The Germans are Coming!!!!

Renegade

Renegade

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With the recent 1-2 finish of Germany (Engert and Ortmann) in the recent World Pool Masters, is it correct to say that currently they are the best in Europe, if not the world? Engert's string of victories certainly says so. And with Souquet and Hohmann in the mix, I'd say Germany is the dominant country in pool today. What would the ranking per country be?

1. Germany?
2. Philipppines or Taiwan?
3. US?
 
Well....

being German and knowing all of the mentioned players I must say its nice to read your post....but I don't think we are the strongest nation in pool. We have a lot of really good players (and more to come, watch out for Nico Ottermann at the Junior World Championships) but the strongest nation still are the Philipinos.
 
i210mfu said:
being German and knowing all of the mentioned players I must say its nice to read your post....but I don't think we are the strongest nation in pool. We have a lot of really good players (and more to come, watch out for Nico Ottermann at the Junior World Championships) but the strongest nation still are the Philipinos.
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being a filipino ...i must say it's nice to read your post, haha. i think engert is the hottest player today after having won icoc and wpm. in europe, i think you guys have a eurotour and if i remember it right, the reigning champs in team competition are the dutch. making the scope worldwide, i don't really mind if germany will be branded the most dominant in pool today. there can be many ways of looking at it; it depends on the basis. if we say that wpc is the most prestigious pool event and producer of the real world champion then taiwan and philippines must be ranked somewhere on the top. but then, we all know that this is not the sole yardstick. IMO, for a country to be considered a pool nation, it has to take more than a few prominent names. i don't know the pool scene in germany. i have more idea of the pool scene in taiwan and us. so i can't say germany is #1. maybe somebody can share about pool in germany.
 
LastTwo said:
1.Phillipines
2.Taiwan
3.USA
4.Germany

IMO
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taiwan???
pls name five world-class poolplayers from taiwan...

i think in the US, there is the highest number of players. in the last years the big tournaments have been dominated by US-players, Germans, and Phillipines.
 
steigweis said:
taiwan???
pls name five world-class poolplayers from taiwan...

i think in the US, there is the highest number of players. in the last years the big tournaments have been dominated by US-players, Germans, and Phillipines.
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fong pang chao, yang chin shun, wu chia ching (15 years old), hui kai hsia, chang pei wei....+ a lot more relatively unknown but are definitely at par with the other world class players (ex. kang pulverized hohman in 2004 wpc). overall, i think taiwan had the best performance in 2004 wpc over any other country.
 
I'll try ...

maybe somebody can share about pool in germany.[/QUOTE]

Pool in Germany is more like an amateur sport with a professional attitude. The biggest difference to the US pool scene is, that our players are very good all around playes (straight, 8 & 9 Ball). One pocket is a game hardly played here. The league is also organized a little different. Each state has various leagus running which have a regional aspect. Only the 1 and second teams of each league move on level upwards to advance to the next higher league until the reach the highest which would be the "all German Pool League" (like the NFL but a little lesser money LOL). The highest league itself is divided like in baseball in a major and a minor league which are called 1st and second "Bundsliga". The league matches are (example is my State of Hesse League which is the highest state league)

2 Matches of Straightpool to 125 Points
4 Matches of 9Ball race to 9
2 Matches of 8Ball race to 7

Each team has 4 or more members. This is the basic amateurs setup. Other than that there are various tournaments an of course the EUROTOUR which is an all european event.

Professional Play:
All the top German players need really good sponsors or some other form of steady income. Otherwise they could not survive. Gambling for them is very hard here since they won't find an acceptable match easy. That's why the have to go abroad and learn to gamble and play on a professional level. It usually takes them a while to get accustomed to pro tour (Look at Souquet and how long it took him to book a major in the US even though he's a 100 times european champion...). Even though that Hohman for instance has been given a lesson by some Taiwanese player..don't underestimate him. If he's accustomed to that new form of life (professional player) he will upset quite a lot professionals...

Hope this will give you all some impression on how the pool scene works here. Questions and remarks always welcome.

Markus
 
After six of the last eight in the WPC (counting Alex as a Fillipino, that is) were from either the Phillipines or Taiwan, the argument that the Phillipines and Taiwan have passed the US can easily be made, but, with due credit to the fine play of the Germans, Germany is a clear fourth among the nations of the world in pool.

Europe couldn't beat the US in the Mosconi Cup. Surely there's nobody out there that thinks they could win the Mosconi Cup back with a team consisting of Germans only! Let's not forget that the top point earner on Europe's 2003 Mosconi Cup team was the Finn, Mika Immonen.
 
Last edited:
Another European country deserving of some attention is the Netherlands, with Niels Feijen, Rico Diks, Alex Lely and Nick Van Den Berg leading the way. Still, the Dutch are not quite up to the level of the Germans.
 
Having lived in Germany for ten years and having been to Taiwan several times I can tell you that there are many, many world class players in both countries who have the ability to compete amongst the best in the world.

If there were a true World Tour and all the players with the ability had the opportunity to compete in all the events then the ranking list would certainly be speckled with international names.

There used to be a time when Johnny Archer, Strickland, or any of the top US players could go to a tournament in Europe and just rob it. The players over there were overwhelmed with the reputation of the Americans and quite frankly the game of the Americans. The Americans would come to the table with a different game, different safes, different push outs, different runouts that were hard for the Europeans to overcome. But now, with so many Europeans competing regularly in US and world events the European game is more on par with the US and the rest of the world in terms of all-around knowledge. They still lack intimate knowledge of games like banks and one-pocket but in nine-ball they definitely know all there is to know.

The league system there is a great farm system for producing world class players. I miss it and I wish we had something like that here. You know, that might be the next big league oppotunity in America.

Anyway, I predict that a World Tour Rank List would have several Germans, Dutch, Taiwanese, Filipino, and Americans in the top 10-20. Which country would dominate would vary from year to year depending on who is having a good year.

John
 
I think it's a tossup who the best pool playing nation in the world is...assuming were talking strictly 9ball, I think it's a toss-up between Germany, Phillipines, Taiwan, and the US. If you include 8 ball I think the Germans might just have the edge. Hohman, Souquet, and Ortmann all have won the European 8 ball championships.
 
sniper said:
I think it's a tossup who the best pool playing nation in the world is...assuming were talking strictly 9ball, I think it's a toss-up between Germany, Phillipines, Taiwan, and the US. If you include 8 ball I think the Germans might just have the edge. Hohman, Souquet, and Ortmann all have won the European 8 ball championships.
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Sorry, but I just don't see how one can possibly compare Germany to the US in nine ball. If a team of Europeans that included both Immonen and Chamat, who are two of the three best players in Europe (the other being Souquet) couldn't win the 2003 Mosconi Cup, how can one suggest that a team consisting of Germans only would be favored over an American team? As far as I'm concerned, the German team would be a serious longshot.

Still, Sniper, I'll keep an open mind here. Let's see what happens in the next Mosconi Cup. By the way, I do agree that German pool is on the rise and in very good shape.
 
The Mosconi Cup is a snapshot of pool talent. It is not even neccesarily representative of the best pool players at any given time. Participants are chosen for their performances and for their popularity. The most well known Europeans have all shown that they belong to the world elite through their performances.

I believe that to say that Germany could be a force is quite apt. Most of the German Bundesliga (National Class League Players) do not have the sponsorship to pursue pool full time. There are no tours that are as strong as the American regional tours to act as a springboard to the pros. For a long time, and possibly still, Ralf Souquet was known as Germany's only full-time professional pool player. If you were to take the German Bundesliga and teleport them to the United States then you would see a dramatic difference in the pool landscape and in the pro rankings.

Here there is a wide gap between so-called league players and serious tournament/action players. While the tournament/action players participate in the leagues it is primarily to make money and find more action. The amateur league players however just want their Tuesday fun, a state tournament, maybe a few other team events and possibly a trip to Vegas once a year. The action/tournament players want to play in all the tournaments they can get to and match up with anyone they can.

In Germany the league players are also tournament/action players. Only the very lowest level of local leagues have the so-called "fun" players who only care about pool on league day. For the league player in Germany a rise in skill means a rise in competition as they move up to divisions with better and better players. So while the US has way more players than Germany does, Germany has a better average skill level than the US does in my opinion.

If the US had a league system like Germany then it wouldn't be any contest with the number of players we have.

John
 
P.S. I just worked the APA Nationals for 10 days and the lack of knowledge about pool in general was appalling. Just about the only pro player that most of the APA players could name offhand was Allison Fisher and that was only because she had a booth across the aisle. I gave away small prizes to the crowd around our contests if they could answer pool trivia. Who is the current men's world champion? No idea. Who is number 1 on the UPA tour? No idea. What does the UPA stand for? No idea? Who is number 3 on the women's tour? No idea. Number 2? Number 1? A few people knew that is Allison.

So when we talk about the future of pool it is important to know that most of the players in America's largest league could care less about the professional side of the game, who the players are or even if there is pro pool.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
The Mosconi Cup is a snapshot of pool talent. It is not even neccesarily representative of the best pool players at any given time. Participants are chosen for their performances and for their popularity. The most well known Europeans have all shown that they belong to the world elite through their performances.

I believe that to say that Germany could be a force is quite apt. Most of the German Bundesliga (National Class League Players) do not have the sponsorship to pursue pool full time. There are no tours that are as strong as the American regional tours to act as a springboard to the pros. For a long time, and possibly still, Ralf Souquet was known as Germany's only full-time professional pool player. If you were to take the German Bundesliga and teleport them to the United States then you would see a dramatic difference in the pool landscape and in the pro rankings.

Here there is a wide gap between so-called league players and serious tournament/action players. While the tournament/action players participate in the leagues it is primarily to make money and find more action. The amateur league players however just want their Tuesday fun, a state tournament, maybe a few other team events and possibly a trip to Vegas once a year. The action/tournament players want to play in all the tournaments they can get to and match up with anyone they can.

In Germany the league players are also tournament/action players. Only the very lowest level of local leagues have the so-called "fun" players who only care about pool on league day. For the league player in Germany a rise in skill means a rise in competition as they move up to divisions with better and better players. So while the US has way more players than Germany does, Germany has a better average skill level than the US does in my opinion.

If the US had a league system like Germany then it wouldn't be any contest with the number of players we have.

John
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Nice post, John, and thanks for the education. Also, you may count me among those delighted to see the level of pool rising in Europe.
 
sjm said:
Sorry, but I just don't see how one can possibly compare Germany to the US in nine ball. If a team of Europeans that included both Immonen and Chamat, who are two of the three best players in Europe (the other being Souquet) couldn't win the 2003 Mosconi Cup, how can one suggest that a team consisting of Germans only would be favored over an American team? As far as I'm concerned, the German team would be a serious longshot.

Still, Sniper, I'll keep an open mind here. Let's see what happens in the next Mosconi Cup. By the way, I do agree that German pool is on the rise and in very good shape.
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sjm, I never said in my post that the Germans are better than the Americans. I simply stated that the Germans, Americans, Filipinos, and the Taiwanese are all amongst the top in the world. I don't think team Europe will have a chance in hell at beating the US in Mosconi Cup while they have Nick vd Berg on their team, personally I think Engert and Feijen are better players, JMO.
 
sniper said:
sjm, I never said in my post that the Germans are better than the Americans. I simply stated that the Germans, Americans, Filipinos, and the Taiwanese are all amongst the top in the world. I don't think team Europe will have a chance in hell at beating the US in Mosconi Cup while they have Nick vd Berg on their team, personally I think Engert and Feijen are better players, JMO.
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Sniper, sorry if I misinterpreted your post. You know, the most incredible thing about VanDenBerg's inclusion on Europe's Mosconi Cup team last year was that his game is so much lower than that of European non-playing captain Oliver Ortmann, who has been ranked #1 on the Eurotour for much of 2004.
 
sniper said:
sjm, I never said in my post that the Germans are better than the Americans. I simply stated that the Germans, Americans, Filipinos, and the Taiwanese are all amongst the top in the world. I don't think team Europe will have a chance in hell at beating the US in Mosconi Cup while they have Nick vd Berg on their team, personally I think Engert and Feijen are better players, JMO.
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LOL. i completely agree. i couldn't understand why he was there before.
 
about the organization

it's nice to know about the organization of pool in germany. i know the dutch are looking for models. germany can be one.
 
Kudo's to onepocketchamp...

Hi John,

wonder were you have been while you stayed in Germany???? You know our pool scene / league system very well...

Souquet is still the only full time professional as far as I know. Thanks to his great sponsors he can live his dream. All the others have to work somehow. May it be that they are part owners of pool cafes or some equipment shops or, or, or.

Most of the upper league players (meaning the leagues just beneath the National Pool league) can not afford to join the Eurotour ón a regular basis due to the lack of sponsorship. The league system works quite well but the real problem is once the junior players have to make a decision what they want to do they will go for a decent job rather than pursue pool. There have been numerous talents which proofed at junior age in the European Championships you never have heard a word from since they tunred 18...There is just not enough money in the sport to choose it as one's profession. Not even in the US there is enbough money.. I once read a nice article in the BD Magazin. There Efren was featured. This special year he made 100 Grand in total prizemoney. If you let aside the money made by sponsorship and endorsment (spelling??) this is ridiculous for someone beeing considered the best player ever walked on this planet. Here in Germany, if you have passed your apprenticeship and got a regular job (nothing really special, lets say you are a salesman or a plumber) you make almost as much. And you will steadily make this money where the pool professional has really to be at the peak of his game to make this amount of money in 2 consecutive years.

Regards,
Markus
 
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