The cost of a Custom Cue

[shakes]

Paul, No offence but this is exactly the attitude that I spoke about in another posting. Who Cares what you have investedie, time money, equiptment. The end product is what really matters the most. If someone else made the exact cue in half the time with less cost in material should he get less. This type of attitude has to go by the wayside!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO, 1) "Who cares what you have invested?"
1a) The obvious answer here is: Paul does. He has put himself and his financials at risk, and he needs a return on his investment. In business, you have to look at what money is going out (overhead) and charge accordingly to make sure you cover that, and HOPEFULLY make a profit.

2)"If someone else made the exact cue in half the time with less cost in material should he get less?"
2a) There are two schools of thought here. The first (as evidenced by Mr. Wheat) says yes, you should most assuredly charge much less. The second, (as evidenced by the oil companies) is no, you should charge whatever the market will grudgingly allow.

Personally, I think that most companies that are putting out a limited number of their product (in any industry, not just pool cues) should put a number on how many items they are going to produce in a year, and stick to it. You always want your customers wanting more, so try and leave that number (5 to 5,000,000) just short of the demand. If you do that, then the secondary market will tell you what you should be charging for your work. If you grossly underestimate the demand for your cues, or if they increase because of sudden popularity, then increase your numbers for the next year. If you overestimated, and have cues left over, then keep them in stock, and adjust your total production for the next year to be lower. Simple supply and demand.

 

[bubsbug]

IMO, 1) "Who cares what you have invested?"
1a) The obvious answer here is: Paul does. He has put himself and his financials at risk, and he needs a return on his investment. In business, you have to look at what money is going out (overhead) and charge accordingly to make sure you cover that, and HOPEFULLY make a profit.

2)"If someone else made the exact cue in half the time with less cost in material should he get less?"
2a) There are two schools of thought here. The first (as evidenced by Mr. Wheat) says yes, you should most assuredly charge much less. The second, (as evidenced by the oil companies) is no, you should charge whatever the market will grudgingly allow.

Personally, I think that most companies that are putting out a limited number of their product (in any industry, not just pool cues) should put a number on how many items they are going to produce in a year, and stick to it. You always want your customers wanting more, so try and leave that number (5 to 5,000,000) just short of the demand. If you do that, then the secondary market will tell you what you should be charging for your work. If you grossly underestimate the demand for your cues, or if they increase because of sudden popularity, then increase your numbers for the next year. If you overestimated, and have cues left over, then keep them in stock, and adjust your total production for the next year to be lower. Simple supply and demand.

I dont disagree with you at all. One of the biggest reasons for high pricing in the billiard industry (meaning building/reparing) is because it is a very limited market. How many people in this world are going to purchase a custom cue or have repair work done next year? Add in the expence of a quality shop and yea you have a big nut to crack just to break even. But even so does this justify high prices?? No, and it never will because its market driven. This is one reason why you cant compare billiards to other markets, espically the medical pharmacutical world. If that $ 15 dollar pill was the cure for cancer would it be wouth it? What If it just keeps you out of the hospital for one day? Compute the cost of a hospital stay and watch your savings grow.

1a) The obvious answer here is: Paul does. He has put himself and his financials at risk, and he needs a return on his investment.

Again, who care, As a customer I could care less, I want it, its seems fair, so I will buy it. In any bussiness the customer should be the highest priority. Its really sad that a lot of companies are going in the opposite direction.

Personally I would never spend $1000 on a custom cue unless I could sell it for more. I certainly dont have an opinion one way or another. I recently spent $1000 on a juggs radar gun thinking my son is going to be the next Nolon Ryan. A lot of people would say that this is stupid and perhaps it is but its my $1000. I just have a problem with CM's thinking they deserve something because of there investment.

 

[Tony Zinzola]

I dont disagree with you at all. One of the biggest reasons for high pricing in the billiard industry (meaning building/reparing) is because it is a very limited market. How many people in this world are going to purchase a custom cue or have repair work done next year? Add in the expence of a quality shop and yea you have a big nut to crack just to break even. But even so does this justify high prices?? No, and it never will because its market driven. This is one reason why you cant compare billiards to other markets, espically the medical pharmacutical world. If that $ 15 dollar pill was the cure for cancer would it be wouth it? What If it just keeps you out of the hospital for one day? Compute the cost of a hospital stay and watch your savings grow.

1a) The obvious answer here is: Paul does. He has put himself and his financials at risk, and he needs a return on his investment.

Again, who care, As a customer I could care less, I want it, its seems fair, so I will buy it. In any bussiness the customer should be the highest priority. Its really sad that a lot of companies are going in the opposite direction.

Personally I would never spend $1000 on a custom cue unless I could sell it for more. I certainly dont have an opinion one way or another. I recently spent $1000 on a juggs radar gun thinking my son is going to be the next Nolon Ryan. A lot of people would say that this is stupid and perhaps it is but its my $1000. I just have a problem with CM's thinking they deserve something because of there investment.

Have you been to Paul's website? His prices aren't high at all. If you ask me, they are low for the amount of work he puts into his cues. According to his site, all of his inlays are done by hand. No CNC and no Pantograph. If that's the case, he should be getting 10 times what he's asking for his cues. Have you seen some of the detail in them?

I thought you were building cues? Are you going to give all of your cues away for free? I assume being in the medical field that you make a decent living. I'd argue that since you can't spell pharmaceutical correctly, you don't deserve that check.

I just don't understand how other cue makers can come on here and complain about what others are getting for their cues. Is it jealousy? If somebody gets 100X what I get for my cues, then I am happy for them. If they want to sell their cues cheap, then that's their choice.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Have you been to Paul's website? His prices aren't high at all. If you ask me, they are low for the amount of work he puts into his cues. According to his site, all of his inlays are done by hand. No CNC and no Pantograph. If that's the case, he should be getting 10 times what he's asking for his cues. Have you seen some of the detail in them?

I thought you were building cues? Are you going to give all of your cues away for free? I assume being in the medical field that you make a decent living. I'd argue that since you can't spell pharmaceutical correctly, you don't deserve that check.

I just don't understand how other cue makers can come on here and complain about what others are getting for their cues. Is it jealousy? If somebody gets 100X what I get for my cues, then I am happy for them. If they want to sell their cues cheap, then that's their choice.

tap tap tap
I wish I can charge Tad price but I can't.

 

[bubsbug]

Have you been to Paul's website? His prices aren't high at all. If you ask me, they are low for the amount of work he puts into his cues. According to his site, all of his inlays are done by hand. No CNC and no Pantograph. If that's the case, he should be getting 10 times what he's asking for his cues. Have you seen some of the detail in them?

I thought you were building cues? Are you going to give all of your cues away for free? I assume being in the medical field that you make a decent living. I'd argue that since you can't spell pharmaceutical correctly, you don't deserve that check.

I just don't understand how other cue makers can come on here and complain about what others are getting for their cues. Is it jealousy? If somebody gets 100X what I get for my cues, then I am happy for them. If they want to sell their cues cheap, then that's their choice.

I think you are missing my arguement here. I dont really care what any one charges for there cues. I also dont think that a typical customer cares if their cue was mand by CNC or hand inlayed. It really shouldnt matter how the cue was made to arive at fair market value. Notice I didnt say final cost? The market will decide this.

My real arguement here is the fact that most CM's have the same mentality as Pauls post. Just because you have a lot invested in tools, machines, wood, parts, LABOR and what ever else doesnt give you the right to over price. If you have a high price let it be because you have a one of a kind, great hitting, good looking cue. If CM's want respect then they have to show respect towards the customer and not come back at them with "Do you know how hard and how long I have worked on this" when the customer complains about high pricing. I am tired of the cry babby stuff. State your price and be done with it.

True I cant spell pharmacutical without looking it up. So, Im not perfect. Can you build a perfect cue? I bet I can show you 3 mistakes on any cue that you show me. Does this mean that you should not get paid.

 

[bubsbug]

Have you been to Paul's website? His prices aren't high at all. If you ask me, they are low for the amount of work he puts into his cues. According to his site, all of his inlays are done by hand. No CNC and no Pantograph. If that's the case, he should be getting 10 times what he's asking for his cues. Have you seen some of the detail in them?

I thought you were building cues? Are you going to give all of your cues away for free? I assume being in the medical field that you make a decent living. I'd argue that since you can't spell pharmaceutical correctly, you don't deserve that check.

I just don't understand how other cue makers can come on here and complain about what others are getting for their cues. Is it jealousy? If somebody gets 100X what I get for my cues, then I am happy for them. If they want to sell their cues cheap, then that's their choice.

One more thing, you should care about what others are getting for there cues. Without this information how can you decide what to sell your cues for.

I also would be willing to bet that if I were a company selling you a paticular item for x amount and later that next week our sister company was selling that same item for x amout minus 100x you would be pretty upsett. So no I dont buy your statement I think to some degree you do care. For me Im always for the guy getting screwed wether it be the customer or the CM's. Because it really does go both ways sometimes.

 

[Hidy Ho]

All I can say is the cuemaker that warned me that people on AZ don't think cue makers should make any money was dead on. If you don't like the prices somebody is getting for their cues, then don't buy them, don't come here and ***** about it.

Tony, don't let few sour-grapes get to you .. I don't think they speak for all or most AZer who appreciate custom cues. Many of us are thankful for all you custom cue makers.

Jazz <-- still need to get hold of Jamie for the order

 

[Flex]

I think you are missing my arguement here. I dont really care what any one charges for there cues. I also dont think that a typical customer cares if their cue was mand by CNC or hand inlayed. It really shouldnt matter how the cue was made to arive at fair market value. Notice I didnt say final cost? The market will decide this.

My real arguement here is the fact that most CM's have the same mentality as Pauls post. Just because you have a lot invested in tools, machines, wood, parts, LABOR and what ever else doesnt give you the right to over price. If you have a high price let it be because you have a one of a kind, great hitting, good looking cue. If CM's want respect then they have to show respect towards the customer and not come back at them with "Do you know how hard and how long I have worked on this" when the customer complains about high pricing. I am tired of the cry babby stuff. State your price and be done with it.

True I cant spell pharmacutical without looking it up. So, Im not perfect. Can you build a perfect cue? I bet I can show you 3 mistakes on any cue that you show me. Does this mean that you should not get paid.

I'm not impressed by the "do you know how long I worked on this" kind of plea.

If I go to have the tip on my cue changed, I'd like it done right away. Say in two minutes, or less. I'll gladly pay $10 for a decent tip installed that quickly. But if the fellow takes half an hour to do something that takes 5 minutes for a competent tip installer, what's that to me? He needs to improve his techniques to do it quicker. If he's a sharpie, he'll figure that out plenty quick.

Flex

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

State your price and be done with it.

Youre right. Cuemakers should follow the example of the medical field by saying this is the price take it or leave it.

Office visit $176.00 for less than five minutes
CTScan $2776.00
Unknown Doctor to read CTScan $224.00
ERCP $3890.00 for 30 minute procedure
2nd ERCP $3890.00 cause Dr wasnt sure about 1st ERCP
Final consultation to say Im healthy as a horse and probably didnt need the 2nd ERCP $176.00
Above not including hospital charges btw

Edit-Guess I better go to work and make a couple cues so I can pay all this

 

[Tony Zinzola]

This is a very good post that most CM's should learn from. "Arnot," no offence but are you kidding? To me those prices are rediculos. I think that most CM' are payed plenty. Anyone who can make $2,000 to $4,000 durring a long weekend is making fat cash. Yea, Yea, Yea I know that it is long, weary, tiring work, plus the expence of all equiptment, gas and everything that goes with it. Im just saying not to complain its really great money. Im sure that this doesn't even come close to a normal non-billiard paying job. What really gets me is the attitude that a lot of CM's have. They seem to think that because they have invested so much money in equiptment that they are owed "X" amount. I believe in what "Jimmy" said and that price is dictated by the market around you, and to a lesser extent craftmanship. Billiards is not a must have, cant live without accessoriy as say a home or auto is. With todays economy I see a lot of slow times a head for CM's and I hope that IM wrong, but we will see.


Also when asking for professional courticy you have to remember the market for which you cm's have chosen. It's much different then auto industry, medical industry, or even the carpet cleaning industry. The customers knows they are about to be screwed! The cost of materials are irrealavent and I blame the CM's for this, initially. Far to often the CM's start tallying everything up verbally in front of customers. who cares. State you price and then be done.

I don't know if I missing your argument or not. In this other thread, you told Arnot his prices were ridiculous. It seems you think some are charging too much for their cues. He must be selling some or he wouldn't be asking that price. He's also got quite a wide range of prices on his site, so there's probably a cue on there for everybody. That's a lot more than most cue makers would offer.

For example, my prices start out at $900 for a four point cue with veneers and ringwork. You may think that's high or you might think that is low. Nobody is forcing you to buy the cue. I really don't care if another cue maker is charging less or offers a sneaky or a conversion for $200-$300 or $3,000 for a cue similar to mine. I don't think I would sell many cues if I was trying to match the $3,000 guy and I'm not interested in competing with guys like Eddie Wheat or Kevin Varney (no offense to either of you, your names just pop up here frequently).

At the same time, the person could go to Arnot's site and decide that he likes his cues, but can't afford one of his high end customs, but there are still plenty of options available to them.

The cue market is no different than any other industry. There are choices and price ranges for everybody. You wouldn't walk into the Ferrari dealership and tell them that they should be charging less because it doesn't take them any more time to build the car than it takes to build a Ford would you? Hell, it probably takes less time because they're not made in America, so the workers probably aren't as lazy. Cues are no different. You can't expect to get a Szamboti for the price of a Player (do they even make those anymore?).

If you don't like the price, then don't buy it. If the prices are really too high, then the cue maker will realize it when he's not selling any cues. There's no need to come on here and complain.

 

[Flex]

For example, my prices start out at $900 for a four point cue with veneers and ringwork.

Sure would like to see some of your work. I took a look your website, but there's just a homepage, nothing but a "More Information Coming Soon!" and some other stuff.

Do you have any pictures you could post here?

Thanks!

Flex

 

[Rak9up]

One customers opinion

No business recoup's its startup cost overnite and most are in it for the long haul. The mark up of your product determines how fast you make that up cost and operate in the black(may take 20 or 30 years). What people are willing to pay bottom line will set the prices. Different poolhalls charge different rates per hour(some poolrooms could be free and I wouldn't shoot there)..different Cuemakers prices also vary(and some cues could be free and...well you know).

I guess I'm the problem. Over the years as my knowlege of the game and information on cues and cuemaking increased. I've become more scutinizing and demanding. What I'd would have bought 10 years ago or what I needed then was different than what I want and need now.

Plus I veiw cuemakers differently now then I did 20 years ago. "My" definition of a "custom" cuemaker vs a production I guess is different that the rest of the world.

If a stick is built prior to knowing who is going to buy it and no specific or unique modifications are added it is a production cue ie (Availible cues). If only asthetics are changed for a particular customer it is still a production cue. Like going on a car lot and getting Mustang in blue or red or automatic or standard these minor changes still make it a mustang. That is still a production car. So changing minor things on a cue IN MY OPINION still make them production cues.

There's nothing wrong with that (just semantics I guess) and at least you know the standard of the product your buying. Take Mr. Dayton I admire his work, great cuemaker deserves what he charges and you know your not getting a pinto or a gremlin but a much better cue.

If I overly nitpick any of the cuemakers/craftsman I apoligize up front.
I'm just getting more picky and and demanding in my old age of 45. I recognize the competion, recession, modernization effects both the customer and the cuemaker and also his prices.

 

[Flex]

No business recoup's its startup cost overnite and most are in it for the long haul. The mark up of your product determines how fast you make that up cost and operate in the black(may take 20 or 30 years). What people are willing to pay bottom line will set the prices. Different poolhalls charge different rates per hour(some poolrooms could be free and I wouldn't shoot there)..different Cuemakers prices also vary(and some cues could be free and...well you know).

I guess I'm the problem. Over the years as my knowlege of the game and information on cues and cuemaking increased. I've become more scutinizing and demanding. What I'd would have bought 10 years ago or what I needed then was different than what I want and need now.

Plus I veiw cuemakers differently now then I did 20 years ago. "My" definition of a "custom" cuemaker vs a production I guess is different that the rest of the world.

If a stick is built prior to knowing who is going to buy it and no specific or unique modifications are added it is a production cue ie (Availible cues). If only asthetics are changed for a particular customer it is still a production cue. Like going on a car lot and getting Mustang in blue or red or automatic or standard these minor changes still make it a mustang. That is still a production car. So changing minor things on a cue IN MY OPINION still make them production cues.

There's nothing wrong with that (just semantics I guess) and at least you know the standard of the product your buying. Take Mr. Dayton I admire his work, great cuemaker deserves what he charges and you know your not getting a pinto or a gremlin but a much better cue.

If I overly nitpick any of the cuemakers/craftsman I apoligize up front.
I'm just getting more picky and and demanding in my old age of 45. I recognize the competion, recession, modernization effects both the customer and the cuemaker and also his prices.

You're not "the problem," sir. You are a discriminating buyer. Your breakdown of the custom/production aspects of cues is spot on, IMHO.

If buyers don't want to scrutinize what they are purchasing, and determining whether or not the item suits their needs, whatever they be, that's their choice.

Part of the scrutiny and decisional process leading to an eventual purchase might well be the cost of the item. Whether the price of that item is a good value or not is often in the eyes of the beholder.

Thank you for the post.

Flex

 

[Hidy Ho]

Sure would like to see some of your work. I took a look your website, but there's just a homepage, nothing but a "More Information Coming Soon!" and some other stuff.

Do you have any pictures you could post here?

Thanks!

Flex

Over 2000 posts and you haven't' seen Tony's work? Just click on his name to go to his profile, look for threads started by him in Cue Gallery and you will see plenty of his work.

Not sure if below link will work or not

http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=1908623

Also, try http://www.new2youqs.com/cues/zinzola.html

 

[Flex]

Over 2000 posts and you haven't' seen Tony's work? Just click on his name to go to his profile, look for threads started by him in Cue Gallery and you will see plenty of his work.

Not sure if below link will work or not

http://forums.azbilliards.com/search.php?searchid=1908623

Also, try http://www.new2youqs.com/cues/zinzola.html

Thanks, Jazz!

I hadn't thought of looking in the Cue Gallery :embarrassed2:

Beautiful cues!

That being said, there's nothing quite like someone's own website to showcase their work.

Looking forward to seeing it on his website

Flex

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

No business recoup's its startup cost overnite and most are in it for the long haul. The mark up of your product determines how fast you make that up cost and operate in the black(may take 20 or 30 years). What people are willing to pay bottom line will set the prices. Different poolhalls charge different rates per hour(some poolrooms could be free and I wouldn't shoot there)..different Cuemakers prices also vary(and some cues could be free and...well you know).

I guess I'm the problem. Over the years as my knowlege of the game and information on cues and cuemaking increased. I've become more scutinizing and demanding. What I'd would have bought 10 years ago or what I needed then was different than what I want and need now.

Plus I veiw cuemakers differently now then I did 20 years ago. "My" definition of a "custom" cuemaker vs a production I guess is different that the rest of the world.

If a stick is built prior to knowing who is going to buy it and no specific or unique modifications are added it is a production cue ie (Availible cues). If only asthetics are changed for a particular customer it is still a production cue. Like going on a car lot and getting Mustang in blue or red or automatic or standard these minor changes still make it a mustang. That is still a production car. So changing minor things on a cue IN MY OPINION still make them production cues.

There's nothing wrong with that (just semantics I guess) and at least you know the standard of the product your buying. Take Mr. Dayton I admire his work, great cuemaker deserves what he charges and you know your not getting a pinto or a gremlin but a much better cue.

If I overly nitpick any of the cuemakers/craftsman I apoligize up front.
I'm just getting more picky and and demanding in my old age of 45. I recognize the competion, recession, modernization effects both the customer and the cuemaker and also his prices.

Thank you for the input. At 45 youre just a youngn :smile:

I dont think you or your outlook is a problem. Over the past years cuemakers have come to be more demanding and scrutinizing also. Were being charged more for our wood and supplies so our natural reaction is to expect more from the suppliers. Some would have you believe we raise our prices only because the market will support it. That may be true in some cases but in many cases cuemakers are charging more because the bar has been raised to build a better cue.

Theres a huge difference in being discriminating or being cheap though. Being discriminating is recognizing quality for the dollar spent. Being cheap is not always being smart.

"custom" cuemaker vs a production

Is a subject that will be discussed forever I guess. Not sure well ever reach a consensus on that one.

 

[Hidy Ho]

Looking forward to seeing it on his website Flex

You're welcome.

Why do you care about his website? It doesn't seem like you'll be one of his potential customer.

 

[Tony Zinzola]

I was going to tell you to check the cue gallery, but Jazz beat me to it. As for my website, I think the guy doing it for me is a cue builder in his spare time. He seems to think the page needs to age after every word. He keeps telling me it will be done this week. Soon I think.

 

[Flex]

You're welcome.

Why do you care about his website? It doesn't seem like you'll be one of his potential customer.

Who knows if I'll become a customer of his? I just might.

Also, I have friends, and they buy high grade custom cues: Szambotis, Hercek, Joey Gold - Cogs, and so on. If I find a website with something I know they are looking for, I'll let them know.

Also, judging from the pictures of Tony Zinola's cues in the cue gallery, those multi-veneered beauties might just be what some friends are looking for.

Some of these friends/acquaintances easily have a couple hundred thousand invested in high grade cues. One of them has so many, I don't have a clue what they're all worth.

Thanks for your question.

Flex

 

[Sheldon]

tap tap tap
I wish I can charge Tad price but I can't.

<sarcasm> Hey, I have an idea, lets all see if we can bring the big guys down by badmouthing them, and letting everyone know that no cue should cost more than $500.... </sarcasm>