Im refering to the article by Tom Simpson in the May/June Indide Pool Mag, page 26. Has anyone else who's read this article come away with disbelief as I did? Mr Simpson says top spin doesn't exist, that overspin means the cue ball would be spinning faster than it is rolling and THAT DOESN"T HAPPEN! Does anyone believe as I do that Mr simpson needs to make a distinction between natural follow and force follow, where "over spin" does indeed occur. I belive these written remarks coming from a "BCA Master Instuctor" are misleading and ambiguous. Comments anyone?
The Myth of Top Spin???
- Thread starter Curt
- Start date
I've seen video on this before...somewhere...I recall that there is some overspin but it is minor. Koehler also says there is in Science of Pocket Billiards.
However, articles like that which do not include links to slo mo video should be disregarded as idle speculation...of which there are mountains in the pool world.
"Force follow" has noting to do with overspin. As the name implies, it has to do with the force of the shot such that when to CB strikes an OB with forward roll...it stops at impact and then proceeds forward again due to forward momentum.
The "spin" is a function of the stopped CB regaining forward roll.
The above is my understanding.
Regards,
Jim
The CB become airborne due to the downward moment of force related to the high tip contact so the CB retains the overspin a little longer but by the time it has impacted the CB it has almost certainly resumed normal roll.
However, articles like that which do not include links to slo mo video should be disregarded as idle speculation...of which there are mountains in the pool world.
"Force follow" has noting to do with overspin. As the name implies, it has to do with the force of the shot such that when to CB strikes an OB with forward roll...it stops at impact and then proceeds forward again due to forward momentum.
The "spin" is a function of the stopped CB regaining forward roll.
The above is my understanding.
Regards,
Jim
The CB become airborne due to the downward moment of force related to the high tip contact so the CB retains the overspin a little longer but by the time it has impacted the CB it has almost certainly resumed normal roll.
av84fun said:
This post is even more misleading than the quoted article. "Force Follow" is really a misnomer. It has everything to do with spin. This is why a ball hit hard with center english won't follow much at all (any follow would be due to the sliding CB picking up a bit of forward spin from the cloth).
In a straight-on topspin shot, the CB stops at impact for an infinitesimal time, and the remaining topspin on the CB then causes it to gain forward momentum again. It doesn't proceed forward "due to forward momentum", because that initial forward momentum is almost totally* transferred to the OB during the collision. Rather, the angular momentum of the spinning CB is converted into new forward momentum due to the friction against the cloth. This effect can be achieved even with shots hit with very little force. It seems like someone started saying "force follow" just to describe "follow" shots that are hit hard. They are in principle no different from a softly-hit rolling follow shot.
* - some of the CB's initial forward momentum is transferred into sound and heat during the collision.
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I can hit a stripe with top spin and it clearly has more spin on it than roll after contact... No need for slo motion to see it...
Maybe I am missing the point of the article...
Maybe I am missing the point of the article...
CB would never travel past OB if it didn't. Must be easy to get the BCA instructor cards!
Curt said:
I've read the comments and at first I agreed with them, but after re-reading the OP, I think what Tom Simpson might be saying is something along the lines that when you hit it high, the ball does not spin significantly faster than it is traveling. If you hit it harder, the ball will travel faster, and certainly have more spin after impact, but I think all he's saying is that it doesn't accelerate into the object ball. I'm not sure he's right, but I'm not so sure he's wrong either. Does this make sense?
Curt said:
Sounds right to me. From what I understand, he is saying that when you strike the top of the cueball you cannot make it spin faster than it's rolling... when you want the cueball to follow more you hit it harder right? When you strike the top of the cueball harder it happens to be rolling forward as fast as it's moving which imparts more follow. If you strike the center of the cueball with the same force it won't follow as far because it isn't spinning as fast as it's rolling.
Great explanation!juanbond said:
Hitting at just about 2/5'ths of the cueball's radius above center produces immediate roll. Since you can hit to about 1/2R above center without miscuing, "overspin" can happen, even without the cueball first colliding with an object ball. We're talking about the actual contact point, not where the center of the shaft is pointing.
Bob J. has confirmed that "overspinning sidespin" occurs on his tapes of "The Jacksonville Project". Many points on the side of the cueball opposite the side the english was applied move backward relative to the table (when hit with extreme english).
Jim
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There is no such thing as top spin
There is no such thing as top spin. The monster force follow shots you sometimes see players execute and that were occasionally on display recently with the Legends of Pool on TV are just optical illusions.
As a corollary of this, there is no such thing as bottom spin and draw doesn't actually exist. The cue ball reversing direction and traveling table length or more is just the natural reaction to hitting another ball.
From these basic statements we can also deduce that side spin as something that affects the path of the cue ball does not exist also. Therefore there is no reason to ever hit a cue ball anywhere but dead center.
For my next discussion I will prove that the world is flat. At least I would but Mr. Wilson has rather pointedly suggested I refrain from off topic posts!
Hu
There is no such thing as top spin. The monster force follow shots you sometimes see players execute and that were occasionally on display recently with the Legends of Pool on TV are just optical illusions.
As a corollary of this, there is no such thing as bottom spin and draw doesn't actually exist. The cue ball reversing direction and traveling table length or more is just the natural reaction to hitting another ball.
From these basic statements we can also deduce that side spin as something that affects the path of the cue ball does not exist also. Therefore there is no reason to ever hit a cue ball anywhere but dead center.
For my next discussion I will prove that the world is flat. At least I would but Mr. Wilson has rather pointedly suggested I refrain from off topic posts!
Hu
Please don't make ridiculous statements that you know nothing about. 
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Jason Robichaud said:
Sorry...I don't agree with you and neither does Robert Byrne...unless he has changed his mind without my having noticed it.
But first, there may be a definitional problem. What I was referring to is OVERSPIN which means that the CB is spining at a greater RPM than would be explained by natural roll.
It also means rolling forward but with slipping between ball and cloth.
There is SOME but very little OVERSPIN imposed by hitting high on the CB and what there is, is overcome by friction LONG before a "force follow" shot hit...say with 3 diamonds of CB/OB separation will retain any OVERSPIN.
Another source of misunderstanding is that because the CB stops momentarily and then resumes its forward motion due to momentum...THEN it has momentary OVERSPIN (slippage on the cloth) but NOT because it had any OVERSPIN prior to impact.
Bob or Dr. Dave can explain the physics of overspin after cb impact...I can only do so in layman's terms in the the CB's forward motion that resumes after momentary impact has sufficient POWER due to the force of the shot to overcome friction with the cloth and spin more that forward roll would explain.
Regards,
Jim
Robert Byrne
If a cueball rolling naturally down the table without sidespin or slide strikes an object ball full in the face, the impact will stop it dead in its tracks for an instant--then the forward rotation of the cueball (which is reduced but not eliminated by the impact) will cause the cueball to move forward, "following" the object ball.
When striking the cueball with the cuetip, a hit half-way from the center to the top (actually 70% of the diameter from the bottom) on the vertical axis will cause the cueball to start with natural roll immediately, that is, with no slipping between the ball and the cloth. Hitting the cueball anywhere from that point to the center will create varying amounts of slipping between the cueball and the cloth until friction eliminates it and the ball is rolling naturally.
While it is possible to hit the cueball slightly higher than 70% of its diameter without miscuing, it is impossible to demonstrate in practice that doing so will create extra topspin. In other words, for all practical purposes it is impossible to strike a cueball so high that it begins its movement with more rotation than natural roll. The length of the follow after the cueball hits an object ball, then, (provided the 70% point is where the tip hits the cueball) depends only on how hard the cueball is struck.
As an aside, the term "force follow," is simply a follow shot struck hard. "Force follow" is not something different from a high-speed follow shot.
http://www.byrne.org/pool/tips/09-1998.html
But first, there may be a definitional problem. What I was referring to is OVERSPIN which means that the CB is spining at a greater RPM than would be explained by natural roll.
It also means rolling forward but with slipping between ball and cloth.
There is SOME but very little OVERSPIN imposed by hitting high on the CB and what there is, is overcome by friction LONG before a "force follow" shot hit...say with 3 diamonds of CB/OB separation will retain any OVERSPIN.
Another source of misunderstanding is that because the CB stops momentarily and then resumes its forward motion due to momentum...THEN it has momentary OVERSPIN (slippage on the cloth) but NOT because it had any OVERSPIN prior to impact.
Bob or Dr. Dave can explain the physics of overspin after cb impact...I can only do so in layman's terms in the the CB's forward motion that resumes after momentary impact has sufficient POWER due to the force of the shot to overcome friction with the cloth and spin more that forward roll would explain.
Regards,
Jim
Robert Byrne
If a cueball rolling naturally down the table without sidespin or slide strikes an object ball full in the face, the impact will stop it dead in its tracks for an instant--then the forward rotation of the cueball (which is reduced but not eliminated by the impact) will cause the cueball to move forward, "following" the object ball.
When striking the cueball with the cuetip, a hit half-way from the center to the top (actually 70% of the diameter from the bottom) on the vertical axis will cause the cueball to start with natural roll immediately, that is, with no slipping between the ball and the cloth. Hitting the cueball anywhere from that point to the center will create varying amounts of slipping between the cueball and the cloth until friction eliminates it and the ball is rolling naturally.
While it is possible to hit the cueball slightly higher than 70% of its diameter without miscuing, it is impossible to demonstrate in practice that doing so will create extra topspin. In other words, for all practical purposes it is impossible to strike a cueball so high that it begins its movement with more rotation than natural roll. The length of the follow after the cueball hits an object ball, then, (provided the 70% point is where the tip hits the cueball) depends only on how hard the cueball is struck.
As an aside, the term "force follow," is simply a follow shot struck hard. "Force follow" is not something different from a high-speed follow shot.
http://www.byrne.org/pool/tips/09-1998.html
juanbond said:
ShootingArts said:There is no such thing as top spin. The monster force follow shots you sometimes see players execute and that were occasionally on display recently with the Legends of Pool on TV are just optical illusions.
As a corollary of this, there is no such thing as bottom spin and draw doesn't actually exist. The cue ball reversing direction and traveling table length or more is just the natural reaction to hitting another ball.
From these basic statements we can also deduce that side spin as something that affects the path of the cue ball does not exist also. Therefore there is no reason to ever hit a cue ball anywhere but dead center.
For my next discussion I will prove that the world is flat. At least I would but Mr. Wilson has rather pointedly suggested I refrain from off topic posts!
Hu
Hu, do you think it is possible to create as many RPMs on a CB when using follow as when using draw...assuming the pace of the shots are the same?
Regards,
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by juanbond
...In a straight-on topspin shot, the CB stops at impact for an infinitesimal time, and the remaining topspin on the CB then causes it to gain forward momentum again. It doesn't proceed forward "due to forward momentum", because that initial forward momentum is almost totally* transferred to the OB during the collision.
I appreciate pure scientific explanations...I genuinely do...but they are not always useful in the act of playing pool.
It is not important to the typical player...including World Champions...to even know the difference between "forward momentum" and "angular momentum" and I suspect that few champions can explain the difference.
In fact, the CB resumes its speed AS A RESULT of the forward momentum imposed on it...because I guarantee you that if there was no forward momentum, it would remain still would have never hit the OB in the first place.
Rather, the angular momentum of the spinning CB is converted into new forward momentum due to the friction against the cloth. This effect can be achieved even with shots hit with very little force. It seems like someone started saying "force follow" just to describe "follow" shots that are hit hard. They are in principle no different from a softly-hit rolling follow shot.
* - some of the CB's initial forward momentum is transferred into sound and heat during the collision.
AGREED.
Right. That may be the tape I recalled seeing but I think you will agree that such OVERSPIN dissipates very quickly and is not a factor in the so-called force follow shot except possibly on rare occasions.
Wouldn't you agree?
Regards,
Jim
Originally Posted by juanbond
...In a straight-on topspin shot, the CB stops at impact for an infinitesimal time, and the remaining topspin on the CB then causes it to gain forward momentum again. It doesn't proceed forward "due to forward momentum", because that initial forward momentum is almost totally* transferred to the OB during the collision.
I appreciate pure scientific explanations...I genuinely do...but they are not always useful in the act of playing pool.
It is not important to the typical player...including World Champions...to even know the difference between "forward momentum" and "angular momentum" and I suspect that few champions can explain the difference.
In fact, the CB resumes its speed AS A RESULT of the forward momentum imposed on it...because I guarantee you that if there was no forward momentum, it would remain still would have never hit the OB in the first place.
Rather, the angular momentum of the spinning CB is converted into new forward momentum due to the friction against the cloth. This effect can be achieved even with shots hit with very little force. It seems like someone started saying "force follow" just to describe "follow" shots that are hit hard. They are in principle no different from a softly-hit rolling follow shot.
* - some of the CB's initial forward momentum is transferred into sound and heat during the collision.
AGREED.
Jal said:
Right. That may be the tape I recalled seeing but I think you will agree that such OVERSPIN dissipates very quickly and is not a factor in the so-called force follow shot except possibly on rare occasions.
Wouldn't you agree?
Regards,
Jim
Bob Byrne presents a test to see whether you can get follow that is more than the cue ball rolling smoothly on the table. I think it's in his "Advanced Technique" book. For most situations, including the test he presents, it is impossible to get "excess" top spin on the cue ball.Curt said:
However....
It is possible to hit the cue ball so far off-center that the some part of the cue ball is actually moving backwards as the cue ball moves away down the table. This is shown on the Jacksonville Project video, which is available on azbtv.com, but I can't find the sequence right now. As I recall, the spin observed was about 115% of the equivalent of smooth rolling.
In general, playing such shots is not practical because any excess follow will be lost on the way to the object ball, there is a serious likelihood of a miscue when you cue that far from center, and because hitting farther off-center gets less power into the cue ball, you actually end up with fewer RPMs by the time the cue ball gets to the object ball.
A related puzzler: on a freight train going east at 60MPH, there is always a part of the train that is moving west. What is that part? Estimate how fast it is moving west.
Curt said:
Just to be clear (hopefully) I disagree with Mr. Simpson on that point and think it is unfortunate for him that such a remark (if that is in fact, what he said) was published.
But I assume his POINT was that TOP SPIN/OVER SPIN is not a factor in the re-acceleration of the CB after impact and to that extent he is correct.
Regards,
Jim
Yes, as Byrne would agree.
And so you have to hit higher than this to get overspin...
And this is what Tom Simpson is talking about. 1/2 radius (maximum topspin tip offset) is only about 1/8" higher on the CB than 2/5 radius (natural forward roll). So you have to hit the CB right at the miscue limit to get noticable overspin and that's not easy. Most players pretty much never hit that far from centerball because the risk of miscuing is too great. And even if they do the friction of the cloth almost immediately rubs the overspin off (usually within inches). So Tom Simpson and Bob Byrne are right that for practical purposes there's no such thing as overspin.
pj
chgo
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Sorry, but this is simply wrong. As has already been correctly described, the CB stops dead (for practical purposes)* when it hits an OB squarely and only its forward spin propels it forward again. This is very well known. As has also been suggested, simply hit the CB into an OB squarely without forward roll (a stun shot) to see that this is true.
pj
chgo
*...and assuming it's about the same weight as the OB...
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