The difference of a cue butt in play

E

eldowan

Registered
What, if any, difference does a butt introduce into the performance characteristcs of play? I understand that a shaft can make a world of difference, but I don't see much difference a butt makes.


I guess it does, b/c the P3 coming out from Predator, but is it really all that much?
 
I do not know much about predator...

I do not know much about predator... and I agree with starburst
starburst said:
I reckon it's just another marketing strategy.
Click to expand...

However, for a custom cuemaker both the butt and shaft are equally important, as are the tip, ferrule, joint, etc...it all comes into play with how the cue will "feel" when the tip strikes the cueball.

A cue in my opinion should resonate, and cuemakers refer to this as the tone...and select very carefully the wood they use in the cue. Also balance of the cue as well is determined by the butt and shaft...when Predator and other factory cues are sold they are made and you can get "any" weight by simply adding a bolt to the back of the cue....that will change the way that cue will feel and play as well.
 
paulybatz said:
I do not know much about predator... and I agree with starburst

However, for a custom cuemaker both the butt and shaft are equally important, as are the tip, ferrule, joint, etc...it all comes into play with how the cue will "feel" when the tip strikes the cueball.

A cue in my opinion should resonate, and cuemakers refer to this as the tone...and select very carefully the wood they use in the cue. Also balance of the cue as well is determined by the butt and shaft...when Predator and other factory cues are sold they are made and you can get "any" weight by simply adding a bolt to the back of the cue....that will change the way that cue will feel and play as well.
Click to expand...

Ditto on Predator. I think the tip has the MOST to do with a cue's playability, and next the shaft and ferrule. Work your way back. The joint makes a big difference, not only the pin but the collar and the wood to wood or metal or phenolic contact. The butt is actually quite complicated. Have you ever played with a cue with a "BUZZ" ? You don't want to. I think Gus Szamboti started using a phenolic ring at the "A" joint. You can't see it but it's right where the forend meets the handle. That's usually right under the front of the wrap on wrapped cues. Some people swear by a full spliced cue, where the cue is assembled from large prongs. Most sneakies are constructed in this manner, and I have to admit that they hit as well as any on the average.

If a heavy wood like ebony or cocobolo is used for the front, then the cue lends itself to a forward balance, and the rearward materials have to be chosen correctly to balance it and achieve the desired weight. The weight can be regulated with a weight bolt and by changing the weight of the pin but not from 17-21 ounces. That has to be done with a judicious choice of woods. They say that a Purpleheart or Bacote handle makes a great hitting cue. Can't prove it by me but I'd like to try a few :D or more. I like a slender butt, about .0025", balanced at 19" from the rear and 59" please, at 19.5 oz. All these factors are very important to me. We all like something different although I think I could adjust to any quality cue...Tom
 
construction and balance are important in the butt of a cue. the shaft and tip are more important IMO. i wouldnt buy a pred cue if you gave me the $$$. however i played with a 314 for 10 years until this year. always on a custom. you get what you pay for in this world
 
Regarding the relevance of the "BUTT" involvement in the playability equation....

In my opinion.....

As most of you know by now, I'm all about the playability and hit of every cue I make and that is one area I'm very confident about expressing my thoughts on... so here it goes !

Most of us agree that the shaft is the main factor that comprises the hit and playability of a cue due to its taper, ferrule and tip... however the butt in my opinion acts as the "feedback" aspect of the hit and gives you a little more detail in the overall feel of the executed shot....

So a solid constructed butt is going to give you a more natural and solid feedback than one that has a bunch of bells and whistles in it which disturbs the natural flow of energy through the wood's grain and every little cut that contains glue and different material automatically adds harmonic variances to the equation which in turn adds to the noise of the hit...

How well the butt is constructed with bells and whistles intact are what defines the harmonics and the quality of the cuemaker that builds it !

In all actuality the shaft comprises about 87.3 % off the overall hit and playability and the remaining 12.7% is divided between the joint collar, joint pin and the forearm of the butt...

So with that being said.... we can all agree that if you put a predator 314 shaft on ANY custom or production cue that cue now plays like a 314 and does NOT play anywhere near its original intended configuration....

I hope I'm expressing my thoughts accurately and not confusing anyone....

In short I'm trying to say that the butt's main job is comfort, counter balance and the transfer of feedback after inital contact with the cueball.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I just said becasue it can be a very interesting and informative subject to discuss, and I would like to keep this very civil and tasteful for the benefit of EVERYONE, so no insults please !


- Eddie Wheat
 
In all actuality the shaft comprises about 87.3 % off the overall hit and playability and the remaining 12.7% is divided between the joint collar, joint pin and the forearm of the butt...
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Eddie could you be a little more specific?:D


by the way,i am one of the 12.7% that thinks the butt makes a difference.
 
On a production cue I prefer the predator shaft most of the time most productin cues i dont like the soft maple wood shafts.

On a custom cue most cuemakers can pick out great shafts and I feel the original custom shafts usualy play as good or better then the predator shafts.

As for the p2 and p3 I think alot of engeneering went into the cues and it paid off you dont need top of the line wood to make a consistant hitting cue with great feel. Since its pie wedge cut and spliced radial you create your own backbone 360 deg consistant flex or ridgedness no need to look for the sweet spot anymore.

It takes awhile to get used to the tighter patterns then with an old standard shafted cue. You honestly takes 6 months to know if you can play great with it. I find most adapt withen 2-3 months per muscle memory and many hours of practice.

Craig
 
masonh said:
Eddie could you be a little more specific?:D


by the way,i am one of the 12.7% that thinks the butt makes a difference.
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Yes !

Once again, the Butt of the cue consists of approx. 12.7% of the hit and the majority of the feedback percentage...

So depending on what exactly you are looking for in the butt's validity in this equation is subjective to feedback and not to playablilty and/or hit...


- Eddie Wheat
 
WheatCues said:
In my opinion.....

As most of you know by now, I'm all about the playability and hit of every cue I make and that is one area I'm very confident about expressing my thoughts on... so here it goes !

Most of us agree that the shaft is the main factor that comprises the hit and playability of a cue due to its taper, ferrule and tip... however the butt in my opinion acts as the "feedback" aspect of the hit and gives you a little more detail in the overall feel of the executed shot....

So a solid constructed butt is going to give you a more natural and solid feedback than one that has a bunch of bells and whistles in it which disturbs the natural flow of energy through the wood's grain and every little cut that contains glue and different material automatically adds harmonic variances to the equation which in turn adds to the noise of the hit...

How well the butt is constructed with bells and whistles intact are what defines the harmonics and the quality of the cuemaker that builds it !

In all actuality the shaft comprises about 87.3 % off the overall hit and playability and the remaining 12.7% is divided between the joint collar, joint pin and the forearm of the butt...

So with that being said.... we can all agree that if you put a predator 314 shaft on ANY custom or production cue that cue now plays like a 314 and does NOT play anywhere near its original intended configuration....

I hope I'm expressing my thoughts accurately and not confusing anyone....

In short I'm trying to say that the butt's main job is comfort, counter balance and the transfer of feedback after inital contact with the cueball.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I just said becasue it can be a very interesting and informative subject to discuss, and I would like to keep this very civil and tasteful for the benefit of EVERYONE, so no insults please !


- Eddie Wheat
Click to expand...

That is a very informative post, and the kind of post I was hoping for.

I had my suspicions that walked closely to what you have stated.

Thanks again,
 
WheatCues said:
In my opinion.....

As most of you know by now, I'm all about the playability and hit of every cue I make and that is one area I'm very confident about expressing my thoughts on... so here it goes !

Most of us agree that the shaft is the main factor that comprises the hit and playability of a cue due to its taper, ferrule and tip... however the butt in my opinion acts as the "feedback" aspect of the hit and gives you a little more detail in the overall feel of the executed shot....

So a solid constructed butt is going to give you a more natural and solid feedback than one that has a bunch of bells and whistles in it which disturbs the natural flow of energy through the wood's grain and every little cut that contains glue and different material automatically adds harmonic variances to the equation which in turn adds to the noise of the hit...

How well the butt is constructed with bells and whistles intact are what defines the harmonics and the quality of the cuemaker that builds it !

In all actuality the shaft comprises about 87.3 % off the overall hit and playability and the remaining 12.7% is divided between the joint collar, joint pin and the forearm of the butt...

So with that being said.... we can all agree that if you put a predator 314 shaft on ANY custom or production cue that cue now plays like a 314 and does NOT play anywhere near its original intended configuration....

I hope I'm expressing my thoughts accurately and not confusing anyone....

In short I'm trying to say that the butt's main job is comfort, counter balance and the transfer of feedback after inital contact with the cueball.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what I just said becasue it can be a very interesting and informative subject to discuss, and I would like to keep this very civil and tasteful for the benefit of EVERYONE, so no insults please !


- Eddie Wheat
Click to expand...

Interesting post...It's obvious you have done an extensive amount of R&D to come up with such an accurate break down percentage wise.....Could you please take it a step further and please gives us the break down of the 12.7 % of the butt..the percentage for the joint pin only, the collars, etc...The curiosity is killing me....
 
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While I feel that the shaft, tip, and ferrule are all major contributors to how a cue 'feels' when it is played...I feel too often that the butt is considered an afterthought.

I honestly believe that the woods used in the butt of a cue can determine not only how a perceived 'hit' feels, but can determine if a cue is going to play stiffer, or not so much.

While I am not a cuemaker, I was very into custom made acoustic guitars, and the tonal qualities that each exotic wood used possessed. Rosewoods are known for their ringing, bell-like tonal characteristics...which makes sense that they would be a terrific cue wood, as they translate feedback very well, and quite clearly.

Ebonies, being a denser wood, can often lead to a cue with a much stiffer 'feel' overall...especially when coupled with a top quality shaftwood with a stiffer taper.

Here's a simple comparison. I had two cues, constructed the same way, with the same quality shaftwood, from the same maker. Same tips and tapers. One was a bocote/BEM full splice, the other a Bois de Rose (Madagascar rosewood subspecies)/BEM full splice. When compared side by side...the bocote cue while still a stiff feeling cue, had a slightly softer, more muted feedback that that of the BdR cue...which, while again stiff feeling, has a crisper, more bell-like feedback....this baby talks!!! :joyful: LoL!

So, while I agree that a butt is designed for not only balance and comfort...it plays a slightly larger role than it might otherwise be attributed.

As a caveat to the above....I am specifically referencing those cues that have not been cored. While I believe that coring can be a beneficial way to construct cues, for a multitude of reasons....in some cases, it can change the wood being cored's initial characteristics into a totally different animal altogether.

Lisa
 
I honestly believe that the woods used in the butt of a cue can determine not only how a perceived 'hit' feels, but can determine if a cue is going to play stiffer, or not so much.
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yes..................
 
Eddie, I think we're thinking much the same thing....just maybe not eye to eye on the percentages.

MY thoughts are that the percentages would be more along the lines of 65/35 (shaft/butt) regarding "hit and playability". Everyone knows that the shaft is very, very important, but I don't think the butt's role is that small. Despite being a counterbalance and transferring the initial feedback, there is a quite a bit more going on imo that just in the forearm and joint area of the butt. My thoughts are that for a cue to feel "right" for the player, it has to have the correct resonance and sound all the way back through your grip hand, the entire length of the cue (what feels and sounds right for a given player).

I also use to agree that a bunch of inlays and such would "take away from the hit" but after several years of trying out literally hundreds of cues, I'm not so sure now.....sure it can, but generally 1/8" deep inlays just aren't going to have much affect on the overall hit. Now I'm more of a believer that hit is more dependent on how everything comes together [rock-solid central core throughout the butt construction....little to no "slop"....tight splice (if present)....nice snug joint connection....tight rings....balance....quality materials (wood, adhesives, etc.)....and naturally the shaft, ferrule, and tip].

Have hit with some of the most fancy cues you could believe that played absolutely lights-out....and then turned around and tried the same superb shaft on another butt with somewhat dissimilar results. IMO cues perform best when the shaft is specifically made to match up to the butt. Never really bought into the screw-on Predator concept. Even gave them a try, and although the science and logic makes perfect sense enough, they just never felt right to me.

Just a few rambling thougths. Sure some others might agree and disagree with these points. :smile-square:
 
cueaddicts said:
Eddie, I think we're thinking much the same thing....just maybe not eye to eye on the percentages.

MY thoughts are that the percentages would be more along the lines of 65/35 (shaft/butt) regarding "hit and playability". Everyone knows that the shaft is very, very important, but I don't think the butt's role is that small. Despite being a counterbalance and transferring the initial feedback, there is a quite a bit more going on imo that just in the forearm and joint area of the butt. My thoughts are that for a cue to feel "right" for the player, it has to have the correct resonance and sound all the way back through your grip hand, the entire length of the cue (what feels and sounds right for a given player).

I also use to agree that a bunch of inlays and such would "take away from the hit" but after several years of trying out literally hundreds of cues, I'm not so sure now.....sure it can, but generally 1/8" deep inlays just aren't going to have much affect on the overall hit. Now I'm more of a believer that hit is more dependent on how everything comes together [rock-solid central core throughout the butt construction....little to no "slop"....tight splice (if present)....nice snug joint connection....tight rings....balance....quality materials (wood, adhesives, etc.)....and naturally the shaft, ferrule, and tip].

Have hit with some of the most fancy cues you could believe that played absolutely lights-out....and then turned around and tried the same superb shaft on another butt with somewhat dissimilar results. IMO cues perform best when the shaft is specifically made to match up to the butt. Never really bought into the screw-on Predator concept. Even gave them a try, and although the science and logic makes perfect sense enough, they just never felt right to me.

Just a few rambling thougths. Sure some others might agree and disagree with these points. :smile-square:
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Tap, tap, tap! Eloquently said, Sean! You hit the nail on the head better than I. When you mention feeling the resonance all the way through the entire length of a cue...perfect!

When a player becomes so attuned to the various resonant tones of a cue, they will know immediately upon striking the CB if they are in stroke, and have played for the proper speed. The extent to which that message is relayed to you, via the cue's butt, is dependent on the tonal qualities of the wood combinations used...including that of the handle, in the case of a short splice.

Lisa <===== loves these kinds of threads!!! :love:
 
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snowmon34 said:
Interesting post...It's obvious you have done an extensive amount of R&D to come up with such an accurate break down percentage wise.....Could you please take it a step further and please gives us the break down of the 12.7 % of the butt..the percentage for the joint pin only, the collars, etc...The curiosity is killing me....
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I personally cannot take credit for the analysis and breakdown of the percentages...

Buy I will attest to them only becasue I have gotten that involved in the various components differentials enough to distinguish the noticable variances with each material used...

As far as breaking down the last 12.7 % goes... all I can say is the joint pin is the majority of that 12.7% and then the joint collar on the butt and then the butt's forearm composition absorbs the remaining few percent "no pun intended !"

But seriously. the remaining few percent breakdown is like handing someone a cue and asking them if they can physically feel a 1/4oz difference in the weight of a cue !!!

I hate to say this... but the original construction of a cue in the early days " fullsplice house cues" were more than sufficient to get the job done of shooting a ball into another ball at a pocket using a leather tip....and all of our world records were set by famous players using solid 1-piece shafts and basic butts.....

All this over engineered hoopla has not contributed to any breaking of those records to this date and we have much stronger players now-a-days !

So my theory is this: get a well constructed cue that fits your physique properly and is geared up for your unique style of play, and as long as you have good mechanics you will get as good as your head will let you !!!





-Eddie Wheat
 
cueaddicts said:
Eddie, I think we're thinking much the same thing....just maybe not eye to eye on the percentages.

MY thoughts are that the percentages would be more along the lines of 65/35 (shaft/butt) regarding "hit and playability". Everyone knows that the shaft is very, very important, but I don't think the butt's role is that small. Despite being a counterbalance and transferring the initial feedback, there is a quite a bit more going on imo that just in the forearm and joint area of the butt. My thoughts are that for a cue to feel "right" for the player, it has to have the correct resonance and sound all the way back through your grip hand, the entire length of the cue (what feels and sounds right for a given player).

I also use to agree that a bunch of inlays and such would "take away from the hit" but after several years of trying out literally hundreds of cues, I'm not so sure now.....sure it can, but generally 1/8" deep inlays just aren't going to have much affect on the overall hit. Now I'm more of a believer that hit is more dependent on how everything comes together [rock-solid central core throughout the butt construction....little to no "slop"....tight splice (if present)....nice snug joint connection....tight rings....balance....quality materials (wood, adhesives, etc.)....and naturally the shaft, ferrule, and tip].

Have hit with some of the most fancy cues you could believe that played absolutely lights-out....and then turned around and tried the same superb shaft on another butt with somewhat dissimilar results. IMO cues perform best when the shaft is specifically made to match up to the butt. Never really bought into the screw-on Predator concept. Even gave them a try, and although the science and logic makes perfect sense enough, they just never felt right to me.

Just a few rambling thougths. Sure some others might agree and disagree with these points. :smile-square:
Click to expand...


You obviously have some great insight as well regarding this topic...

I do agree about the depth of the inlays playing a contributing percentage to the feedback of the cue !

I do want to stress that "feedback" is not to misunderstood as the initial "hit" or "playability" aspect of the equation....

As as harmonics play a major role in the butts contruction and thats where the foundation of the feedback lies....

Lisa was agreeing with the resonance aspect of it in an earlier post and that attests to the logic behind it....

I know there's alot of details we can get into about custom built cues and thier construction variances but keep in mind that the energy travels only so far from it's initial impact and becasue we have a conical instrument creating the enertia, it dissapates quite rapidly so by the time it does reach our hand all that's left is the remanants of the impact which is "feedback" to tell us we hit something..

And yes depending on how many cuts and pieces that have been modified or introduced to the woods original property to disrupt it's natural grain pattern and energy flow will determine the harmonics level as well as the low impact vibrations that accompany it .... so needless to say, the less cuts the better !!!

I didn't mean to get carried away... but of course that's to be expected with me by now !



- Eddie Wheat
 
WheatCues said:
In all actuality the shaft comprises about 87.3 % off the overall hit and playability and the remaining 12.7% is divided between the joint collar, joint pin and the forearm of the butt...
Click to expand...

Eddie,

I noticed the 12.7% you mentioned does not include the handle wood...I'm wondering why handle wood is not figured into overall hit and playability...don't you agree if all components of the cue are as close to equal as possible wouldn't a straight grain maple handle hit different than lets say purpleheart, bacote, or a laminated handle?
 
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don't you agree if all components of the cue are as close to equal as possible wouldn't a straight grain maple handle hit different than lets say purpleheart, bacote, or a laminated handle?
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most definitely.
 
You can break it down to any number you want. If it's not 100% in total for the whole cue, I'm not playing with it. There is no compromise.
 
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