The meaning of Call Shot

[crosseyedjoe]

This might be one of things that resulted from the fact that bar-boxes are usually coin operated and you can't retrieve any ball back. Plus most of the time there is no limit on commiting a foul in succession. Ever wonder why bar-box is usually played "kitchen" instead of ball in hand?

Maybe there some pre-cursor to these odd rules that got "lost in translation" that make sense because of the playing condition.

 

[bell]

Call Pocket

Andrew is correct, (although he was once mistaken). I am familiar with the official rules but quickly learned one evening (as I was politely explaining the BCA rulebook) that in the bar environment the rules are determined by the biggest badass dude at the table.

Where does a six hundred pound gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants to.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Calling everything is just an excuse for a looser to fight and not pay. Who wants to argue?

 

[Stones]

I posted this in another thread but it has relevance here.

I played in a bar tourney that was call shot. After losing the finals for calling the 8 ball clean and grazing the long rail, I called the TD over and tried to dicuss it. No luck.

Finally, to get my point across, I set up a couple of shots that required multiple kisses and a rail in a close area. I told him I would call the pocket but he would have to tell me after the shot how it went in.

Of course, I hit them 900 mph and he couldn't tell me what happened. I suggested how much easier it would be to go to call pocket.

The next week, call pocket with the only old rule that the 8 ball had to go in clean, no kisses.

 

[Billy_Bob]

"Call Pocket" and "Call Shot" are the SAME!
(By official rules)

Then there is "Bar rules - call shot". Note that with bar rules, there are no written rules, so make them up / change them as you see fit. If anyone questions your version of the rules, just ask them to show you the rule in writing. (Does not exist!) This is why I don't play by bar rules...


4.2 CALL SHOT
In Call Shot, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent’s right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Bank shots and combination shots are not considered obvious, and care should be taken in calling both the object ball and the intended pocket. When calling the shot, it is never necessary to indicate details such as the number of cushions, banks, kisses, caroms, etc.

Above from...
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml

 

[acedotcom]

Call Shot/Honest Effort

Just wanted to add that down here on the west coast of Florida "Call Shot" is always paired with another nit rule - No Safes/Honest Effort/No Ball-In-Hand. Of course, everyone interprets "Honest Effort" to suit their own needs. For me, it means you have to make an honest effort to make a ball which often leads to me selling out in crucial games. Still, I'd rather play this way than try to get cute with disguised safes. I still win my share of bar tournaments and my reputation as someone who plays fair is still intact.

 

[Vinnie]

Great responses everyone! Apparently the term "Call Pocket" is being used all over the country even though it isn't written in any rule book. One thing is certain... There is a big difference between the "bar" pool culture and the "serious" pool culture. The question is, should there be? Look at bowling, every one uses the rules and same terms there from beginner to pro to weekend drunk. Why can't pool be the same?

Vinnie
--------------
Stroke.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Look at bowling, every one uses the rules and same terms there from beginner to pro to weekend drunk. Why can't pool be the same?

In bowling, everyone uses the same lanes. Bar equipment and pool room equipment different in some fairly relevant ways. I think that goes a long way toward explaining why the rules are different.

But apart from that, there's a big difference in attitude toward the game. For a lot of bar players, bar pool was a rite of passage for them, between watching their fathers and the older men play, to being old enough to play and compete themselves. The oral history tradition of passing down the bar rules from older generation to younger, I think, has significant cultrual significance to a lot of people, even though I'm sure almost none of them think about it that way consciously.

Compare that to the intellectual pursuit of making standardized rules in pseudo-legalese to rule out any ambiguity and leave no room for unfair loopholes, and to them, there's no contest. Bar rules = playing like a man, according to your deeply ingrained definitions of what it is to be a man and the man's honor code for how to compete with fellow men. Standardized rules = some fancy-pants crap that an intellectual came up with in order to make the game more fair for all the pansies.

Honestly I think that's why bar rules will never be abandoned. There's a sense of honor and tradition that a lot of people will never want to leave behind. Now for those of us who weren't raised in that kind of culture where there are detailed and strict unspoken rules of manhood, rules of competition being central to these, or who didn't have bar pool-playing role models who taught us these things from a young age, the official rules just make more sense, plain and simple. But for many people, on a subconscious level, I think it's about something much more deeply ingrained than "making sense".

-Andrew

 

[Big Perm]

But apart from that, there's a big difference in attitude toward the game. For a lot of bar players, bar pool was a rite of passage for them, between watching their fathers and the older men play, to being old enough to play and compete themselves. The oral history tradition of passing down the bar rules from older generation to younger, I think, has significant cultrual significance to a lot of people, even though I'm sure almost none of them think about it that way consciously.

Compare that to the intellectual pursuit of making standardized rules in pseudo-legalese to rule out any ambiguity and leave no room for unfair loopholes, and to them, there's no contest.

But for many people, on a subconscious level, I think it's about something much more deeply ingrained than "making sense".

-Andrew

Good quote and well put.....this is exactly how I was taught....by my friends, and their fathers.....it was important that the ball was pocketed like you intended and seen as appropriate to call kisses and the like....somehow, you were showing you had the skill to separate yourself from the typical slop player and that right of passage stuff you talked about....

When I first played APA, it was wierd and I was worried there would be a bunch of slop, hackers....and that just wasn't true....most of your 5's, 6's, and 7's were good players....as usual, what goes around, comes around....the cream always rises to the top, and it was much easier than fighting over whether or not you accidentally kicked a ball....easy scoring....

Ultimately, as long as everyone is playing by the same rules, and we all know the rules and they don't change during the game , I don't care one way or the other....as long as I win and the money is in my pocket

 

[FLICKit]

Ultimately, as long as everyone is playing by the same rules, and we all know the rules and they don't change during the game , I don't care one way or the other....as long as I win and the money is in my pocket

Agree totally!

And, if you want to be able to maximize your opportunities, then you'd better be able to understand the differences and adjust.


But, if you are playing call ball and pocket because you don't like slop, then it makes sense to use the "case" adjustment. Simply stated, it just means that the shot isn't allowed if it hits any unintended, nonadjacent rails.

Most every experienced player has seen shots where you try to shoot it into a pocket, it rattles, rolls to the opposite side of the table, hits rail(s), and then returns to the original pocket. Most people just settle and excuse it by saying that it doesn't happen very often. And when it does, you hope it doesn't happen on the key ball. But if you're playing call ball and pocket to emphasize skill and reduce luck, this is a simple adjustment to enact.


(P.S. If someone wants to counter with a more extreme example / worst case scenario, and then argue against that with the odd premise that in order to make this adjustment, then you have to account for the extreme one too... Not a very strong stance to argue from.)

 

[MattRDavis]

I've noticed a lot of ambiguity in the definition of this term locally, as such, I'm petitioning the editor of Ambrose Bierce's DEVIL'S DICTIONARY to include a defition of "call shot".

CALL SHOT (adj.) - A term used by barroom pool guru's and table lawyers to indicate that the simple shot you just made was, in fact, "slop" and that you now owe them 1 beer.

 

[FLICKit]

I've noticed a lot of ambiguity in the definition of this term locally, as such, I'm petitioning the editor of Ambrose Bierce's DEVIL'S DICTIONARY to include a defition of "call shot".

CALL SHOT (adj.) - A term used by barroom pool guru's and table lawyers to indicate that the simple shot you just made was, in fact, "slop" and that you now owe them 1 beer.

As a result, BCA has defined that CALL SHOT is equal to CALL POCKET.

 

[tk_it_ez]

Great responses everyone! Apparently the term "Call Pocket" is being used all over the country even though it isn't written in any rule book. One thing is certain... There is a big difference between the "bar" pool culture and the "serious" pool culture. The question is, should there be? Look at bowling, every one uses the rules and same terms there from beginner to pro to weekend drunk. Why can't pool be the same?

Vinnie
--------------
Stroke.

If that is the case why is it that most of the time the over the line foul is not called in noncompetitive bowling? And how many actual rules are there in bowling? I don't know, do you?

I don't understand why everyone starts bi**hing so much about the different "rules" for pool. As far as the "official" rules, is there really any such thing as the official rules. Is it BCA, APA, Bar, local, state???? Good luck getting a group of pool players from around the country to agree on anything even if they are using the same rule book. Then it will be arguing about the interpritation of the rule.

The NFL has their set of rules, is it the only way to play football? No. Little league, highschool, college, semipro and the Canadians have different rules even though it is basically the same game. Does an NFL player get to go to the Canadian league and tell them how to play? No. It is either STFU and play by our rules or get the hell out.

As far as calling the shot vs call pocket, this arguement always gets me a little bit. It always seems like the better shooters should be the ones that want to have to call the entire shot, not just the pocket. Instead it is the pool hall shooters that make fun of the bar players because they are playing by a more strick set of rules regarding legally making a ball. Are you guys not capabile of calling the entire shot or are you just too lazy? To me, it seems like having to call the entire shot would make you a better player.

Most bar players are there to have a few beers and have a good time. They probably couldn't care less if the "official rules" guys are there or not. If you are not going to have fun playing by their rules, then don't play. It is as simple as that. But it is still pool, just not the kind that you are used to.

Nathan <--will play by your rules, just tell me what they are before we start

 

[Maniac]

Are you guys not capabile of calling the entire shot or are you just too lazy? To me, it seems like having to call the entire shot would make you a better player.

You mean to say that if I have a table-length shot where the cueball and the object ball are both no more than a couple of inches off the rail (and the two balls no more than six or eight inches apart) I should have to "call" whether or not the object ball is gonna make contact with the rail before it goes into the pocket??? It might, it might not. To have to exactly "call" this type of shot is asinine. If someone argues that there could be exceptions for these kind of shots (as I'm sure somebody would), it poses the problem of "where do we draw the line?".
Let's face it, there are some shots that are gonna come up in games where a ball may or may not make contact with a cushion or a ball may or may not kiss off another ball that is all but blocking a pocket. Your talking in millimeters here. Too much detail is gonna make for a game fraught with arguments and disagreements over silly $hit like the scenerio mentioned above.

Maniac

 

[Cameron Smith]

To be honest I am not too concerned about playing under these rules for a couple of reasons. First I generally don't bump the balls around that much (I suspect most of my fellow posters shoot as accurately). Secondly, most people that insist on playing under these rules don't shoot well enough for them to gain much of any advantage through screwy rules.

I think the best player I have shot against who insisted on call everything, was maybe a strong C player. All I will say is that I won, and it wasn't close.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

I think this "bar-rule" is really the difference between the mindset of an amateur-level and semi/pro-level player.

For most amateurs, their games are still concentrated more on trying to pocket the object ball thus too much attention is given to pocketing the object ball while most semi/pro players are more concerned about controlling the cue ball or playing position and pocketing the object ball is just a way to get to the next position.

Furthermore, amatuer-level players adhere to this "bar-rule" because of the inherent acceptance of their skill level, no lucky kisses and such. When you are playing with people in higher skill level, you are given the benefit of the doubt that those accidental kisses or rail-rolls is really your intent. Your opponent will assume that is how you think the best way to play the shot to get a better position on the next shot.

The shift on the player's playing concern is really what's fueling this debate.

 

[tk_it_ez]

You mean to say that if I have a table-length shot where the cueball and the object ball are both no more than a couple of inches off the rail (and the two balls no more than six or eight inches apart) I should have to "call" whether or not the object ball is gonna make contact with the rail before it goes into the pocket??? It might, it might not. To have to exactly "call" this type of shot is asinine. If someone argues that there could be exceptions for these kind of shots (as I'm sure somebody would), it poses the problem of "where do we draw the line?".
Let's face it, there are some shots that are gonna come up in games where a ball may or may not make contact with a cushion or a ball may or may not kiss off another ball that is all but blocking a pocket. Your talking in millimeters here. Too much detail is gonna make for a game fraught with arguments and disagreements over silly $hit like the scenerio mentioned above.

Maniac

With that shot on the rail I totally agree with you. I don't think you should have to call something like that and if that is the way they were playing I probably wouldn't play. I shoot to have fun and that would not be fun for me. That is kind of my point.

But I have no problem with playing that you must call it if a ball is going to kiss off of another ball. Can it sometimes be millimeters? Yes. But isn't this more of a game for the sniper compared to the gernade launcher? If someone calls a bank and the shot is 6 inches off line but then kisses off another ball that redirects it into the pocket I can see why people say that would be a sloppy shot and the shooter should not be rewarded with another shot. The first thing people are going to say now is a "good" shot would not be off by 6 inches, alright lets say the shot is off by 1 inch, or 1/2 inch. The point is still the same.

All I was trying to say is that just because someone shoots by one set of rules, it does not mean that another set of rules can not be fun. It doesn't mean that it is no longer pool. I play this game because I enjoy it. I have been places where they play by such crazy rules or the rules kept changing so much that it wasn't fun so guess what, I didn't bother with it. It was not worth the agravation. But calling off another ball seems like a reasonable request. Most of the time the people that bi**h about the rules the most don't really seem to enjoy the game anymore. Instead it has become more of an obssesion instead of recreation. The day this game is no longer fun for me is the day my cue becomes firewood.(or I at least sell it )

It always cracks me up when everyone comes on here and tells about the stupid rules that they have in the bars and then in the next sentence will say there are never any decent shots in bars anyway. What does that mean? You went to a bar and shot right? I guess you are saying that you are not any good?

I play mostly in bars and I am not a great shot but I can usually hold my own, and guess what, I USUALLY HAVE A GOOD TIME. That is why I play and I bet that is also why most of the other people in bars shoot. If you want the stuffy, serious feeling while you shoot, don't go to a bar and you won't be disappointed. If you want to hang out, relax, bullsh**, and shoot a couple of games by "non-official bar rules" then come on down, the first beer is on me. (second is on you though )

Nathan

 

[FLICKit]

tk

The tough part about ball hits is that it can get very difficult to define clearly and concisely for the range of possible situations. If there can be a very succinct rule which doesn't open up other issues, then it should be considered.

Scenarios:
If it goes off a ball, that you called, and it goes in then you'd continue to shoot. What if you call off a ball, but it goes in cleanly? Would this be a foul? Can you say it might go off of that one?

What if it barely nicks another ball on the way to the pocket? Then that'd be a foul? Seems like it'd open up a number of potential argumentative situations of did it really hit it or not. Do you now have to call a ref over for every shot, which would potentially hit another ball?

If the ricochet is going to head towards two balls, do you have to call exactly which ball it hits? If it might actually hit both balls, do you have to specify both balls and the exact order (off the 15 then the 13)? So, if it only hits one of them, then you lose your turn since you didn't call it that way?

What if it nicks a ball so slightly that it rocks but doesn't move? Foul or not?

What if the cue ball might nick one of your type of balls, and the object ball might nick other balls? Do you and your opponent have to microscopically analyze every aspect of the shot? If the two players don't agree on what happened on the shot will that open up more conflict? Do you call the ref over to try to discern, even if the shot has already been taken? Do you try to manufacture what happened, or do you just assume that the call goes to the shooter?

That's alotta questions...
The concern is just that it raises too many questions and possible conflicts. If these can be ironed out smoothly and clearly, then feel free to clarify.

 

[ScottW]

Typical bar call shot rules are like that. If you call it clean and it goes off a ball, you give up your turn. If you call it off a ball and it goes clean, you give up your turn. Worse if its the 8-ball - you lose even though you put it in the right pocket. That's happened to me before in little local bar tournaments. So annoying!

 

[crosseyedjoe]

I think you only have to call the path (kisses, caroms and such) of the object ball to the pocket, and you stop at that and STICK to that pattern. The later consequences of the shot is not of any concern as long as it doesn't affect the "path" that you specified.

Minor angle rail shot either by the object ball or the cue ball doesn't have to be called.