It is inappropriate, especially in this forum.

-Sean

Please see the 'blue' above.

I'm heading out to ring in the New Year with Family.

Best Wishes & Happy New Year to You,

 

[sfleinen]

Please see the 'blue' above.

Best Wishes,

Troll? <yawn> I'm done with this, Rick. I'm not going to do the "red pill" thing with you, nor am I going to even waste my time responding now that you're accusing me of being a troll.

Have fun.
-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Troll? <yawn> I'm done with this, Rick. I'm not going to do the "red pill" thing with you, nor am I going to even waste my time responding now that you're accusing me of being a troll.

Have fun.
-Sean

I'm very glad you're done.

But, let's be clear... I did not accuse you of being a troll. I merely said, 'no offense but you seem to be acting like a troll'. I certainly do not think that you normally act like a troll.

Also, your 'not responding' is in no way with any regard to any thing that I initiated with you. I was responding to what you initiated with me.

I just want to make clear the reality of this exchange.

Best Wishes, Regards, & Have a Happy New Year, Sincerely,

 

[boyersj]

All I am going to say is WOW. I pursue trying to make a positive impact and the result is a negative shift in what was previously a positive thread.

1. I have been a student of this game for more than a decade, actually about 17 yrs. I am not "great" but I understand well enough to help those who have gotten stuck in their personal ascent.

2. As Scott indicated it is not easy. There is a time commitment above and beyond that which is required to learn how to become a teacher and provide others with the benefit of pool knowledge that I have discussed via phone with Mr Lee. Anyone can rambunctiously teach, but how do you KNOW the method is appropriate?

3. There is a "not to be ignored" financial investment to be fortunate enough to have such diligent education and training. I have had many people ask me to teach them to be better. I decided before I went down that road, i wanted some formal training myself other than the books, observation, and "on the table" experience.

4. This is probably the most important point I will make. I am a good player, respected in this area and also where I began playing pool. I have never been the best but well respected nonetheless. Wanting to be the best is one thing, but that is not my objective. I have a career and do not have the time to become a "champion" but i can share my years of knowledge with the refinement of an experienced and world re-known instructor. If you look through beginning of the thread, my concern has not nor will ever be about my own game. My concern was precisely this: Is what you see evidence that I can translate what I do to other players looking to improve. I already know the answer in my own heart but I was looking for some professional affirmation.

I am disappointed in anyone over looking these very simple points. Think about this one variable. An adult can achieve a high school education general equivalence diploma by taking a 6 hour test, evading 4 years of learning. They must have however learned that material somewhere. I don't agree with the GED program but the US government does. I am quite happy with my BSMET from Purdue and my 10 year career as a manufacturing engineer. I believe that by the end of the weekend my 17 years of billiard exposure, studying, and development will be worthy of membership into the PBIA>

To Mr. Scott Lee:
I apologize for the direction of this thread. I have truly been amazed at the change in tone in this thread. I regret posting anything and will refrain from future posts. It is quite obviosu that there is not total community interest to improve the game development for all who are interested without creating some level of drama. I hope you have a safe trip!

 

[TheThaiger]

And if we were to take that question one step further, we know want to know how "sporty" a particular instructor plays.

We do want to know how sporty they play. The silence was deafening.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=292972

 

[TheThaiger]

I've not read this thread very carefully, but is my summary of events correct?

Someone asks for help with his stroke, he goes to an instructor for 3 days, then, after shelling out a load of money, suddenly becomes qualified to talk about other people's strokes.

Have I got that right?

 

[TheThaiger]

Also, your 'not responding' is in no way with any regard to any thing that I initiated with you. I was responding to what you initiated with me.

It's classic Sean. Cue much faux outrage and a condescending strop-off. I don't think he even knows he does it.

Pull the lion's tail and complain about the retaliation.

 

[ENGLISH!]

boyersj,

I think what you are doing is fantastic. I was merely surprised by the quickness of it all as it appeared 'here'. I thought the 3 day session was just the final exam after some other more extensive organized study. I was not aware that one could become ceritified through only a 3 day session.

Please do not let this exchange keep you from posting as AZB needs more sincere opinions & info from as many knowledgable sources as possible. Diversity is a good thing.

I'm sorry & apologize for what my question brought upon this thread. Perhaps I should have PM'd you.

Enjoy your session with Mr. Lee & soak up all that you can & I hope you pass the test & get your certification.

Best Wishes & Regards,

 

[oshua86]

boyersj,

I think what you are doing is fantastic. I was merely surprised by the quickness of it all as it appeared 'here'. I thought the 3 day session was just the final exam after some other more extensive organized study. I was not aware that one could become ceritified through only a 3 day session.

Please do not let this exchange keep you from posting as AZB needs more sincere opinions & info from as many knowledgable sources as possible. Diversity is a good thing.

I'm sorry & apologize for what my question brought upon this thread. Perhaps I should have PM'd you.

Enjoy your session with Mr. Lee & soak up all that you can & I hope you pass the test & get your certification.

Best Wishes & Regards,

Whenever I read one of your posts that sounds "weird", I look at your signature:

"I'm just a soul, whose intentions are good!
Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood!"

....and then everything is good again. lol

 

[justadub]

All I am going to say is WOW. I pursue trying to make a positive impact and the result is a negative shift in what was previously a positive thread.

1. I have been a student of this game for more than a decade, actually about 17 yrs. I am not "great" but I understand well enough to help those who have gotten stuck in their personal ascent.

2. As Scott indicated it is not easy. There is a time commitment above and beyond that which is required to learn how to become a teacher and provide others with the benefit of pool knowledge that I have discussed via phone with Mr Lee. Anyone can rambunctiously teach, but how do you KNOW the method is appropriate?

3. There is a "not to be ignored" financial investment to be fortunate enough to have such diligent education and training. I have had many people ask me to teach them to be better. I decided before I went down that road, i wanted some formal training myself other than the books, observation, and "on the table" experience.

4. This is probably the most important point I will make. I am a good player, respected in this area and also where I began playing pool. I have never been the best but well respected nonetheless. Wanting to be the best is one thing, but that is not my objective. I have a career and do not have the time to become a "champion" but i can share my years of knowledge with the refinement of an experienced and world re-known instructor. If you look through beginning of the thread, my concern has not nor will ever be about my own game. My concern was precisely this: Is what you see evidence that I can translate what I do to other players looking to improve. I already know the answer in my own heart but I was looking for some professional affirmation.

I am disappointed in anyone over looking these very simple points. Think about this one variable. An adult can achieve a high school education general equivalence diploma by taking a 6 hour test, evading 4 years of learning. They must have however learned that material somewhere. I don't agree with the GED program but the US government does. I am quite happy with my BSMET from Purdue and my 10 year career as a manufacturing engineer. I believe that by the end of the weekend my 17 years of billiard exposure, studying, and development will be worthy of membership into the PBIA>

To Mr. Scott Lee:
I apologize for the direction of this thread. I have truly been amazed at the change in tone in this thread. I regret posting anything and will refrain from future posts. It is quite obviosu that there is not total community interest to improve the game development for all who are interested without creating some level of drama. I hope you have a safe trip!

PLEASE do not stop posting here, especially based on the turn of this thread.

You have a lot to offer, and a fine way of expressing yourself here. If Fran, Randy and Scott like what they see, and more importantly have had good exchanges with you, then you are part of the solution to the ills this forum has.

No forum that is open to all will run as smoothly as many of us would like. That is. An unfortunate side effect of having so many people, from so many backgrounds, with such diverse personalities all participating.

If stuff seems to get too far out of hand for your tastes, by all means step away. But please don't "go away", take a break and come back. I really enjoyed reading about your pursuit of improvement, and your interactions with Randy and Scott. I looked forward to reading how it all went with Scott, and how you see things differently coming from the instructors point of view.

Best of luck, enjoy your time with Scott, and please come back and tell us about it.

There are a lot more people reading than post in these threads.....don't forget them.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Whenever I read one of your posts that sounds "weird", I look at your signature:

"I'm just a soul, whose intentions are good!
Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood!"

....and then everything is good again. lol

oshua,

Thank you. I appreciate that. It is difficult to communicate in general, much more so in just text with no tone, inflection or even a visual perception available. True communication &/or lack there of is the biggest problem in the world.

When I noticed how often my intentions were mistaken or misunderstood, I added that in hope that some would give more consideration before making snap judgements.

You are the second person to comment regarding it.

Thanks again & have a Happy New Year,