The meaning of Call Shot

[Vinnie]

If that is the case why is it that most of the time the over the line foul is not called in noncompetitive bowling? ...

The fact is that you knew that there is a rule in bowling concerning a foul if you go over the line. Does that make you a serious bowler? I think that everyone how plays bowling knows that rule. Choosing not to follow a well known rule is not the same as changing the meaning of a term. I agree that different sets of rules exist for pool. I was only wondering why there seems to be different definitions for the same term.

...I play mostly in bars and I am not a great shot but I can usually hold my own, and guess what, I USUALLY HAVE A GOOD TIME.

I too play in bars. There are no pool halls in may area. I have fun too. However, when I am out playing for fun, I still talk to my opponent and come to some kind of agreement before the game as to what rules we will be following. I've seen people who will throw a fit for nothing more than to win the table. The point I was making is that if I agree on "Call Shot" rules and then someone says "Hey! you didn't call it off the one!" who is right?

Vinnie
-----------
Stroke.

 

[rackmsuckr]

I alluded to the tournament that plays "Call Shot" rules. In our area, call shot and call pocket are 2 distinctly different things, BCA rules notwithstanding.

Here are 3 examples of how nitty Call Shot rules are and why it is NOT the better player who plays this way.

1. Mike broke and ran the table. Nicked the ball on the way in with the 8 against the TD. TD shakes his hand and says great run. TD scores the win for himself!

START(
%AR5S2%B_4S9%CF8F5%DT9L5%EO3W9%Fm3M7%GI6U3%HY5G0%Po8I1%W[2G4
%Xn8I0%YH1E3%ZX5G0
)END

2. I was forced to bank this ball for the win. Lost because it hit rail going in.

START(
%AJ1M3%B_4S9%CE0Y9%DV1W0%EO3W9%FD7T2%Gn1O6%HM8Q4%PQ4J1%WI5Z8
%XQ0J6%YC6E7%ZI1Z8
)END

3. Same here.

START(
%AJ1M3%Bf0Z4%CE0Y9%DV1W0%EO3W9%FD7T2%Gf9Y6%Hr3J4%PI2O4%Wq3K7
%XI9O4%Ys1F3%Zr5I4
)END


Would you even attempt some of these shots if you knew there was a 50/50 chance that it would not go in clean? Take your chances if they have balls tied up and just jaw the ball if it meant loss of game otherwise?

As far as the "Honest Attempt" rules, that is just sickening. You get punished by their fouls. They're pushing the ball to anywhere on the table or intentionally scratching is BS!

 

[tk_it_ez]

tk

The tough part about ball hits is that it can get very difficult to define clearly and concisely for the range of possible situations. If there can be a very succinct rule which doesn't open up other issues, then it should be considered.

Scenarios:
If it goes off a ball, that you called, and it goes in then you'd continue to shoot. What if you call off a ball, but it goes in cleanly? Would this be a foul? Can you say it might go off of that one?

What if it barely nicks another ball on the way to the pocket? Then that'd be a foul? Seems like it'd open up a number of potential argumentative situations of did it really hit it or not. Do you now have to call a ref over for every shot, which would potentially hit another ball?

If the ricochet is going to head towards two balls, do you have to call exactly which ball it hits? If it might actually hit both balls, do you have to specify both balls and the exact order (off the 15 then the 13)? So, if it only hits one of them, then you lose your turn since you didn't call it that way?

What if it nicks a ball so slightly that it rocks but doesn't move? Foul or not?

What if the cue ball might nick one of your type of balls, and the object ball might nick other balls? Do you and your opponent have to microscopically analyze every aspect of the shot? If the two players don't agree on what happened on the shot will that open up more conflict? Do you call the ref over to try to discern, even if the shot has already been taken? Do you try to manufacture what happened, or do you just assume that the call goes to the shooter?

That's alotta questions...
The concern is just that it raises too many questions and possible conflicts. If these can be ironed out smoothly and clearly, then feel free to clarify.

If you are playing that you must call any ball that the object ball comes in contact with then YES, you must call those. If you call off a ball and it goes in clean then you lose your shot. Did it hit the ball, did you call it? Sounds pretty simple to me. Can there be arguments when playing by BCA rules, YES.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to play call ball and pocket. I am only saying that it is possible to play by other rules and still have fun. You keep bringing up calling a ref. How many refs do you usually see hanging out in your local bars unless there is a tournament going on?

If the whole idea of call shot is too complex for everyone in comparison to call pocket, why don't we just go a step further and make it so that you don't actually have to call anything. Hit a ball in and you go again. Slop away. Hell, lets go ahead and get rid of the rule that it has to be one of yours (8-ball) or the next one in numerical order (9-ball). We can make sure that there are no arguments over if it was a "legal shot", as long as a ball drops it was legal.

It's not that calling off of a ball is a bad rule, it's just not what everyone here is used to it. If you want to play in bars then you just have to suck it up and adjust your game. Use the rules to your advantage instead of b**ching and moaing about them. I doubt anyone is being forced to shoot.

People should somewhat know what to expect when they go to shoot at a bar. Are they going to play by BCA rules? Not most of the time. So why is it such a shock when there is a different set of rules in a bar?

I have a good time shooting in the bars and most of the time I can play by the "house" rules without a problem. But I am there to have a good time, a few drinks and hopefully win enough to pay my bar tab and leave with a few extra bucks in my pocket. Now if the rules keep changing that is another story. That's when you put your cue away and concentrate on the drinking.

Just my 2 cents

Nathan

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Intentional scratch (just hitting the cue ball to the pocket without even trying to hit the object ball), I hate that specially when playing "kitchen".

 

[rackem]

8 Clean why?

Typical bar call shot rules are like that. If you call it clean and it goes off a ball, you give up your turn. If you call it off a ball and it goes clean, you give up your turn. Worse if its the 8-ball - you lose even though you put it in the right pocket. That's happened to me before in little local bar tournaments. So annoying!

I don't mind playing bar rules at all. Calling kisses or caroms. Soft rail rubs in most places do not need to be called and should not. What bothers me is the places that don't allow you to call the kiss when shooting the 8. Really silly why do the rules change just because its the 8? You are still calling the shot.

 

[tk_it_ez]

Would you even attempt some of these shots if you knew there was a 50/50 chance that it would not go in clean? Take your chances if they have balls tied up and just jaw the ball if it meant loss of game otherwise?

:

I will admit that I can't take a look at your example tables right now. I will when I get home.

But my question is are they playing by the same rules?

If you know what rules you are playing by, like call off another ball, then you have to play the table with that in consideration. Maybe run the table in a different order or something. I will use those rules to my advantage when thinking about my opponents leaves. Isn't that kind of like playing strategy differently if you are playing with the three fouls is a lose rule? That is one that seems to come and go without the "serious" players throwing a fit about it.

Nathan

 

[tk_it_ez]

I don't mind playing bar rules at all. Calling kisses or caroms. Soft rail rubs in most places do not need to be called and should not. What bothers me is the places that don't allow you to call the kiss when shooting the 8. Really silly why do the rules change just because its the 8? You are still calling the shot.

I don't think that is what Scott was talking about. He didn't call the 8 off the other ball and it hit the ball and then sunk. By those rules it's the same as hitting the 8 in the wrong pocket or sinkinig it in the right pocket and scratching.

I agree that the rules should not change just for the 8. But it shouldn't be that big of a problem if both players know the rule and it stays the same from game to game. Kind of like bank the 8. As long as you know it is bank the 8 and play position for it then it's not that bad. If you don't know and run down to the 8 with a nice easy little shot and then find out it is bank the 8, that's another story.

Nathan

 

[dabarbr]

Yeah, I do not recognize that bs with calling banks, caroms, kisses, etc. If I say 14-ball in the corner and it goes in the corner, I'm shooting again! I'd sooner enlighten my opponent than concede my turn.

A good number of years ago I found myself in a bar in the White Mountains of Arizona in a small town called Sholow. It was late and near closing time and I happen to stumble into a $40.00 challange match with four people in it. After winning a couple of games I had a situation where the 3 ball was wired up on a kiss to a corner pocket but it was surrounded by a lot of balls. I needed to hit the 6 ball with a lot of mustard to pocket the 3 ball. I called the shot and it hit the pocket clean but then that started an argument. He could not believe someone could call such a shot with so many things happening. A real player would have know that it was a dead shot and would have acknowledged a good call. Well I didn't want to give up my turn because it was getting late and with time running out I may not get to the table again. Could have been the difference of maybe $300. Well being the stranger I was forced to go to the rail. There was no enlightening to be done here. I sat down and never got to the table again. Call shot stinks. But if thats all there is you gotta play.

 

[cheesemouse]

Back in my hustling era days I used to love the goofy bar rules. It just meant it was going to be really easy to rob the pigeons using their own local rules against them. The more chicken $hit the rules the lower the skill level of the players seemed to be the golden rule. It is like taking candy from babies.....LOL