The league player stygma

trob

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well another season of winter 8 ball leagues is getting ready to begin and after listening to some good local players talk at a recent tournament I thought I would throw this out there to you guys...as maybe this is more a york county thing then a national feeling.

People around here feel if you don't gamble you can't play. If your someone like me who just doesn't and has never gotten that high from gambling that it's because you don't have the balls for it. Truth is I have plenty of money...couldn't give a shit about it. I used to be sent to vegas every year for a national meeting and honestly I was bored of the casino in the first 15 minuts.I can play with someone for hours for just shits and giggles and be totally focused and bear down on every shot as if I'm playing for a 100 bucks a rack. Simply because A)I hate to lose and B) I've worked hard to play this game at a high level and I don't know any other way! The only time I play for money is when I'm trying to gauge where I stand against a player who's game I respect and I know I won't get his "A" game unless I throw a few bucks on it.

I really enjoy the league concept. I like the pressure of having my team counting on me to win. I think it takes a special ability to sit for 45 mins. and have to get up to the table cold and find your stroke. I've seen some damn good players who make fun of leagues that it's meaningless fall a part in the playoffs because they're aren't used to playing for a team and having people count on you.

I try to play in a lot of tournaments also. Not because I care about any money I might win..Hell first place could be a trophy or plaque for all I care. I just like the chance to compete against different skill levels.

I'm not busting on anyone who does get off on gambling. If that's what you like that's fine. These people who think this way are free to think what they want. I'm a top 10 shooter in any league I'm in and generally finish in the top group of any tournament I play in. I have friends who have started gambling simply because they want the respect. I couldn't care less..you can think what you want as long as your doing it with rack in your hand while I'm waiting to break I'm happy. lol
 
respect

I agree with you all the way. I use to gamble and enjoyed it but now when I want to start back to playing after being off 20 years I just want ot play. I will play the same gambling or not. I don't have to put food on the table or have sepnding money by gambling. I just like to play and that is what I want to do. For those that like to gamble have fun but don't knock me because I don't need the rush anymore.
Good luck great thread
 
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. Gambling doesn't blow my hair back (if I had any) and I work too hard for my money. I can find other ways to get value for it. I can focus without the preasure of a few bucks on the line.
 
trob said:
Well another season of winter 8 ball leagues is getting ready to begin and after listening to some good local players talk at a recent tournament I thought I would throw this out there to you guys...as maybe this is more a york county thing then a national feeling.

People around here feel if you don't gamble you can't play. If your someone like me who just doesn't and has never gotten that high from gambling that it's because you don't have the balls for it. Truth is I have plenty of money...couldn't give a shit about it. I used to be sent to vegas every year for a national meeting and honestly I was bored of the casino in the first 15 minuts.I can play with someone for hours for just shits and giggles and be totally focused and bear down on every shot as if I'm playing for a 100 bucks a rack. Simply because A)I hate to lose and B) I've worked hard to play this game at a high level and I don't know any other way! The only time I play for money is when I'm trying to gauge where I stand against a player who's game I respect and I know I won't get his "A" game unless I throw a few bucks on it.

I really enjoy the league concept. I like the pressure of having my team counting on me to win. I think it takes a special ability to sit for 45 mins. and have to get up to the table cold and find your stroke. I've seen some damn good players who make fun of leagues that it's meaningless fall a part in the playoffs because they're aren't used to playing for a team and having people count on you.

I try to play in a lot of tournaments also. Not because I care about any money I might win..Hell first place could be a trophy or plaque for all I care. I just like the chance to compete against different skill levels.

I'm not busting on anyone who does get off on gambling. If that's what you like that's fine. These people who think this way are free to think what they want. I'm a top 10 shooter in any league I'm in and generally finish in the top group of any tournament I play in. I have friends who have started gambling simply because they want the respect. I couldn't care less..you can think what you want as long as your doing it with rack in your hand while I'm waiting to break I'm happy. lol
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I agree, I have seen players who would gamble w/ abandon yet they fall apart under the pressure of a team match!

I remember about 8 years ago we recruited this young guy up to our 8-ball team. He was rated a skl 4 but was really improving. He was always in action and had a lot of confidence. We felt he was our secret weapon! We get to our first team tournament with him and put him up in one of the 1st matches (before the pressure gets to bad). Half way thru his match we are laughing at him trying to get him to calm down. He is playing incredibly stupid, his palms are sweating his hands are shaking....he is a train wreck! We could not believe our eyes. LOL

I enjoy playing heads up for a little cash but certainly do not consider myself a gambler. To me there is nothing that compares to your team depending on you to win the last match in a team tournament so the team can advance. You don't won't to disappoint them. The pressure is far more than when it is just your cash on the line.
 
Great post!. You are absolutely correct. People are motivated by different things. For some, it's the thrill of gambling, for some, it's all about the money, for others it's the competition, or performing at a high level, or maybe just because they enjoy the game.

For me, I seem to get my best game when I am in competition, whether it be league or tournament play. I don't gamble, and really have no desire to do so, but I have had a couple of people tell me I play a pretty good game.

We are all different. Ignore the people who say you can't be good if you don't gamble. They don't know what they are talking about.

Steve
 
Here's my 2 cents on this subject but truth be told it isn't worth a plug nickle.
I've stuck to my guns and refused to play for money when I started playing again 4 years ago. I knew I was dead money and I'm cash poor. Had many players tell me it was holding me back. Fact is I put little stock in what other people think.
Lately I've been playing some sets for small, very small with friends. I find it makes me bear down just a little bit more.
The flip side is I don't like taking other peoples hard earned money even if it's chump change and as I said I'm cash poor so I dislike giving mine away.
Recently I had a summer league 9 ball player go off because I beat him a game or 4 on a 8 foot table. He's clearly the better player for now in 9 ball. He started spouting off he could beat me 24-7 and play me for $50 a game any day of the week. I think he eats woof cookies for breakfast, lunch and dinner. My come back was so?
I thought okay lets play some straight pool for $100 a game money on the wire but decided it would prove nothing. Straight pool is my comfort zone. I think I could wear him down playing games to 125.
Back to playing for the pure pleasure of the game. FWIW pool does not define who or what I am.
 
Excellent post. I would have to say I agree with you for the most part since you pretty much exactly described the way I approach the game. I don't care for the $$$ games/gambling too much at all, just not my cup of tea really. Besides, $$$ is too tight right now for me even to be able to put up much if anything on games of pool.

As far as the league concept goes, I've grown tired of the league I've been playing in for the last several years and need a higher caliber league to get me interested again. It was a sanctioned league but about 1/2 the teams and 1/2 the players were in it just for the night out with the brown bottle. We might have had about 10-15% of the players want to and go on to play in the State event.

If I could find a team to play on that had a group of guys that really took their game seriously enough to actually invest some real time and effort trying to maintain and/or improve their game I'd probably get back into leagues again but for the forseeable future I think I'll just look for some decent tournaments to play in a couple times per month, and I'm not talking about the typical small bar tournaments, I'm done with those ............. too many players in those tourneys like the brown bottle and the ego that goes along with it for my tastes any more plus the equipment/tables aren't very good in most of those settings. I may have to travel to Des Moines for some decent tournaments this fall, possibly Cedar Rapids.

Luckily I have some friends with a pool table/room in their basement and I get to play with some higher caliber players on a regular basis there. Plus we have a new Rec. center opening up here in town in 6-8 weeks that is going to have a game room that will include a pool table and I'm working with the Director of the facility trying to get a nice 9-foot table put in there to play/practice on and I'm hoping to set up some clinics and league for kids ages 12-17 there and maybe have a small league set up for 9 ball eventually. The best thing is there will be no brown bottles present and none of the BS that goes along with it. :cool:

I realize that there are a LOT of players that want to play in leagues just for the socialization part of it and have a few drinks/etc., and that's cool and I understand it, it's just not what I personally want.

As my son would say .............. peace.

Trevor
 
Being able to play under pressure is one thing, the stygma is another.

I play league, so do some others I know that used to be hard core tough guy road player types.

For me the stygma attached to league is just the class and respect for the game, or lack thereof.

NOW OBVIOUSLY, I just told you I'm a league player too, so it doesn't apply universally, but IN GENERAL the leagues do not do a good job of fostering any class or sportsmanship IMHO.

The leagues I have seen are more about protecting your sandbagging handicap (even a 3 who is thrilled they are still rated a 2), knowing the rules in detail so they can make themselves an expert by crying about something inane, and of course, smoking with both hands, is if it were the actual competition.
 
Same here. Back when I played in pool halls a lot, I hated it when I was just playing to relax and have a good time, and some macho honcho would strut up to the table with "hey, man, playa for 20 bucks. Come'on, man, you might beat me. Just 20 bucks, come'on, man, let's play for 20 bucks, blahblahblah..." Really pissed me off.
 
Great post; sounds like you're getting what you want out of the game without the need for an additional kick. I feel the exact same way, and am glad to see that many others do as well. I love playing my friends just for fun, but we still play at a high level even when we're messing around, because we hate losing and want to constantly improve our games.

I think we have to separate pool from gambling in order to understand - some people just get high off of gambling, and that means gambling on many things, be it pool, sporting events, cards, etc. Pool just happens to be one of the subjects that attracts them the most.

I have no problems with the money players, as most of them are respectful to what I'm doing (and I to them too, of course), but occasionally you do get the one that wants to talk some smack because you don't want to play them. To me it's just a thin-veiled attempt to get under my skin and force me to make a bad decision. It's just part of the game that we love, I guess...
 
dirtypool40 said:
Being able to play under pressure is one thing, the stygma is another.

I play league, so do some others I know that used to be hard core tough guy road player types.

For me the stygma attached to league is just the class and respect for the game, or lack thereof.

NOW OBVIOUSLY, I just told you I'm a league player too, so it doesn't apply universally, but IN GENERAL the leagues do not do a good job of fostering any class or sportsmanship IMHO.

The leagues I have seen are more about protecting your sandbagging handicap (even a 3 who is thrilled they are still rated a 2), knowing the rules in detail so they can make themselves an expert by crying about something inane, and of course, smoking with both hands, is if it were the actual competition.
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I never play in any leagues or tournaments that have handicap systems. I say if your tired of being beat do what I did ...practice more.
 
I have seen many players lose during league play and then beat that same person all night long just playing for the table after the league play is over. It is the pressure of letting your team mates down.

I am not weathly but not broke either. I can afford to lose but am not a gambler and just like to play for the love of the game. Some people just like to gamble and need that rush. I don't.

Plus I am also another player that doesn't like to take someone elses hard earned money.
 
Great thread! I agree with you even though I do enjoy "light" gambling. I have been around pool players for 20+ years and have gotten sick about hearing gamblers/hustlers and wannabes put down the non-gambler SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WON'T BET! Every insult or berating comment have been directed their way or said about them because the guy won't bet a nickel, which I think it completely wrong. I think these gambling fiends have forgotten that there are people out there that genuinely love the game and don't NEED the added rush of cash on the line to get their adrenaline going.

Truth be told, I play my best when some cash is on the line, but that doesn't mean that if I don't gamble at all I will be quitting pool. Yes, I do complain sometimes in my pool room that there is little or no action, even for a C-player like me, but I don't put down people that refuse to gamble at all. I just give little digs to the people that will bet light but will say no more often than not. Is there any harm in playing $20 sets these days if you're employed? I guess it's a matter of perspective.

Bottom line, the gamblers/hustlers should lay off the non-gamblers...period. You are motivated by different things and just accept that. Just because the non-gambler showed up in a bad-assed car and clearly has money does not mean you deserve to have him lose it to you just because he happens to love playing pool. Don't be bitter because you're still living at home or with a girlfriend that is keeping you afloat...LOL
 
Im not sure about other towns, but in South Florida all the best players are not league players. Not regular league players at least. I think some of the better players play league but usually come to the pool room prepared to play like they are shoring up a Louisiana dam.
 
uwate said:
Im not sure about other towns, but in South Florida all the best players are not league players. Not regular league players at least. I think some of the better players play league but usually come to the pool room prepared to play like they are shoring up a Louisiana dam.
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I'm not saying that all the best play leagues. There are plenty of people who play that are average players who just want a night out. I'm just saying that just because your a league player and not a big gambler doesn't mean you can't roll the rock.
 
trob said:
I'm not saying that all the best play leagues. There are plenty of people who play that are average players who just want a night out. I'm just saying that just because your a league player and not a big gambler doesn't mean you can't roll the rock.
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In my area the big betting guys do play in one league or another. One was even the VNEA singles (national) champ in 9ball for either 07 or 08. Another played Jeanette Lee for a significant amout of scratch when she came thru town.

I'm not big on wagering when playing pool, but will if I feel like playing someone who does. But, truth be told, I'd play them for no cash just as hard as I would for a little something. I realized that I don't get the same game from some without money on the outcome, so I'll bet to get them to "really" play. If it costs me something to get a game - so be it. I want the competition, and if that's the only way I can get it; it's worth the money or risk of it.

I completely understand those who like the competition but aren't willing to bet though. Kudos to you. But if you run out of folks to play, you can usually talk most into playing cheap enough to not kill your wallet, but still enough to hold their attention - just my two cents
 
How about a gambler's perspective?

Personally, I believe that a person can improve their game by performing frequently under pressure. For me, I always felt MORE pressure during a "heads-up" bet, and tournament matches provided less motivation to "grind out" a win. Thats just me though...

Regardless of opinion, this matter will ALWAYS have two opposing sides - "gamblers" and "tournament/league players". I want to point out that it is a somewhat awkward situation to ask a stranger to gamble, and it is fairly common for "non-gamblers" to get upset when asked. For those "non-gamblers" out there, THINK TWICE before you get angry when asked to gamble - that individual took the initiative to ask you in the first place.
 
phillyslim99 said:
Personally, I believe that a person can improve their game by performing frequently under pressure. For me, I always felt MORE pressure during a "heads-up" bet, and tournament matches provided less motivation to "grind out" a win. Thats just me though...

Regardless of opinion, this matter will ALWAYS have two opposing sides - "gamblers" and "tournament/league players". I want to point out that it is a somewhat awkward situation to ask a stranger to gamble, and it is fairly common for "non-gamblers" to get upset when asked. For those "non-gamblers" out there, THINK TWICE before you get angry when asked to gamble - that individual took the initiative to ask you in the first place.
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depends on what you're playing for....if it's enough to keep you from going out (to eat, to play more pool, etc...) the rest of the week or less.....no biggee. If it's enough to miss a house or car payment - no thanks. There's a reason the joke goes; what do you call a poolplayer without a girlfriend?? HOMELESS. lol I'll bet up to the point I'm willing to lose, and if I lose it, chalk it up as entertainment expense. I never CHASE money. If you do, it can become a REAL problem.

And I certainly don't believe my game will improve dramatically by the amount I'm willing to bet. I put pressure on myself to preform well without putting up my life savings...always have, in everything I've done (just the competitive drive I have).
 
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A lot of league players are truly excellent players, and yet the pool world often uses the term "league players" as a way to say someone who takes the game seriously, but can't beat anyone. Basically a synonym for C and D players.

About 2 years ago I stoped playing in the APA 8-ball league I had been in, and started playing a weekly Thursday night 9ball tournament closer to where I live, where there was a lot of matching up for small stakes after the tournament, and a lot of disdain for "league players".

Now, I was not the best player in my 8-ball league. I was in the running for second-best, but the best player in the league could easily give me the 7 and torture me. When I started playing the tournament and small money games, I placed 2nd in the tourney 3 times in a row, then won it once, and won money matching up afterwards each time. If the guy who was the best in that 8-ball league had come down, they would have only had one player in the room that could even compete with him. And yet still, they use the term "league player" to mean "fish". Go figure.

-Andrew
 
trob said:
I never play in any leagues or tournaments that have handicap systems. I say if your tired of being beat do what I did ...practice more.
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I would say that you are very fortunate to be in an area where there are non-handicapped leagues & tournaments. There are not, and have not ever been, AFAIK, any non-handicapped leagues in my area, and even non handicapped tournaments are a rarity. I know that there are some good handicapping systems out there, but it seems that they are all vulnerable to some form of abuse, and watching that abuse occur is a major turnoff for many players. I know several players who wear their sandbagging exploits like a badge of honor, as if the contest is just about who is better at gaming the system. And even in leagues/tournaments where handicap abuse it at a minimum, there is still the factor of the politics and constant griping that seem to be a standard feature of every handicapped event.

As far as the stigma is concerned, I would submit that it is due to that, admittedly small, percentage of players who either a) are gaming the system by sandbagging, or using other underhanded tactics, or b) are not really pool enthusiasts who love the game, but instead just use the pool league as an outlet for drinking/socialization. There is a similar stigma associated with players who only play for money, which is again due to a small percentage of those players who are either always looking to rob someone, or who engage in underhanded gambling tactics like hustling or dumping.

In my personal experience, the best players are the ones who engage in all forms of competitive play, and can find their gear whether they are gambling, playing in a tournament, or participating in a team setting such as a league. Players who want to achieve a higher level of play should, I think, seek out all forms of competition available to them.

Aaron
 
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