The IPT is a business

[MFB]

Ya know I just don’t get most of the posters here. There is way too much negativity.

I don’t agree with the IPT the way they have handle things. But, if the IPT wasn’t trying to make things right, and continue and stay in business, then plain and simply put, they wouldn’t pay anybody anything. Nobody would receive a nickel. They would just fold up shop and go home.

The IPT is a business, not a charity. Like any business, if they can’t make a profit, at some point, they will cease to exist.

I am sure several posters here have worked in businesses that have failed. In my experience, here’s what happens:

Money gets tight.
Costs are reduced. Easiest and quickest way is by headcount.
Vendors are strung along.
Must sell more product or raise money to exist.
If all else fails, bankruptcy. Then nobody wins.

Sounds to me like some people here want to see that happen.

Hopefully, the IPT can make changes and bounce back. The players receiving checks, however how small, is an attempt to move in the right direction.

Now, feel free to flame away!

 

[Timberly]

The IPT is a business, not a charity. Like any business, if they can’t make a profit, at some point, they will cease to exist.

I don't think you'll find anyone here that will disagree with this statement.

The problem is that since it's inception, people have openly said that the "business plan" would not work to support the payouts. KT gave us his answer at the very first players meeting in Orlando....

He said that he knew it was going to take time to build the IPT into a money making venture... he's a business man and he knows how these things work, sooooo... He said that He would fund the tour out of his own pocket for the first two years. Not to mention that the money was already in escrow with a national marketing firm.

We're less than a year into it, pushed the tournament dates out to later than originally planned, only had 2 and a half events (half being Orlando), canceled, and "postponed" events. It has not been two years, they haven't even had a full season, and KT has not honored one of the very things he said to ensure people quit their jobs and put their lives on hold to play in the IPT.... payment at every tournament, fully funded by him for two years.

 

[av84fun]

MFB[B]...>>But, if the IPT wasn’t trying to make things right, and continue and stay in business, then plain and simply put, they wouldn’t pay anybody anything.>> <<Now, feel free to flame away!>>[/B]

No flame at all. I see where you are coming from. I don't presume to speak for any other poster but I think it is fair to say that a certain theory has been proposed on this forum...that I do not necessarily support or reject...that IF some person or company acted in a way that would expose him or it to very large legal risks....possibly in the millions...then that person or firm might well adopt a strategy desined to appease those who might be upset.

Such things...generally speaking...like an offer of partial payments might well appease those who feel upset and might convince them NOT to take legal action in spite of the existence of "very important" people who might have led the charge toward filing suit.

So, the above is simply one theory that could explain the matter you raised.

Regards,
Jim

 

[MFB]

I don't think you'll find anyone here that will disagree with this statement.

The problem is that since it's inception, people have openly said that the "business plan" would not work to support the payouts. KT gave us his answer at the very first players meeting in Orlando....

He said that he knew it was going to take time to build the IPT into a money making venture... he's a business man and he knows how these things work, sooooo... He said that He would fund the tour out of his own pocket for the first two years. Not to mention that the money was already in escrow with a national marketing firm.

We're less than a year into it, pushed the tournament dates out to later than originally planned, only had 2 and a half events (half being Orlando), canceled, and "postponed" events. It has not been two years, they haven't even had a full season, and KT has not honored one of the very things he said to ensure people quit their jobs and put their lives on hold to play in the IPT.... payment at every tournament, fully funded by him for two years.

The IPT is more or less a brand new start-up company. Pie in the sky expectations.....and then reality hits, timelines are waaaaayyy outta whack, things change, business plans are scrapped, and new directions are taken. I know. I have worked for start-ups before, (and currently am seeing the gears shift at the one I work at now).

I agree with your view here, and see the obvious misrepresentations. I am just tired of everyone belittling any sort of payment whatsoever when to me, they are obviously trying to make amends.

 

[Timberly]

The IPT is more or less a brand new start-up company. Pie in the sky expectations.....and then reality hits, timelines are waaaaayyy outta whack, things change, business plans are scrapped, and new directions are taken. I know. I have worked for start-ups before, (and currently am seeing the gears shift at the one I work at now).

I agree with your view here, and see the obvious misrepresentations. I am just tired of everyone belittling any sort of payment whatsoever when to me, they are obviously trying to make amends.

It doesn't appear like you're seeing the situation or KT for what they really are. Maybe if you knew the details of the IPT, their promises, their choices, their changes, and their lies from begining to end, you would see things a little differently. For all I know, you do know those things and still see it the way you do....

I'm not going to try to force my way of thinking onto you and I'm not going to spend all night typing up all the info. I'll simply agree to disagree with you on this matter.

 

[av84fun]

Timberly...<<It has not been two years, they haven't even had a full season, and KT has not honored one of the very things he said to ensure people quit their jobs and put their lives on hold to play in the IPT.... >>

You have made those points quite a few times.You might want to consider dropping it.

Regards,
Jim

 

[ironman]

Timberly...<<It has not been two years, they haven't even had a full season, and KT has not honored one of the very things he said to ensure people quit their jobs and put their lives on hold to play in the IPT.... >>

You have made those points quite a few times.You might want to consider dropping it.

Regards,
Jim

I beg to differ. These are the very points of all the unhappiness and negativity.

We can blame the IPT's delilma on bad business plans all we want. The business plan never worked because the very basis of the business plan was never implemented as Garunteed.

That is the very reason they were not paid in Reno. It had nothing to do with Ho. That is the very reality Timberly is trying to point out.

 

[av84fun]

ironman...<<I beg to differ. These are the very points of all the unhappiness and negativity....That is the very reality Timberly is trying to point out.>>

Right...exactly...so I am not sure what you beg to differ with. All those issues have been repeated endlessly. Possibly you missed her numerous comments on those points. I was just expressing the opinion that it might be time to bring up new subjects...one's that haven't been discussed laboriously already. Just IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Da Poet]

Ya know I just don’t get most of the posters here. There is way too much negativity.

Kevin Trudeau and the IPT are on a short leash with everyone as they should be. Every move KT makes needs to be watched very closely. Maybe the partial payment is a sign of good faith, maybe it's damage control prior to bankruptcy. Who knows? Because of KT's inconsistencies, it's reasonable to be prepared for the worst and I think it makes sense that a lot of posters feel that the worst is more likely than the best right now.

Effectively, most of the the players are on strike right now until Reno is paid in full, and all the tournaments have been cancelled. There's not exactly a roaring fire underneath the IPT right now.

 

[ironman]

ironman...<<I beg to differ. These are the very points of all the unhappiness and negativity....That is the very reality Timberly is trying to point out.>>

Right...exactly...so I am not sure what you beg to differ with. All those issues have been repeated endlessly. Possibly you missed her numerous comments on those points. I was just expressing the opinion that it might be time to bring up new subjects...one's that haven't been discussed laboriously already. Just IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

IMHO too. LOL

 

[cueman]

Here is my prediction:
Unless KT get totally fed up with being run down and trashed, I think he will pay everyone in full eventually, scale back the future payouts and keep a smaller $$ tour going. So my advice is: unless he personally owes you any money quit running him down and see if he can get a tour going that is at least better than nothing. I have heard from pros that wish everyone would quit putting him down and give him some time to work things out. That is what they are doing and they are afraid he will eventually say he does not need all the grief and walk away.

 

[Timberly]

I beg to differ. These are the very points of all the unhappiness and negativity.

We can blame the IPT's delilma on bad business plans all we want. The business plan never worked because the very basis of the business plan was never implemented as Garunteed.

That is the very reason they were not paid in Reno. It had nothing to do with Ho. That is the very reality Timberly is trying to point out.

Ironman, he's simply trying to antagonize me because I politely asked him to drop a subject that already had a resolution. It appears that I am now his next "victim" and he will continue to make posts like this in regards to my posts simply to try to prove something.

For future reference, when he posts something like this in regards to one of my posts, it's best to simply ignore him. After seeing his post and knowing his inability to drop things and his incessant antagonizing of people to try to drag them into an arguement so he can prove to everyone how right he is and how wrong they are, I'm left with no choice but to put him on ignore. I was trying to refrain from doing so because at times he has good points and valid posts but I'm not going to wade through all of his antagonizing posts just to try to find the valid ones.

 

[Timberly]

Here is my prediction:
Unless KT get totally fed up with being run down and trashed, I think he will pay everyone in full eventually, scale back the future payouts and keep a smaller $$ tour going. So my advice is: unless he personally owes you any money quit running him down and see if he can get a tour going that is at least better than nothing. I have heard from pros that wish everyone would quit putting him down and give him some time to work things out. That is what they are doing and they are afraid he will eventually say he does not need all the grief and walk away.

KT stated from the get go that he doesn't care what is said by us on the forums. He said we don't have two nickles to rub together and he doesn't care what we say.

Some of the people on this forum have done for the players, what the IPT didn't... tell the truth. The IPT has blatantly lied to the players and some people on this forum have revealed that and were it not for those people revealing some of those lies, the players would still be hearing those lies from the IPT.

KT might very well blame it on the forums when he decides to close up shop but I assure you, his decision to close up shop will not because of something some two bit idiot that doesn't have two nickles to rub together has said.

 

[av84fun]

cueman...VERY valid points but...

<<I have heard from pros that wish everyone would quit putting him down and give him some time to work things out.>>

We all need to keep in mind that there is a VAST difference in the situations of those few who are owed quite large sums of money and who are virtually assured of being invited to any future tournaments...and those who are owed meaningful (to them) but much smaller sums and who may or may not have to qualify for those events.

Category A might be described as those who have won a lot of money on tour...through endorsements...product sales etc. and who have a decent or better income stream. Those people can really afford to take a wait and see attitude...and look upon any future IPT winnings as "found money."

Category B might be described as the FAR greater number of players who are barely making a living...some even living in their cars on the road...who spent or had sponsors like me spend money to get them qualified...and who NEED the money they are OWED...and need it NOW.

I trust you would agree that members of those two catagories have and should have very different views about all this.

Having said that...there may well be members of the B group who also just wish for the best re: the IPT and just keep on keepin' on. Cool. But there are certainly others who simply on a matter of principal...if not need...will demand that they get paid what they are owed.

I personally would not sit in judgment of the attitudes of members of either group.

Their INTERESTS are just quite dramatically different. You didn't say or imply that you had spoken to ALL the pros and I don't mean to suggest that you did...but I think that if anyone did, they would hear widely varying views on what should or should not be done.

Excellent post though.

Regards,
Jim

 

[macguy]

Here is my prediction:
Unless KT get totally fed up with being run down and trashed, I think he will pay everyone in full eventually, scale back the future payouts and keep a smaller $$ tour going. So my advice is: unless he personally owes you any money quit running him down and see if he can get a tour going that is at least better than nothing. I have heard from pros that wish everyone would quit putting him down and give him some time to work things out. That is what they are doing and they are afraid he will eventually say he does not need all the grief and walk away.

Why, can you answer that? It can't make any money, even if scaled back it just may lose less. KT is not a pool player, enthusiast or even a fan from the content of some of his comments. So what reason would he have to continue any kind of tour, it makes no sense. He may pay a percent of the money to the players so as to keep the company going for the TV deals he may have in the works and milk what ever he can out of it to try to recoup. Future tournaments, I seriously doubt it.

Just out of curiosity, most of us that have commented in the negative over the months have had pretty specific reasons for our opinions and expressed them. I never see a reason for the opinions that are positive. You must have some reason for your opinion beyond just blind faith. This has been a one sided discussion almost since it started with those who thought the business plan and entire idea in general was ridiculous. We explained countless reasons for why felt that way whether others agreed or not, but other then being called names, never heard a decent argument why we are wrong.

I am a very open minded person I wish some of you could at least provide some food for thought. If someone would just say, "Yes, but your are ignoring this, this and that and that is why it can work", I would listen and consider their points. I'm sorry. Please don't feel I am attacking you in any way I just would be interested in not just your opinions but why.

 

[cueman]

Why, can you answer that? It can't make any money, even if scaled back it just may lose less. KT is not a pool player, enthusiast or even a fan from the content of some of his comments. So what reason would he have to continue any kind of tour, it makes no sense. He may pay a percent of the money to the players so as to keep the company going for the TV deals he may have in the works and milk what ever he can out of it to try to recoup. Future tournaments, I seriously doubt it.

Just out of curiosity, most of us that have commented in the negative over the months have had pretty specific reasons for our opinions and expressed them. I never see a reason for the opinions that are positive. You must have some reason for your opinion beyond just blind faith. This has been a one sided discussion almost since it started with those who thought the business plan and entire idea in general was ridiculous. We explained countless reasons for why felt that way whether others agreed or not, but other then being called names, never heard a decent argument why we are wrong.

I am a very open minded person I wish some of you could at least provide some food for thought. If someone would just say, "Yes, but your are ignoring this, this and that and that is why it can work", I would listen and consider their points. I'm sorry. Please don't feel I am attacking you in any way I just would be interested in not just your opinions but why.

Here is why a smaller $$ tour could work in my opinion. He can continue to promote his IPT products, Chalk, Balls, Videos, Tables and Natural Cures. Television will help those ventures as he gets to sneak advertising through anouncements on the commentary banners and such. Sure the cash cow of on line gambling has been curtailed, but not totally shot down either. The reason is that the IPT is international and on line gambling is not illegal in much of the rest of the world. So Ho may still want a piece of the IPT, but now want it for less money than he wanted it for when the whole USA could bet on matches. There is money to be made off of getting pool on ESPN and Versus but it may not be enough to pay out $3,000,000 prize funds. It might be enough to pay out $500,000 to $1,000,000 total purse and who knows it might even get up to the promised levels. I think he was over optimistic, but could have started a solid tour with 1/4 of the prize funds he wound up offering and people would have been glad to have it happening and supported it. But after promising the moon we will have to see if he can still deliver or if the players will support something more down to earth. Most pros say give him a chance, so why should those without one red cent invested keep calling him a POS and such. I still think a scaled back IPT can succeed. People said "I couldn't make a living building cue lathes. They said no way I could make it on mail order. And how many would buy a lathe to repair or build cues? No way I could sell enough to make a living." I heard it all and it took me a while to get there, but I have made a living doing something I enjoy for the last 15 years. I proved them wrong and don't be surprised if Kevin proves some wrong. He also may go broke and never pay out another dime, but I would not count him out yet.

 

[ironman]

Here is why a smaller $$ tour could work in my opinion. He can continue to promote his IPT products, Chalk, Balls, Videos, Tables and Natural Cures. Television will help those ventures as he gets to sneak advertising through anouncements on the commentary banners and such. Sure the cash cow of on line gambling has been curtailed, but not totally shot down either. The reason is that the IPT is international and on line gambling is not illegal in much of the rest of the world. So Ho may still want a piece of the IPT, but now want it for less money than he wanted it for when the whole USA could bet on matches. There is money to be made off of getting pool on ESPN and Versus but it may not be enough to pay out $3,000,000 prize funds. It might be enough to pay out $500,000 to $1,000,000 total purse and who knows it might even get up to the promised levels. I think he was over optimistic, but could have started a solid tour with 1/4 of the prize funds he wound up offering and people would have been glad to have it happening and supported it. But after promising the moon we will have to see if he can still deliver or if the players will support something more down to earth. Most pros say give him a chance, so why should those without one red cent invested keep calling him a POS and such. I still think a scaled back IPT can succeed. People said "I couldn't make a living building cue lathes. They said no way I could make it on mail order. And how many would buy a lathe to repair or build cues? No way I could sell enough to make a living." I heard it all and it took me a while to get there, but I have made a living doing something I enjoy for the last 15 years. I proved them wrong and don't be surprised if Kevin proves some wrong. He also may go broke and never pay out another dime, but I would not count him out yet.

It has just been reported that Ho Internet Casino will close in the next 24 hours. I think {if this is true} Ho is gone.

 

[memikey]

Can't believe this whole "online betting industry as a potential substantial investor in pool" nonsense has ever been given any serious consideration or credibility by anyone,irrespective of whether it was Mr Ho's group or any other online firm

Any online bookie firm (or any offline bookie for that matter) can offer a betting market to existing and new betting clients on any pool event that it wants to,including IPT events,without investing one cent in the pool tour or event concerned and without paying one cent in fees or commissions to the pool tour or event.The notion of an online bookie paying tens of millions to a pool tour is absurd in the extreme.

To take just one example.....hundreds of millions are gambled worldwide every week on the USPGA and European PGA events.The punters placing their telephone or online bets choose their bookie for their golf bets by the standard and reliability of the telephone/internet service offered by the bookie and by the attractiveness of the odds offered in comparison to their bookie competitors.Punters placing cash bets in person in betting offices choose their bookie by the attractiveness of the odds plus the additional consideration of the convenience of the location of their nearest betting office.Very many shrewd punters regularly spread their bets around a number of different bookies again according to the attractiveness of the odds available at the respective firms.In any particular event they might place an online bet on Tiger Woods with Ladbrokes and on Vijay Singh with William Hills as each of those firms offered different odds on those players.They simply choose the most attractive odds.

Not a single bookie pays a cent to the PGA's in the form of sponsorship or in commissions on bets or licensing fees to bet on their events (there are none).Even if they did any of that it would be highly unlikely to in itself increase their share of the golf betting market by even a fraction of 1% as punters money flows into betting firms for the reasons described above and those reasons only.

Fundamentally IPT is no more automatically attractive as an advertising medium to online betting firms than it is to any other potential corporate advertiser. Each make their own commercial decisions on whether purchasing advertising from IPT would be value for money.Given the enduring down market image of pool (whether deserved or not) and given it's essentially minority sport status and given it's total lack of genuine spectator appeal (even to other competitors in the events,most of whom don't even stay to watch the final) it is highly unlikely that any company,even bookmakers with their down market client demographics, would be in any great rush to even buy advertising,never mind invest millions in ownership or sponsorship.

A bookmaking firm might conceivably wish to invest in ownership of a pool tour if they thought it had good stand alone commercial prospects of making money as a pool tour.....but even that makes little sense when they can much more easily make more money by simply taking bets on its events,something they already know they are good at and something they can do without paying a cent in fees to the tour and without risking a cent on the commercial viability or otherwise of the tour.

Sorry this post is so long but it continues to astonish how there can be such nonsense still being given serious consideration by some

 

[Fleece3]

Maybe, just maybe, KT has proven one thing...

NO REAL MONEY CAN BE MADE IN POOL

 

[Stones]

The IPT is more or less a brand new start-up company. Pie in the sky expectations.....and then reality hits, timelines are waaaaayyy outta whack, things change, business plans are scrapped, and new directions are taken. I know. I have worked for start-ups before, (and currently am seeing the gears shift at the one I work at now).

I agree with your view here, and see the obvious misrepresentations. I am just tired of everyone belittling any sort of payment whatsoever when to me, they are obviously trying to make amends.

How about ol' KT doing the CYA legal move. For those of you who have not had your morning coffee, that's...Cover Your A**!