The base of the problem with the sport

Beware_of_Dawg

Beware_of_Dawg

..................
Silver Member
I could, and very well should write an entire analysis of the effect this very simple fact has on the sports "image" or "perception" to the masses. Now not to say that the masses think of this very fact as I'm going to state it... but the residual waves of this fact form the stereotypes and perceptions that people have about our sport...

pool sharks are celebrated.

think about the public's streotype of what a pool shark is... the image in their head, the personality type that is the "idea" of what are "shark" is and what they are percieved to be out to do to people... a real "slickster", even a con man, tricking or cheating people out of their money...

think about that image, and you'll begin to see what stereotype is burned into the psyche of the masses about our sport and the type of person that is involved heavily or successful in our sport...

It goes much deeper obviously, But it's my opinion that this is the single underlying fact that is the base of the problem.

This thought popped into my head as I was thinking about the boxing and the incredible decrease in the publics interest in that sport... that boxing seems fixed, rigged, thats everything isnt on the up and up. I say the word "boxing" in my head I think "fixed" followed by Don KIngs image popping in my head... Then I thought wait... Ask a group of people to play "I'll say a word, you give me the first word that pops in your head" say... "Pool" I'll bet 90% say "shark"

This is an opinion I had and a random thought. But I do think it's right on.

Please discuss or flame away or anything... these are things that pop into my head when I think about the health of the sport that is one of my passions....
 
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Boxing lost it's lure due to the lack of a consistant heavyweight division. Boxing's biggest draw for the most part has always been the heavyweight division. Nobody truely followed up where Mike Tyson left off.

Pool is another different animal that just really has taken hold since we came out of the great depression.
 
Kevin Lindstrom said:
Boxing lost it's lure due to the lack of a consistant heavyweight division. Boxing's biggest draw for the most part has always been the heavyweight division. Nobody truely followed up where Mike Tyson left off.
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I respectfully disagree. Not to say your explantion doesnt carry any merit, but I do think my argument carries a lot of weight and the boxing analogy was just a piece of my thought string... perhaps other analogies would be better. But the fact is when people that dont know a whole lot about the sport of pool, think about it they do think of pool sharks and hustlers and con men...

Kevin Lindstrom said:
Pool is another different animal that just really has taken hold since we came out of the great depression.
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But why??, deep down, what is the single biggest reason?

It is the perception of what the sport is. Not to you, not to the people that you know that play the sport... to the MASSES, the would-be future players and fans of the sport.
 
What word association gets labled with a card player, card "shark". Probably more so than pool. This is not the root of the evil, but one of the contributing factors. Not just players either, this applies to sharks running leagues, tournaments, tours, rooms, etc. There seems to be people all over the sport that want a quick buck. Turns people off.
 
I have said before that raising hustlers and other con-men onto a pedestal is a huge part of our sport's poor image. I also don't believe it will go away until a couple more generations have passed. I make sure to stop everybody that calls me a pool shark or hustler and explain to them I don't cheat people out of money and I only play tournaments and league. I feel insulted when someone calls me a hustler or pool shark.
 
Oh lord, another one of these threads.

When will people wake up and realize that pool's popularity has nothing to do with sharks/hustlers? When the Hustler came out, it gave pool a shot in the arm for a brief period. When The Color of Money came out it, it did just the same. And believe it or not, these were movies involving hustlers.

Pool is not popular because people don't like it as much as we do. There's not enough interest in it. Therefore, not enough money for sponsors, tournaments, tours, etc etc etc.
 
StevenPWaldon said:
Oh lord, another one of these threads.

When will people wake up and realize that pool's popularity has nothing to do with sharks/hustlers? When the Hustler came out, it gave pool a shot in the arm for a brief period. When The Color of Money came out it, it did just the same. And believe it or not, these were movies involving hustlers.

Pool is not popular because people don't like it as much as we do. There's not enough interest in it. Therefore, not enough money for sponsors, tournaments, tours, etc etc etc.
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Pool will never be a sport for the "masses" and I don't think hustlers or sharks have anything to do with it.

What's needed to play pool? A table, cues, balls, chalk a rack, etc., etc...
Not everybody has a pool table at their house
I some locations, there are no pool halls. The only place to find a table is a bar. Not a good place for kids. Pool rooms are often smokey and or stinky places that rarely get fresh air.

Couple all of the above with the fact that it's not something to keep in shape with......no wonder it isn't sport for the masses.

Hustlers and sharks have little to do with it
 
IMO the movies may have given the game a bump, but also totally reinforced all the negative stereotypes associated with it. I doubt if any game gains in the long run from publicity that players are laying down in world class events to grease their wallets, or trying to rob someone on the road. Look at the stain on certain pro sportsmans rep. for gambling and that wasn't even for laying down.

In the 90's I remember Earl coming to town doing exhibitions, and challenge matches with the fans, and promoting pool to America. I don't know who was footing the bill, but I sure would like to see that kind of thing everywhere. There are plenty of players who could give a little to the game. After watching the Desert Shoot Out I know that the sport has a HUGE quantity of quality players that are quality people. I hope that the next stage allows real pool to get to the masses. JMHO

td
 
I don't play cards, so correct me if I'm wrong but...

Everyone always mentions poker in these threads, but perhaps all the "wanna be sharks" flock towards cards and don't have any time left to play pool. They probably tried both and realize they get spanked at pool.

Playing out of one's league can get one spanked at poker too, but there's always the possibility of short-term luck, and or the belief that it was just bad luck that caused a loss. I would imagine that people overestimate their skill at cards even more so than they do at pool, even though it happens a lot in pool too.

Poker skills or lack thereof can easily be mistaken for luck. You can try your hardest to win, and your speed will still be unknown by your opponents. You can't really say that for pool. That probably keeps a steady flow of suckers into the game of poker.

So perhaps that's a factor in why cards is doing well in the states and pool isn't. Again, I don't play cards, so I could be totally wrong, but it's a thought that came to mind so I figured I'd through it out there. :D
 
Actually, I find considerable wisdom in the initial post. Still, the question is whether the pool scene is frowned on because of the hustler or whether the hustler's presence is a consequence of the seediness of the pool scene. The answer is not so simple, but whatever the reality, the omnipresence of hustlers ensures that parents won't choose pool for their children as often as they otherwise might and, as so many on this forum have often pointed out with eloquence, that reality is part of what keeps pool down.

On this forum, it is often suggested that those who gamble but don't misrepresent their speed are not part of the problem, but I strongly disagree. Even those players contribute to creating the wrong environment in poolrooms for young players.

American society views places where gambling takes place as inappropriate for minors, and in many cases, minors are barred or discouraged from entering such places. Pool is a game that, by its very nature, is shutting out the kids, and it has, is, and will continue to pay a price for it.
 
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Part of the reason we love pool so much is the same reason it is not so popular.

It is extremely challenging.

Beginners simply can't make a ball. Even when they have a duck they get excited and try to hit it hard and miss.

I have a pretty strong tennis background and I thought that the sport would be more popular if two beginners could actually have a rally that lasted more than 3 shots.

Chess is clearly the best board game but it's not as popular as the likes of Monopoly and Scrabble by a long shot.

That's my theory.
 
When I first got into pool about 20 years ago in HS, parents didn't like that idea of that because of the gambling and hustling stigma associated with pool. They themselves were in there 50's and 60s and never played the game, nor watched any of the pool movies. Fortunately for us, in my area pool halls are more like game rooms than bars. There is no alcohol, rooms are fairly well lit (Except for Hawaiian Brians), so the atmosphere is not your typical bar room drinking and hustling feel.

I'm not sure why people often view pool in such poor light, but I do personally believe it is the gambling, hustling, drinking, drugs stigma whether right or wrong. Those are the things that people mentioned too me in the past when talking about pool. The funny thing is I too don't like any of those. I rarely gamble, I don't hustle at all since I play mostly for fun (Plus I suck), I don't drink or smoke at all, and I don't do drugs, yet I love to play pool.
 
Luxury said:
Part of the reason we love pool so much is the same reason it is not so popular.

It is extremely challenging.

Beginners simply can't make a ball. Even when they have a duck they get excited and try to hit it hard and miss.

I have a pretty strong tennis background and I thought that the sport would be more popular if two beginners could actually have a rally that lasted more than 3 shots.

Chess is clearly the best board game but it's not as popular as the likes of Monopoly and Scrabble by a long shot.

That's my theory.
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You could be right but personally disagree. We have to compare apples with apples.

Most beginners who can't make a ball after a little practice on a pool table are the same people who wouldn't be able to hit the tennis ball over the net and in court after some reasonably equivalent practice time and who can't do the simplest of basic moves in other sports involving a ball or balls i.e those with a lack of instinctive hand eye coordination and timing.

There's also very little to lead us to a conclusion that, relative to other basic sporting moves, it is difficult for reasonably well coordinated individuals to make pool balls soon after taking the game up. If anything the potting of pool balls screams out as being one of the easier basic sport moves for those individuals to achieve quickly after taking up the sport concerned, especially those who are instinctively well coordinated with a good sense of timing but who are also shall we say "weight challenged" or just plain lazy.

I fact if I had to plump for just one of the two things I'd speculate that the fact that pool is perceived by beginners and bangers as being too easy a sport costs the sport more potential 'lifetime' players from the "coordinated" sector of the population than any perception of it being difficult does.

I think Steve Waldon nailed it in as much brevity as is possible in an earlier post. Pool is unpopular because most people find it fundamentally boring to either play or watch and not enough people like it as much as we do. Just about everything else, especially funding and sponsorship issues, arise from that underlying reality. The seedy image perception issue (including the specific sub division of that being discussed here, i.e sharks etc) obviously has a supplementary effect but pool doesn't seem to have too big a problem in surmounting that in The Far East.
 
I believe that the allure of the road player (hustler, con man, whatever you want to call it) is the most appealing aspect of pool to new people. Granted, many people will be turned off by that but IMO, pool is and never will be accepted to the masses. The game itself is very difficult to become proficient in and takes lots and lots of time to even get to the point of making just a few balls somewhat consistently. As another poster pointed out, TCOM and The Hustler contributed heavily to the popularity of the game and they were all about the hustler and road player.

From all the threads concerning this topic, I know that I'm in the minority w/ this way of thinking but oh well. If it wasn't for the hustler/road player history of the game, I definitely would not be playing pool as much as I do now.

Ryan
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
I could, and very well should write an entire analysis of the effect this very simple fact has on the sports "image" or "perception" to the masses. Now not to say that the masses think of this very fact as I'm going to state it... but the residual waves of this fact form the stereotypes and perceptions that people have about our sport...

pool sharks are celebrated.

think about the public's streotype of what a pool shark is... the image in their head, the personality type that is the "idea" of what are "shark" is and what they are percieved to be out to do to people... a real "slickster", even a con man, tricking or cheating people out of their money...

think about that image, and you'll begin to see what stereotype is burned into the psyche of the masses about our sport and the type of person that is involved heavily or successful in our sport...

It goes much deeper obviously, But it's my opinion that this is the single underlying fact that is the base of the problem.

This thought popped into my head as I was thinking about the boxing and the incredible decrease in the publics interest in that sport... that boxing seems fixed, rigged, thats everything isnt on the up and up. I say the word "boxing" in my head I think "fixed" followed by Don KIngs image popping in my head... Then I thought wait... Ask a group of people to play "I'll say a word, you give me the first word that pops in your head" say... "Pool" I'll bet 90% say "shark"

This is an opinion I had and a random thought. But I do think it's right on.

Please discuss or flame away or anything... these are things that pop into my head when I think about the health of the sport that is one of my passions....
Click to expand...

Basically, I see it as pool not viewing well on a tv screen and the game being too difficult for someone to spend the time and energy to learn the game, people nowadays want everything to be fast, quick and look easy, like www.worldpokertour.com ...
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
I could, and very well should write an entire analysis of the effect this very simple fact has on the sports "image" or "perception" to the masses. Now not to say that the masses think of this very fact as I'm going to state it... but the residual waves of this fact form the stereotypes and perceptions that people have about our sport...

pool sharks are celebrated.

think about the public's streotype of what a pool shark is... the image in their head, the personality type that is the "idea" of what are "shark" is and what they are percieved to be out to do to people... a real "slickster", even a con man, tricking or cheating people out of their money...

think about that image, and you'll begin to see what stereotype is burned into the psyche of the masses about our sport and the type of person that is involved heavily or successful in our sport...

It goes much deeper obviously, But it's my opinion that this is the single underlying fact that is the base of the problem.

This thought popped into my head as I was thinking about the boxing and the incredible decrease in the publics interest in that sport... that boxing seems fixed, rigged, thats everything isnt on the up and up. I say the word "boxing" in my head I think "fixed" followed by Don KIngs image popping in my head... Then I thought wait... Ask a group of people to play "I'll say a word, you give me the first word that pops in your head" say... "Pool" I'll bet 90% say "shark"

This is an opinion I had and a random thought. But I do think it's right on.

Please discuss or flame away or anything... these are things that pop into my head when I think about the health of the sport that is one of my passions....
Click to expand...


I think you are totally wrong. The problem with pool is that the people trying to promote the game to the masses are always trying to get away from the gambling/hustler aspect of the culture. It is that very dynamic that people would find the most fascinating about pool. ESPN coverage of pool is so bad that I cannot even watch, and I've been around pool all of my life. If they would just embrace the hustler image of pool instead of trying to make pro pool players look like pro bowlers, people might just find some interest in this culture.
Why did poker become so popular on TV in the last decade? It isn't the tournament format of poker, it's the fact that people are making a living at gambling that sparks the average person's interest. Pool is a much tougher game to learn and has a lot more personality if they would just let the personality shine through. You mentioned how boxing is sleazy and that public interest is down in recent years. Do you know how much Oscar De la Hoya made for his last fight against Floyd Mayweather? He made around $32 million that night. Not bad for a sport with a damaged image that people think is irreleveant, right?
In the last 25 years pool was at its peak when? It was after The Color of Money which was about hustling. There was a similar spike in popularity when The Hustler was made. What does that tell you? It tells me that people are interested in the hustling lifestyle and maybe one of these days someone will catch on to this and pool will see a similar spike that poker has seen in recent years.
 
The fast, quick, and easy aspect might be a big part of it. One has to look at what it takes to actually play pool these days. If you're new, you have to actually get in the car, go to a pool hall where you may not know anyone, and just start playing with yourself or some friends. Everytime you go play, it costs you more money. In lots of smaller towns, you probably don't have a pool hall, which limits you to bars and friends with tables only. Once you're actually playing, the learning curve is pretty high and it takes regular practice just to get a basic grasp of things. That all keeps exposure for the younger generation to a minimum. If you want to play at home, it's a major investment with having to have an extra room, buy a table, balls, sticks, etc. etc. This also keeps the younger generation from playing.

It's not like that with other sports. If you want to play football, all you need is a football and some friends. If you want to play basketball, go buy a $50 hoop for your driveway and a basketball. Baseball? A few mitts, ball, and a bat. All of these things don't cost much and are much easier to purchase, use, and store, which is what everything is about these days.

Pool is anything but quick, fast, easy, or cheap.
 
Hierovision said:
I have said before that raising hustlers and other con-men onto a pedestal is a huge part of our sport's poor image. I also don't believe it will go away until a couple more generations have passed. I make sure to stop everybody that calls me a pool shark or hustler and explain to them I don't cheat people out of money and I only play tournaments and league. I feel insulted when someone calls me a hustler or pool shark.
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GREAT POST.:D
 
Let me interject an idea. A great pool player has the precision with his Cue to make a Cue Ball, and Object Ball behave with in a very narrow margin of accuracy. Like a Neurosurgeon has the ability to work in and on very small spaces with his Surgical Knife. The Neurosurgeon is compensated for his skill, but the pool player is no.
 
Nice thread.

My take is that Hustlers and Sharks, and that whole vibe, the film myth version and real stories, actually give pool the edge that brings more people in than anything else.

Once in -they see how awesome a game it is!

But let's not kid ourselves, Pool will NEVER have a wide TV audience. No wide audience; no commercial $. No commercial $,; no big salaries or prizes. It's a 'cottage' sport with some big tourneys and some big names. (Pool players know them) No multi million salaries though. No pictures on the Wheaties box. All the reasons for this are listed in all the above threads.

Hustling, like it or not will always be associated with pool. I take no part in it, and just like to play, but don't be so quick to want it purged, without that mythical vibe the sport might be less popular than it is right now.
 
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