The Impossible One Railer

Ģüśţāṿ said:
It's a double kiss for sure, I just shot this tonight and actually made it first attempt. Took a few more tries to make it again, but definitely a double kiss. It just happens very fast.
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Can you video yourself and post it?

Two of us have made it as a thin cut with outside so far, on video. Both of us tried double kissing it and couldn’t make it work. And I looked at Alex’s video frame by frame and he’s hitting it very thin.

As thin and hard as we’re hitting it, the CB is long gone before the OB can bounce back and double kiss it. Plus I can just hear the single clean hit.
 
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iusedtoberich said:
How do you go frame by frame on a FB video? I know how on youtube, but could never even figure out skip forward/backwards a few seconds on FB.
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Also, this site sometimes works to download FB videos to your computer or phone:

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@DeadStick I figured out Alex's shot. His video is actually TWO attempts. On the first attempt, at the very beginning where he is screaming, he hits it one rail like you and me were. Then he talks about the shot, then shows the shot a second time from a diffenrt camera angle. This second shot is the double kiss, the CB never hits the long rail at all.

Since you are on a mac, download the video with the link you sent, and open it in VLC. Press the e key to go frame by frame, and you will see the first shot is 1 rail thin, the second shot is a double kiss.
 
iusedtoberich said:
@DeadStick I figured out Alex's shot. His video is actually TWO attempts. On the first attempt, at the very beginning where he is screaming, he hits it one rail like you and me were. Then he talks about the shot, then shows the shot a second time from a diffenrt camera angle. This second shot is the double kiss, the CB never hits the long rail at all.

Since you are on a mac, download the video with the link you sent, and open it in VLC. Press the e key to go frame by frame, and you will see the first shot is 1 rail thin, the second shot is a double kiss.
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Not that I'd patently doubt APs word but the ball acts very strangely in the first shot. VLC FXF doesn't show the hit but it shows the 9 ball moving at feathered speed in the direction of the wrong pocket before it takes off at the intended pocket at speed. There's no indication of rail compression or much spin on the 9 ball.
 
iusedtoberich said:
@DeadStick I figured out Alex's shot. His video is actually TWO attempts. On the first attempt, at the very beginning where he is screaming, he hits it one rail like you and me were. Then he talks about the shot, then shows the shot a second time from a diffenrt camera angle. This second shot is the double kiss, the CB never hits the long rail at all.

Since you are on a mac, download the video with the link you sent, and open it in VLC. Press the e key to go frame by frame, and you will see the first shot is 1 rail thin, the second shot is a double kiss.
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Downloaded and analyzed the second video. The second shot, showing the whole table, was a thin cut as well. May have been the same shot as the first video, just from a different angle.

The CB hit the long rail just to the right of the OB, but you don't see it when looking frame by frame, because it happened so fast it's missing from the footage (there's a 4-6" gap between CB positions in each frame).

Look again at frames 1 through 5 below:

Frame 1 clearly shows the CB approaching the OB on a thin cut line at high speed.

Frame 2 shows the CB headed across the table to the opposite long rail, at a high rate of speed. The rebound off the first long rail just to the right of the OB happened just before this frame. The blur of the CB shows its path.

Frames 3, 4, and 5 show the continuing straight line path of the CB.

At the bottom of these five frames, I show a composite overlay with more notes...

1
1704346439133.png

2
1704346484017.png

3
1704346506297.png

4
1704346521214.png

5
1704346545948.png



Composite overlay of the 5 frames
The path of the CB in shown in red. No way it did anything between frames 1 and 2 other than rebound off the rail. You can also see 5 images of the OB, showing it's taking a straight-line path to the pocket, as the thin one-rail cut bank would send it.

If it had been a double hit, and the CB had not hit the rail, then the CB's line of travel would have started from where the OB was originally, not 2 inches or so to its right, and the OB would have shown more deviation from its straight-line path.

1704347810239.png
 
Texas Carom Club said:
harder on a valley? thats interesting

i shoot at these often, aiming at the edge and using spin
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Yes, IMO harder on a BB. When you make it reverse on a 9ft it will have time to lengthen more. I play one pocket too and most people overlook it or don't shoot it. My opinion is from a amateur's view.
 
book collector said:
The first time I saw the shot made I almost fell out of my chair, Rudolpho Luat made it. the cueball was on the same line but not in the pocket
Oh , by the way, he was playing in a tournament against another top player if I remember correctly. I looked on You Tube and JB posted a shot like it , it is not the same shot Luat played, Luat's shot did not look like he double kissed it in . He hit it paper thin at warp speed. and he killed the cueball with inside . It was a very weird looking shot.
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SlateMan said:
I'm a banger, (APA 6) and this was my first attempt at this shot cold. My rails are pretty warn out. I think I could make this with more lively rails.

I used low right spin. You can jump to about 50 seconds to see the shot. The rest was left in to see me turning on the table. I went to get my jacket to grill some things out back and thought I would try the shot. .
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Your table is not leveled … no disrespect. Sir
 
crabbcatjohn said:
Yes, IMO harder on a BB. When you make it reverse on a 9ft it will have time to lengthen more. I play one pocket too and most people overlook it or don't shoot it. My opinion is from a amateur's view.
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If you watch my video from earlier in the thread, you can see the OB takes a straight-line path to the corner - it doesn't lengthen. It stuns into the rail without side spin due to right english on the CB, and rolls slowly straight to the corner.

The shot geometry should be the same between a 9 footer and a BB, so the only difference will be the size of the pocket, and how close the pocket is to the OB. Should be a little easier on the BB even if the pockets are the same size.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I tried the double kiss. I could not get it to bank near the corner, more like straight across the table. There could very well be the perfect spot/spin/speed combo, but I could not find it in about 10 min of trying and gave up.
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From that angle, I don’t think there is any possible way to double hit the ball and get it to rebound in that direction. You’d have to hit the object ball quite a bit fuller than the thin cut, and it would not head in that direction.
 
SHORTY WRIGHT said:
Your table is not leveled … no disrespect. Sir
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Table is level, the cloth is dirty right now and the camera distorts things a bit. I've left it uncovered over the last few weeks and I have some tiny crap that fell from the attic putting away the Christmas stuff.
iusedtoberich said:
It might be perfectly level. Wide angle lens distort the image, and make straight lines curved. That includes both the table edges, and the path a ball takes.
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Bingo. It is a Wyze $30 camera that is mounted to the ceiling. I keep this camera running 24/7 just in case I amaze myself. I might have a bit of crap on the table as I just put the Christmas stuff in the attic, but the table is level. My perimeter light has three different color schemes, I'll also have to remember that this particular light color didn't show so well on camera.
 
pt109 said:
Vern Elliot’s Impossible bank….by Bob Jewett

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Well done @Bob Jewett. Good proof that outside english transfers opposite spin to the OB even with a razor-thin cut at speed. That shot wouldn’t be possible with center or inside.

Question for Bob and maybe @dr_dave that I’ve never seen brought up (possibly because it’s very dumb): do you think this shot is easier with the OB frozen to the rail, since the rail gives resistance to it moving away as fast from the CB, and that allows the outside english to grab more? Would the shot be slightly tougher if both balls were moved away from the rail by 1/8”?
 
DeadStick said:
... do you think this shot is easier with the OB frozen to the rail, since the rail gives resistance to it moving away as fast from the CB, ...
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I don't think so. The cushion is much softer than the balls and the cushion compression has barely started by the time the cue ball is gone.
 
DeadStick said:
Alex's shot took me 9 tries. I think I had the 9-ball closer to 2.5 diamonds than Alex did, at around 2.4 diamonds. His looked like 2 and 1/3 diamonds. Had a couple misses by 2" long that still reached the pocket, so it's definitely doable at 2.5 or maybe 2.75 diamonds, maybe even 3 with the perfect strike.

Thin cut, low right, and hard:

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While I can't say I know what's best, I've always hit this shot fairly soft. That's why I said you need to be playing on a fast table. In my small mind, it seems the spin would transfer more with a softer hit. I tried the shot on my table 5 or 6 times last night. While I didn't make it, I did get it close (within 6 inches or so) every time. I'm guessing with enough tries I could make it. My point is, it's possible with a soft hit too.
 
fjk said:
While I can't say I know what's best, I've always hit this shot fairly soft. That's why I said you need to be playing on a fast table. In my small mind, it seems the spin would transfer more with a softer hit. I tried the shot on my table 5 or 6 times last night. While I didn't make it, I did get it close (within 6 inches or so) every time. I'm guessing with enough tries I could make it. My point is, it's possible with a soft hit too.
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All I know is I had to hit it hard, I’d say 85% max effort without standing up like a break shot, to get the OB to slow-roll back to the pocket. Alex was going after it, too - check out the length of his follow-thru.

I’m on a 9 footer with Mark Gregory-built Superspeed rails and Simonis 860, easily capable of 9-rail shots, so definitely not a slow table.
 
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