The Eyes Have It

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Understood. But I think the biggest reason for my consistently hitting the CB higher than intended (and it's ALWAYS higher than I am aiming at) is because I drop my elbow. Drop the back of the cue, and the tip, on the other side of the bridge, necessarily swings up a bit.

But when I try to stroke directly THROUGH the impact point, I tend to get more draw. When I try a draw shot without dropping my elbow, I notice that even though the contact point is not necessarily really low, I tend to miscue. Using my "safe", smooth, relaxed stroke, I can draw the CB three or four diamonds on a shot where the OB is 3.5 diamonds away (9ft table). It comes back, but I never get that "delayed" spin, where the CB is seemingly sitting still for a fraction of a second before it accelerates backward like a Top Fuel dragster leaving on a green light. I on'y get a smooth backward motion.

I am only starting to get that reaction on follow shots.

It's a process. HAMB and experiment!
Dropping your elbow is OK as long as it's after you contact the CB. If it's before then it's most likely because your grip hand is not placed correctly. I noted that in the thread with all the pics awhile back.
 
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dquarasr

Registered
Dropping your elbow is OK as long as it's after you contact the CB. If it's before then it's most likely because your grip hand is not placed correctly. I noted that in the thread with all the pics awhile back.
So does that mean I need to move my grip hand farther from my bridge hand (back on the cue)?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Here’s something I don’t understand. This was the result of a miscue You can see the chalk mark on n the CB. It doesn’t look too low to me. But look at the tip to see where it contacted the CB. What do you think is causing miscue here?
View attachment 592741
You hit below the miscue limit. It's not that black circle on the Rempe ball; it's halfway from center to edge of the ball (above your chalk mark). Here's a pic of the other side of the Rempe ball with the miscue limit shown in blue (sorry, I don't have one of the side of the ball you show, but you can see it's above where you hit).

pj
chgo

Rempe CB 2.jpg
 

dquarasr

Registered
You hit below the miscue limit. It's not that black circle on the Rempe ball; it's halfway from center to edge of the ball (above your chalk mark). Here's a pic of the other side of the Rempe ball with the miscue limit shown in blue (sorry, I don't have one of the side of the ball you show, but you can see it's above where you hit).

pj
chgo

View attachment 592754
Then why does the other side of the ball show the outer limits way outside the blue circle?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Then why does the other side of the ball show the outer limits way outside the blue circle?
Got me - but they're not the miscue limit. It's common knowledge that it's halfway from center to edge of the ball.

P.S. I added the blue circle on my pic - it's not blue on the actual ball.

P.P.S. If you use a Centennial object ball as your cue ball, the miscue limit is pretty close to the edge of the stripe or the circle around the number.

P.P.P.S. Halfway from center to edge of the ball means "visually, as viewed from the perspective of the shooter" (1/3 the distance along the surface at the ball's equator).

pj
chgo
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Understood. But I think the biggest reason for my consistently hitting the CB higher than intended (and it's ALWAYS higher than I am aiming at) is because I drop my elbow. Drop the back of the cue, and the tip, on the other side of the bridge, necessarily swings up a bit.

But when I try to stroke directly THROUGH the impact point, I tend to get more draw. When I try a draw shot without dropping my elbow, I notice that even though the contact point is not necessarily really low, I tend to miscue. Using my "safe", smooth, relaxed stroke, I can draw the CB three or four diamonds on a shot where the OB is 3.5 diamonds away (9ft table). It comes back, but I never get that "delayed" spin, where the CB is seemingly sitting still for a fraction of a second before it accelerates backward like a Top Fuel dragster leaving on a green light. I on'y get a smooth backward motion.

I am only starting to get that reaction on follow shots.

It's a process. HAMB and experiment!
Don't just think about tip placement. You must also consider angle of attack. I don't like to drop my elbow on draw shots. I'm referring to dropping your elbow before impact, not after. Miscues are often caused by a sudden change in angle of attack just at the point of impact. It's not necessarily a result of how low the ball was struck. You have to keep the same angle that you started with or you are asking for trouble. If you don't think the angle is right, then change it at address, not during your stroke, and if an elbow drop is causing you to change your angle of attack, then don't drop your elbow.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So does that mean I need to move my grip hand farther from my bridge hand (back on the cue)?

Note pic #2 which you describe as stroke prior to impact. Your grip hand and arm angle in that pic is how it should be when your tip contacts the CB. Your tip is still 2-3 inches away from the CB. Your elbow is probably dropping before you strike the CB.

As far as the tip goes, it's a mess IMO. I understand about the spot up top where you miscued but the rest of the tip has poor coverage also. Maybe someone could post a closeup of a well groomed and chalked tip. You'll see a big difference immediately.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dropping your elbow is OK as long as it's after you contact the CB
This is true if the elbow drop brings the cue plane below the bridge height.
Many snooker players start with a steeper cue plane and the elbow drop takes them through the ball on a plane that isn’t teetered upwards as a result.
The cue hand drives down and through keeping the cue in a single plane before, during and after contact.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dquarasr
Read your post and read through many of the other post. I didn't see any mention of what follows so I'll mention it here.

Here is where it gets interesting.
We all have a parallax error in our vision {some lucky folks don't}. When looking at an object some distance away each eye sees a different picture. It's not until each one of these pictures is sent to the brain and the brain turns each picture into one picture.

When you look at a contact point on an OB your dominant eye will see the contact point first and the other eye will follow.

Standing behind a long distance shot on the shot line slowly turn your head from side to side while keeping your eyes on the shot line. No big deal now, you feel as though your on the shot line.

Get down on the shot as though your going to shoot the OB in the pocket. While down on the shot slooowly turn your head from side to side {this movement may only be a 1/2" to a full 1"} while keeping your eyes on the shot line. You will notice that there is only one head position that tells you that you are dead straight in on the shot. You have now corrected for the parallax error in your vision. After all we are looking at a pin point on an OB.

You'll have to remember this head position because you will want to use this head position while in the standing position to line up a shot.

If you can, sent up a video device behind the pocket showing the pocket, the OB, the cue ball and your head. get down on the shot as you normally do and record the video. Pay attention where your eyes and head position is, shoot the shot. Now do another recording using the system above and notice your eyes and head position. Are the videos showing the same picture?

Give it a try.

John
 
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
..... I put more pressure on myself. One of my pool buddies (he's up to a 7 in APA, shooting really well) keeps telling me I'm playing pretty well, but silly me, I compare it to my expectations and I'm well shy of them. I need to tell the little voice in my head to STFU!

Time to reset expectations and just enjoy the damned game. :)

....

There's one thing about us pool players that seems to be a common thread... When it comes to assessing our skills, we have a tendency to overestimate our abilities and underestimate the occurrence of luck or coincidence.

I have a buddy who broke and ran 6 racks of 8ball against me a few weeks ago on a diamond barbox. And I am not saying he was lucky, though a certain amount of luck does have to occur in order to run multiple racks back to back.
But he is an excellent player, and he believes like I believe, that we often make our own luck by paying attention/being observant.

Anyway, in the 7th rack he missed a cut shot into the side pocket. Another player who was watching said he was playing like a pro. My buddy said something like, "a pro would never miss that shot". I told him if he'd quit his job and play pool 30 or 40 hours per week he'd probably never miss that shot either.

In order to put these things into proper perspective, we need an honest appraisal or assessment of our game. Expectations should not be set unrealistically high. For one thing, it makes you try harder, and this is a game where you often play your best by NOT trying so hard.
 
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
How you verify that you were hitting the cue ball in the correct spot??? Did you use a Rempe ball or a stripe ball to see the chalk mark??? When shooting a rifle, the first thing to do is sight it in...You may want to try shooting some straight in shots then examine the cue ball.

You can use test ball, either the 6, 8, or 9 ball. Align the ball so that the circle on the number 6 or 9 is where you want to strike it. With the 8 you can pick the smaller circle (top portion) or larger circle (bottom portion) of the number 8.

The best way to do it is to place another ball a foot or so away, lined up for a straight in shot, and align your test ball so that your impact point (the circle portion of the number 6, 8, or 9) is set for a center ball hit that will produce a stop shot. This keeps the ball from rolling across the table and ensures that you can still see the fresh chalk mark on it.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is true if the elbow drop brings the cue plane below the bridge height.
Many snooker players start with a steeper cue plane and the elbow drop takes them through the ball on a plane that isn’t teetered upwards as a result.
The cue hand drives down and through keeping the cue in a single plane before, during and after contact.
I'm all in when it comes to the elbow drop. I think it's a very valuable tool. But like you wrote here, there is a technique involved. Doing it arbitrarily or randomly without a particular purpose can get a player in trouble.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dropping your elbow is OK as long as it's after you contact the CB. If it's before then it's most likely because your grip hand is not placed correctly. I noted that in the thread with all the pics awhile back.
A lot of people say that but it's not entirely true. If you truly drop your elbow after contact, then it's almost like a second stroke. Most players will begin the elbow drop just at or prior to contact, and anyone seeing it with the naked eye will say it occurred after contact. But if done with a particular purpose, dropping the elbow before contact can be a useful tool. I don't particularly like to do it for draw shots, but some players do.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A lot of people say that but it's not entirely true. If you truly drop your elbow after contact, then it's almost like a second stroke. Most players will begin the elbow drop just at or prior to contact, and anyone seeing it with the naked eye will say it occurred after contact. But if done with a particular purpose, dropping the elbow before contact can be a useful tool. I don't particularly like to do it for draw shots, but some players do.
The whole stroke needs to be considered in context.
Most ball contact sports have gravitated to a realization that the longer the striking surface is on the desired impact plane the better the chance of pure contact.
A pendulum stroke must rely on an exact positioning of the bottom of the arc in relationship to ball positioning, forced downward cue plane due to rails, other balls, contact height needs and anything that alters the position of the bottom of the arc, like vertical arm placement.
Extending how long the cue and tip stay on the contact plane makes sense.
 
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chefjeff

Nazis are back.
Silver Member
I've tried this. A couple of weeks ago I was pocketing pretty well doing what you suggest. Then it stopped working. Dunno why.

Then your problem is not having a way to know why or what exactly caused your miss.


Jeff Livingston
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not the best picture taker. Lepro tip with Master chalk. I use a Willard scuffer when needed.
 

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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Understood. But I think the biggest reason for my consistently hitting the CB higher than intended (and it's ALWAYS higher than I am aiming at) is because I drop my elbow. Drop the back of the cue, and the tip, on the other side of the bridge, necessarily swings up a bit.

But when I try to stroke directly THROUGH the impact point, I tend to get more draw. When I try a draw shot without dropping my elbow, I notice that even though the contact point is not necessarily really low, I tend to miscue. Using my "safe", smooth, relaxed stroke, I can draw the CB three or four diamonds on a shot where the OB is 3.5 diamonds away (9ft table). It comes back, but I never get that "delayed" spin, where the CB is seemingly sitting still for a fraction of a second before it accelerates backward like a Top Fuel dragster leaving on a green light. I on'y get a smooth backward motion.

I am only starting to get that reaction on follow shots.

It's a process. HAMB and experiment!
Thinking about technique instead of focusing on achieving a result is only for practice sessions.
If getting draw is the objective, turn that outcome over to the subconscious and avoid conscious intervention.
If the mind feels the elbow drop is right it should understand driving down and through to maintain a draw plane.
As Brian noted everyone has a preparatory phase in which the whole of your being is readying to produce a result.
Where every body part from eyes to feet to hands and the extended self of the cue, are located is determined by what the body decides based on what it needs.
It’s a marshaling of resources, not a preprogrammed list from a control obsessed conscious mind.
Your comment “ When I try a draw shot without dropping my elbow, I notice that even though the contact point is not necessarily really low, I tend to miscue.” is a description of what happens when the conscious and not the subconscious is driving the bus.
 
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