The IPT Cloth - Will it be chaged?

Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The IPT Cloth - Will it be changed?

To the credit of the IPT, they openly presented the con side of the cloth debate on their website, as shown below:

Dan Wallace, who was eliminated earlier this evening by Ramil Gallego, offered his opinion regarding the cloth that the IPT is considering making their official cloth: “I’ve spoken to many players over the last couple of tournaments, and many of them agree with me that the problem with the cloth that they’re using is that it removes a good thirty to forty percent of the finesse from the game, and as far as I can tell, pool enthusiasts want to watch finesse. That’s why we love to watch this sport. We want to see those little touchy shots that break things out or create great safeties. What’s happening with this cloth, particularly on the rails, is frequently, depending on the angle that you’re shooting a shot at, it doesn’t matter what spin you have on it, it doesn’t bite at all. You get absolutely no reaction out of the cue ball. And so numerous shots that have existed on all other kinds of cloth that I’ve ever played on in a professional-level tournament (which are many kinds, of course) simply don’t exist on this cloth. They just disappear. You can’t use them any more.”

I think Dan is spot on here. There is a lot of magic that can be done on a low faster cloth with not-so-slippery rails, and these are the kinds of shots that can excite players as well as spectators.

I do like the advantage of the slow cloth in that it really tests the power game, but then again it limits the range of power shots. For example, a draw shot full length of the table and back to break up a cluster is just not going to be attempted on the slow nap cloth.

Lets make a comparison to golf and snooker:
1. Pro snooker has tighter pockets and faster tables than average tables.
2. Pro golf has faster greens, low cut fairways, narrower fairways, harder pin placement than average courses.

Co maybe the IPT ought to consider a fast table, grippier rails and tight pocket approach. Perhaps 4.5 is already tight enough, or they could go to 4.25 to really make the players earn those outs.

Another point - I think the average player likes to play on fast tables. I would have thought there is a bigger market for a faster worsted cloth that doesn't have piling problems.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
To the credit of the IPT, they openly presented the con side of the cloth debate on their website, as shown below:

Dan Wallace, who was eliminated earlier this evening by Ramil Gallego, offered his opinion regarding the cloth that the IPT is considering making their official cloth: “I’ve spoken to many players over the last couple of tournaments, and many of them agree with me that the problem with the cloth that they’re using is that it removes a good thirty to forty percent of the finesse from the game, and as far as I can tell, pool enthusiasts want to watch finesse. That’s why we love to watch this sport. We want to see those little touchy shots that break things out or create great safeties. What’s happening with this cloth, particularly on the rails, is frequently, depending on the angle that you’re shooting a shot at, it doesn’t matter what spin you have on it, it doesn’t bite at all. You get absolutely no reaction out of the cue ball. And so numerous shots that have existed on all other kinds of cloth that I’ve ever played on in a professional-level tournament (which are many kinds, of course) simply don’t exist on this cloth. They just disappear. You can’t use them any more.”

I think Dan is spot on here. There is a lot of magic that can be done on a low faster cloth with not-so-slippery rails, and these are the kinds of shots that can excite players as well as spectators.

I do like the advantage of the slow cloth in that it really tests the power game, but then again it limits the range of power shots. For example, a draw shot full length of the table and back to break up a cluster is just not going to be attempted on the slow nap cloth.

Lets make a comparison to golf and snooker:
1. Pro snooker has tighter pockets and faster tables than average tables.
2. Pro golf has faster greens, low cut fairways, narrower fairways, harder pin placement than average courses.

Co maybe the IPT ought to consider a fast table, grippier rails and tight pocket approach. Perhaps 4.5 is already tight enough, or they could go to 4.25 to really make the players earn those outs.

Another point - I think the average player likes to play on fast tables. I would have thought there is a bigger market for a faster worsted cloth that doesn't have piling problems.
Click to expand...


Add to that, if this cloth is to be part of a product line, I.E. make money for the tour and players, they are creating a product nobody wants and they won't be able to sell, so what good is it. I think I said that like a few weeks ago.
 
Cloth Speed - Style of Play

How ironic that this post/subject shows up on the forum today!!!

Just YESTERDAY, I was talking to a well known cuemaker that is also a well known Masters pro player about this very subject.

His take on the cloth speed (and he is VERY MUCH IN FAVOR of the current slow cloth) is that it requires more skill and better position play to win on slower cloth. He indicated that on slower cloth - it takes a better "stroke" to move the cue ball around the table and that balls tend to "tie up" more and, his biggest point of all, LESS BALLS GO IN ON THE BREAK!!

He strongly feels that all of those factors give the more skilled player his much deserved better opportunity to win.

There is some logic to the points he is making.;)

I would also guess that older players would be more in favor of slow cloth because that is what WE grew up on.

My personal take is that faster cloth is THE cloth for 9 Ball. Whereas, fast cloth may not be the best way to go for One Pocket and Straight Pool.:D
 
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trainer said:
Where on the ipt website is the slow cloth conversation?
Click to expand...

It's in the Q & A section of the IPT website - www.internationalpooltour.com

QUESTION:
Why a slow-nap cloth?

ANSWER:
This is a highly controversial topic. It is our belief that the use of the fast worsted wool cloth that is required for use in all tournaments around the world today has made the game much easier in many respects. When you have a fast worsted cloth a player does not have to develop a powerful stroke. Moving the cue ball around the table is easy. Players must use finesse and have a precision speed to be effective on fast cloth; however, power is not important. A good analogy would be playing a par three hole in golf. A powerful golfer with a great drive, who can hit the ball a long way, has no advantage on a par three. Finesse and accuracy is what is required to win. A fast cloth is the same. Pool, however, should be a blend between power as well as finesse. By using a slow-nap cloth, as has been used for the majority of the time throughout the history of pool, requires that a player not only have finesse, but also have power. When a player is required to use a hard powerful stroke the degree of error goes up dramatically. Therefore, a weaker player, or a player who can not stroke the ball hard with accuracy, is at a major disadvantage. This exposes the better players and the weaker players. It is amazing that the majority of professional 9 Ball players on tours around the world have never played on a nap cloth. It will be interesting to see how these "world champions" and "great players" do on a nap cloth against older veteran pool players who grew up playing pool with the slow-nap cloth. We believe that the slow-nap cloth will create more exciting matches, more powerful strokes, more dramatic misses, and a requirement for more strategy.
 
IPT Comments Are Accurate - If....

rackmsuckr said:
It's in the Q & A section of the IPT website - www.internationalpooltour.com

QUESTION:
Why a slow-nap cloth?

ANSWER:
This is a highly controversial topic. It is our belief that the use of the fast worsted wool cloth that is required for use in all tournaments around the world today has made the game much easier in many respects. When you have a fast worsted cloth a player does not have to develop a powerful stroke. Moving the cue ball around the table is easy. Players must use finesse and have a precision speed to be effective on fast cloth; however, power is not important. A good analogy would be playing a par three hole in golf. A powerful golfer with a great drive, who can hit the ball a long way, has no advantage on a par three. Finesse and accuracy is what is required to win. A fast cloth is the same. Pool, however, should be a blend between power as well as finesse. By using a slow-nap cloth, as has been used for the majority of the time throughout the history of pool, requires that a player not only have finesse, but also have power. When a player is required to use a hard powerful stroke the degree of error goes up dramatically. Therefore, a weaker player, or a player who can not stroke the ball hard with accuracy, is at a major disadvantage. This exposes the better players and the weaker players. It is amazing that the majority of professional 9 Ball players on tours around the world have never played on a nap cloth. It will be interesting to see how these "world champions" and "great players" do on a nap cloth against older veteran pool players who grew up playing pool with the slow-nap cloth. We believe that the slow-nap cloth will create more exciting matches, more powerful strokes, more dramatic misses, and a requirement for more strategy.
Click to expand...

What they say FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE is accurate - depending on whose shoes you are wearing (Perspective). A case can be made for fast or slow cloth, regular or small pockets, or whatever.....etc etc etc. Just like in golf (big titanium drivers, golf balls that go further or spin more etc), fast cloth makes for a slightly different game than nappier cloth.
Big drivers and golf balls that go farther attract more TV viewers and sponsors because it makes for a more exciting game - fast cloth does create more action and makes for a faster game that could be perceived as making for a more exciting game. Hope that made sense:o
 
I understand

SirBanksALot said:
What they say FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE is accurate - depending on whose shoes you are wearing (Perspective). A case can be made for fast or slow cloth, regular or small pockets, or whatever.....etc etc etc. Just like in golf (big titanium drivers, golf balls that go further or spin more etc), fast cloth makes for a slightly different game than nappier cloth.
Big drivers and golf balls that go farther attract more TV viewers and sponsors because it makes for a more exciting game - fast cloth does create more action and makes for a faster game that could be perceived as making for a more exciting game. Hope that made sense:o
Click to expand...

What you are saying, but I don't think they will change cloth, and these are just some considerations:

1) They have identified the IPT as being different and more professional.
(If they used what every other tournament does, they would get
lumped in with them)
2) Fast cloth is just too easy. I never have cared for Simonis that much.
3) A lot of people have qualified and played on the current cloth. If they switch cloth, that would bring many questions and issues to the forefront
like if so and so would have still qualified on a fast cloth or not.
5) The IPT wants to identify the players with the most knowledge and the best strokes, slow cloth is more of a test of that than fast cloth.
7) I believe, anyway, that the players that rise to the top will be the best players, and not 1 trick ponies.

As you said, arguments can be made for both sides, but I think the slower cloth is more in line with what the IPt is trying to accomplish than faster cloth.

It's kind of like the argument whether someone can break Mosconi's 14.1 record of 526 balls. Maybe so, maybe not, but let them try it UNDER the same table conditions as he did it.
 
For those of you who are hoping that the IPT will change the cloth I suggest you reread the Thoughts of the Tournament Director thread.

It will be an even playing field for all of the IPT Pros. And like Deno says, The cream of the crop will rise to the top. The truly great will adjust to it and play well on it.

It did not appear to me that anyone really had any problems with it in Orlando at the KOTH.

And I like Rob Saez' comment that he does not feel like a pro until he gets his IPT Tour card. I sure hope he gets it. I hear he has been working hard at Capone's in Spring Hill. He seems to have adjusted well to the cloth.

Jake
 
I myself prefer to play on a slower cloth, like Mali 8820 as an example & have never liked playing on a surface like Simonis. In my opinion, it takes a more powerful stroke & more precise control to move the cue ball around effectively on the slower cloth. Also, jumping the cue ball with either your playing cue or a jumper is also easier on the slower surface than on the fast cloth.

My home table has the slow surface & I won't even consider recovering it with a fast cloth. However, just about every poolroom that I visit has a faster cloth (mostly Simonis) on all their tables since that's what has been in use in many of the big tournaments since 1990 or 1991 if I remember correctly & consequently many players have for the most part only played on a faster surface.

It has been my observation & recollection that when brand new slower speed cloth is first installed, it does have some speed to it. It's not as fast or slick as a surface like Simonis 760 or 860 is when those are brand new but it's still there nonetheless. After the cloth has been used for a while, then it starts to slow up quite a bit.

I would think that the IPT would be putting out brand new cloth for their "World Championship" exhibition and their recent "King of the Hill" event. Thus, the surface wouldn't be as "slow" as the powers that be would have you think it is.
 
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If they were using cloth that wasn't brand new, they might get the effect they're looking for but brand new nap cloth plays as fast as the 860 Simonis, only it slides much worse. If they're going to use new cloth for each event, they'd be much better off using something like Simonis 860. It doesn't take "more stroke" to move the ball around on brand new nap cloth than it does to move the ball around on brand new Simonis 860. The fact is that the entire pool world (at least in this country) went to a cloth like Simonis because it's a superior product. Sigel just has Trudeu fooled into thinking he, his buddy, will win all the tournaments if these young whipper-snappers have to play on the old cloth that Sigel used to play on. :rolleyes:


Colin Colenso said:
To the credit of the IPT, they openly presented the con side of the cloth debate on their website, as shown below:

Dan Wallace, who was eliminated earlier this evening by Ramil Gallego, offered his opinion regarding the cloth that the IPT is considering making their official cloth: “I’ve spoken to many players over the last couple of tournaments, and many of them agree with me that the problem with the cloth that they’re using is that it removes a good thirty to forty percent of the finesse from the game, and as far as I can tell, pool enthusiasts want to watch finesse. That’s why we love to watch this sport. We want to see those little touchy shots that break things out or create great safeties. What’s happening with this cloth, particularly on the rails, is frequently, depending on the angle that you’re shooting a shot at, it doesn’t matter what spin you have on it, it doesn’t bite at all. You get absolutely no reaction out of the cue ball. And so numerous shots that have existed on all other kinds of cloth that I’ve ever played on in a professional-level tournament (which are many kinds, of course) simply don’t exist on this cloth. They just disappear. You can’t use them any more.”

I think Dan is spot on here. There is a lot of magic that can be done on a low faster cloth with not-so-slippery rails, and these are the kinds of shots that can excite players as well as spectators.

I do like the advantage of the slow cloth in that it really tests the power game, but then again it limits the range of power shots. For example, a draw shot full length of the table and back to break up a cluster is just not going to be attempted on the slow nap cloth.

Lets make a comparison to golf and snooker:
1. Pro snooker has tighter pockets and faster tables than average tables.
2. Pro golf has faster greens, low cut fairways, narrower fairways, harder pin placement than average courses.

Co maybe the IPT ought to consider a fast table, grippier rails and tight pocket approach. Perhaps 4.5 is already tight enough, or they could go to 4.25 to really make the players earn those outs.

Another point - I think the average player likes to play on fast tables. I would have thought there is a bigger market for a faster worsted cloth that doesn't have piling problems.
Click to expand...
 
Wallace hits it straight on..He gives a factual example that is directly on point..The ipt response is vague and reeks of the attitude that has held men's pool captive for the 40 years that i have experienced..The chosen few making bad self-serving decisions that have effected all of us..This TOUR cloth is crap..Jimmy M. has given the correct reason for this cloth's use..Glory Days..
Terry O.:cool:
 
What is the big love affair with Simonis 860?
As Jimmy m indicated, for single use practically any cloth plays fast. For prolonged use it's true that Simonis' thread treatment process will keep the 860 from becoming knappy longer, but as several pool hall owners commented on another thread awhile back, the 860 wears out much faster than a number of other cloths and is a good bit more expensive.

I happen to disagree with the notion that you get better "action" on the Simonis.....you may get MORE action on Simonis but you get a truer action on a slightly knappier cloth because the ball doesn't slide as much.

Denos point that those who can adjust will do well is right. Those who can't adjust won't do well, the same could have been said(and was said I believe) when they first came out with the fast cloths. It's an even playing field for the competitors.Whining and crying about it does no good.

Terry
 
I have not played on the IPT cloth, but I do know that new Mali cloth makes the balls like ball bearings, it is not that slow and slides better than the german bobsled teams.
I also dont understand why they dont open up the playing surfaces to different cloths. If you have companies wanting to sponsor events, leave that option for the cloth companies to pay the IPT to use their product for different tournaments. After all Pine Hills plays a Helluva lot different than Pebble Beach. Why not have different playing conditions on the IPT?
 
vader93490 said:
It has been my observation & recollection that when brand new slower speed cloth is first installed, it does have some speed to it. It's not as fast or slick as a surface like Simonis 760 or 860 is when those are brand new but it's still there nonetheless. After the cloth has been used for a while, then it starts to slow up quite a bit.
Click to expand...
I would agree with this statement 100%.

I played on the practice tables at the KOTH event and the cloth wasn't that slow and that was after a few days use.
 
Scottster said:
I have not played on the IPT cloth, but I do know that new Mali cloth makes the balls like ball bearings, it is not that slow and slides better than the german bobsled teams.
I also dont understand why they dont open up the playing surfaces to different cloths. If you have companies wanting to sponsor events, leave that option for the cloth companies to pay the IPT to use their product for different tournaments. After all Pine Hills plays a Helluva lot different than Pebble Beach. Why not have different playing conditions on the IPT?
Click to expand...

I agree with your reasoning about leaving the cloth as an advertising incentive. Unfortunately KT seems to have decided to market his own IPT branded cloth and not seek outside advertising for much of anything.:confused:

Terry
 
spadevil said:
I played on the practice tables at the KOTH event and the cloth wasn't that slow and that was after a few days use.
Click to expand...

It takes more than just a few days for a slower surface like the Mali 8820 to start slowing up. My observation has been that it takes a few months for it to truly play "slow" like the IPT is claiming with their "slow cloth" advertisements.

Like I said before, I personally prefer playing on the slower surface. In my opinion, you need to have good to excellent control of the snow to play well on it & it takes a bigger stroke to move the snow effectively. Surfaces like Simonis are, in my opinion, just too slick & slippery for my liking.
 
It Does Seem Like Its A Different Game...Almost-

trainer said:
Wallace hits it straight on..He gives a factual example that is directly on point..The ipt response is vague and reeks of the attitude that has held men's pool captive for the 40 years that i have experienced..The chosen few making bad self-serving decisions that have effected all of us..This TOUR cloth is crap..Jimmy M. has given the correct reason for this cloth's use..Glory Days..
Terry O.:cool:
Click to expand...

My business travels take me to different parts of the western U.S. In the summer, my Titleist and Calloway stuff goes with me but in the winter, my pool cue gets packed. I get a chance to play on the fast cloth in Las Vegas or the deadly slow stuff that is in Salt Lake or Albuquerque.

I'm certainly not the caliber player that Terry or Jimmy M is but, from my perspective, playing on slower cloth is a different game.

I go back to my original comment earlier on this thread - its easier to play on a surface that's more familiar or you are more comfortable with. The old pro I was talking to wanted less balls pocketed on the break and a distinct premium on precise position play (as compared to shotmaking).

There is not a RIGHT or WRONG on this issue.

Again - its whose mocassins you're wearing:p
 
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