The Greatest Myth in Billiards' History - The Bad Stroke!

[Pidge]

Trust in your stroke is paramount to high level performance on the table. There are only two ways to miss a shot...poor alignment or poor stroke. For many students correcting stroke errors leads to better alignment (as alignment is perceptual, and people perceive things in different ways). I'm not going to argue with Colin, Pidge or anybody else, but in my experience, stroke errors contribute to missing far more often than alignment errors. People who come to me with perceived errors in aiming, cannot move the cuestick in a straight line...especially on demand, under pressure, in one try! Now I certainly agree that the eyes can play tricks on our perception, but I use a different way to help a student find their "vision center". I agree with what Neil has proposed and presented.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I cant argue with what you post. Your opinion is one I have nothing but respect for and look forward to reading.

I think what you say about alignment needs a little adding to it. I don't think alignment is purely a visual concept. I feel it is as much to do with hand eye coordination as it is to do with the physical ability to align yourself onto the correct line. It works in 3 parts I always tell people. First is the visual aspect. Being able to visually see where your body needs to be and the cue needs to be to have perfect alignment. The second is hand eye coordination. The ability to get the cue and body onto this perceived line. The next is the physical ability to keep it there throughout. Moving through the process or pushing the cue off line when you make the final drop is what screws most people up. In snooker, I see it all the time with people dropping right down and either the chest pushes the cue off the line slightly, or people bring the cue to touch the chest - both of which throw the cue off the intended alignment. The only way to correct this properly is to get up and start again. People tend not to notice that the cue has gone off line because they can only see a small portion of it at this point so then they correct the poor alignment by cueing across the white to throw it in the direction needed to make the ball, this is why people think its a bad stroke when they miss.

The only time I can say in snooker a the majority of misses are due to stroke is when using a rest...or bridge as you guys call it

Alignment is very easy with a rest because you can see the entire cue and what line its on. But, people struggle with stroke using it because its not normal. I see people miss the pot and wonder why. Then I introduce them to a measles ball using a bridge and it becomes obvious with how much unintended spin they've generated.

 

[p00lp00l]

What is the point of this thread anyways, just seems like it is to nit pick at the definition of stroke, alignment yada yada for no reason whatsoever. Of course if you have a bad stroke it will affect everything, just as much as alignment or any other part of your mechanics/fundamentals. If you have a bad stroke you won't hit where you are trying to consistently...Either you didn't aim at the right place to begin with, or you didn't deliver the cue through the intended line...?

 

[Matt]

What is the point of this thread anyways, just seems like it is to nit pick at the definition of stroke, alignment yada yada for no reason whatsoever. Of course if you have a bad stroke it will affect everything, just as much as alignment or any other part of your mechanics/fundamentals. If you have a bad stroke you won't hit where you are trying to consistently...Either you didn't aim at the right place to begin with, or you didn't deliver the cue through the intended line...?

I believe the point that Colin was trying to make was that in situations where you can use BHE without any adjustments, hitting the CB in the "right" spot isn't going to determine whether you make the OB or not, so having a "good stroke" (striking the CB as you intend to) is overrated. The first part is demonstrably correct, the second is his opinion/question.

So far, the general consensus seems to be that there are a lot of shots where you can't blindly apply BHE without any compensation and that even when you can, you still need to hit the CB in the right spot to play position.

 

[fan-tum]

When I really have a hard time hitting center cb, I'll do this. Aim and right before drawback, I stare at center cb and don't look up 'till the cb is on its way. Does anyone else have this bandaid.

 

[jburkm002]

Some say to look at the object ball last. If someone is driving straight but looking at an accident to the left, they will naturally veer left. So say you have a thin cut to the left. I have a bad habit of looking that the object balls contact point. I never miss the ball but will hit it fatter than intended. I think that is because I am looking left but shooting straight. When I look at the cue balls path and use my perception of contact points I seem to do better. I don't know what method is best but looking at the object ball may not be best from my experience. Thin cuts can be a good way to test your stroke, alignment and perception of contact points. I think some of us use the wrong visuals.

 

[3kushn]

The biggest cause of misses I see is bad alignment. By far. Its generally caused by bad sighting. Things look right to them but their eyes are deceiving them. They are either aligned centre ball to miss, or aligned for a centre ball pot, but the tip isn't aimed at centre ball. All to do with bad sighting.

The second reason is why so many blame their stroke. It looks like they're lined centre ball to them, but they hit with a trace of side and miss. Poor sighting can lead to a bad stroke if done long enough. You learn to compensate and not cue straight to pocket balls. Then when you fix the sighting the sweeping across the ball still remains. Its a vicious circle.

If things look right what makes you compensate to stroke the CB where it looks wrong?

 

[dr_dave]

I have to agree with most of the posts in this thread; they are correct based on whatever qualifying assumptions or scope limitations they have stated. Some are talking about just making the object ball, some are talking about controlling the cue ball, some assume the use of BHE, some don't, etc.

To go back to the question posed in the OP, my opinion is as follows:

1) If all you are concerned with is making the object ball and you are bridging at the effective pivot point and swerve and throw are insignificant, alignment is far more important than stroke accuracy.

2) If all you are concerned with is making the object ball and are attempting a shot where you are compensating for swerve or throw, stroke accuracy is more important than it is in the first case.

3) If you are trying to make a shot while controlling the cue ball, compensating for swerve or throw, bridging somewhere other than the pivot point, shooting down on the cue ball, and pretty much any other situation besides just trying to make a ball using BHE, I would say that the accuracy of the stroke is at least as important as the alignment. That said, you can have a laser-straight stroke and still miss the object ball if you haven't lined up correctly in the first place, including any necessary compensations.

Excellent post!

I generally agree with Colin that most shots are missed by most people due to poor aim, poor visual alignment, and/or poor cue alignment ... and not because of a poor stroke. Although, for a beginner with a terrible stroke, the stroke can often be a major cause for misses.

Here is a pertinent quote from my why people miss shots resource page:


What are the main and most common reasons why people miss shots?

1.) not enough care and focus given to actually visualizing and aiming the shot.

2.) not enough care and focus given to accurately aligning the cue and tip for the shot.

3.) inaccurate or inconsistent visual alignment (see vision center).

4.) poor or inconsistent pre-shot routine.

5.) lack of understanding or intuition for how to adjust aim for squirt, swerve, and throw (see aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw)

6.) inconsistent and inaccurate stroke resulting in poor speed control and inaccurate tip contact point, resulting in the next shot being missed (even if you pocket the current shot).

Most people miss shots because their aim is off; although, 6 is a huge factor, so the stroke is also very important. To win, you need to make the current shot, but you also need to make the next shot; so if your speed and position control are inaccurate or inconsistent, you won't be a good player.


Good thread!

Regards,
Dave

 

[Tennesseejoe]

One of the best posts ever...a must read.

As not many responses have provided specific points regarding aspects of the stroke and how they effect aiming, I'll provide some of the DO NOTS, which certainly are stroke errors that send the OB off the aim line.

On near straight in shots, applying unintended side english throws the OB offline. On slow shots the throw effect increases, as does swerve on the CB, further messing up the shot. On firm shots, throw is less, swerve is far less (unless the CB is hit high) and depending on one's bridge position relative to the cue's pivot point, deflection could counteract or add to the error. Bridging a little longer than one's pivot point can reduce and even cancel out the effects of such stroking errors.

On cut shots, applying unintended outside english can throw the OB significantly off the intended path. Conversely, unintended inside english often has negligible effect on the OB path. So being careful to hit center or slightly inside can be a way to avoid the stroking errors that result from unintended outside english.

Swiping: When we see cue actions that swipe, it is often assumed this changes the direction of the CB significantly. I suggest people aim at a mark 7 feet away and swipe some shots, hitting near to CCB at slow and firm speeds and see what swiping actually does. Experiment with bridge lengths too and see how that effects any change in direction of the CB due to swiping.

These effects are complex and interrelated, hence they're typically thought of as a forbidden zone and the mysterious cause of many wrongs. Hence they make great excuses for missed shots. If we understood them better, and used our smarts to reduce their influence, we could relive ourselves of a great deal of pressure regarding perfect stroking and focus upon the main causes of missing shots... i.e. Bad aiming via incorrect bridge V placement.

 

[dr_dave]

As not many responses have provided specific points regarding aspects of the stroke and how they effect aiming, I'll provide some of the DO NOTS, which certainly are stroke errors that send the OB off the aim line.

On near straight in shots, applying unintended side english throws the OB offline. On slow shots the throw effect increases, as does swerve on the CB, further messing up the shot. On firm shots, throw is less, swerve is far less (unless the CB is hit high) and depending on one's bridge position relative to the cue's pivot point, deflection could counteract or add to the error. Bridging a little longer than one's pivot point can reduce and even cancel out the effects of such stroking errors.

On cut shots, applying unintended outside english can throw the OB significantly off the intended path. Conversely, unintended inside english often has negligible effect on the OB path. So being careful to hit center or slightly inside can be a way to avoid the stroking errors that result from unintended outside english.

Swiping: When we see cue actions that swipe, it is often assumed this changes the direction of the CB significantly. I suggest people aim at a mark 7 feet away and swipe some shots, hitting near to CCB at slow and firm speeds and see what swiping actually does. Experiment with bridge lengths too and see how that effects any change in direction of the CB due to swiping.

These effects are complex and interrelated, hence they're typically thought of as a forbidden zone and the mysterious cause of many wrongs. Hence they make great excuses for missed shots. If we understood them better, and used our smarts to reduce their influence, we could relive ourselves of a great deal of pressure regarding perfect stroking and focus upon the main causes of missing shots... i.e. Bad aiming via incorrect bridge V placement.

One of the best posts ever...a must read.

Agreed. In fact, I've added quotes from Colin's post and Matt's post to the why people miss shots resource page.

Again, excellent thread,
Dave

 

[Mikjary]

Colin,

In my situation, you're absolutely correct about what makes me miss a shot. 95% of the time it is poor alignment, usually caused by incorrect visuals.

When aligned to the target, my stroke is straight and true. With an incorrect alignment, my compensation to pocket the balls causes my stroke to wobble and veer. I can tell if I'm off line by my practice strokes moving side to side. I get back up and reset until my stroke evens out.

Best,
Mike

 

[Neil]

Agreed. In fact, I've added quotes from Colin's post and Matt's post to the why people miss shots resource page.

Again, excellent thread,
Dave

Before you add it to your list, maybe you should try it first. Get one of those little sensors that show where you hit, and then swipe at it and see where you hit. Won't be where you want it to be unless your pivot point and speed are perfect.

 

[dr_dave]

Before you add it to your list, maybe you should try it first. Get one of those little sensors that show where you hit, and then swipe at it and see where you hit. Won't be where you want it to be unless your pivot point and speed are perfect.

Neil,

FYI, I didn't include the swipe stuff in the partial quote I added to the resource page.

Concerning an experiment involving swoop. It it funny that you mention that because Dave Gross and I performed a complete set of experiments last night. I just starting editing and narrating the video and I hope to post it by early next week. I'll post a link in the swoop thread when it is available.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[mantis99]

I think they both hold significant importance. If your alignment is not correct, then it will be almost impossible to have a straight stroke. Your cue will inherently veer due to your alignment fauly, and this will be magnified the harder you stroke. However, there are definitely misses created by stroke flaws. I for one have a tendency to over grip the cue when I am shooting above a medium stroke speed causing me to either pull the cue towards my body, or cause the cue tip to drop sharply. This definitely causes me to miss at times, and sometimes even miscue if I am shooting a low draw shot. From a stroke stand point, this usually happens when I accelerate my cue forward too quickly from the end of my back stroke.