The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

[John Barton]

Meucci vs Scruggs? Sure. Here's the deal, though. If it's "the cue", you get to use a brand new Elkmaster tip on the Scruggs that I install fresh to jump. I get to use the Meucci, except with no tip. Do we have a bet? The cue hasn't changed - just the end of it.

Like I said, the cue hasn't changed. If it's the cue, you'll man up.

No silly rabbit tricks are for kids. We can put brand new Le Pro tips on both cues and go to it.

How you can contradict yourself in the same sentence without cracking yourself up is beyond me - um let's change the cue and then say it's not changed......duh

La la la la - oh Shawn how sad it is to live in the land of make believe and try to dive into the real world - reality just slaps you hard.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Well then..how can something that was designed to make a certain shot easier to do be as tough to do as kicking??? Maybe someone should invent a kick cue.....

Southpaw

I never said it was as tough or tougher then kicking, looking back at the thread I dont see where anyone said that. I see where someone said it requires a certain skillset like kicking does, but they make no mention on the comparison of the skill set.

Kick cue is your idea, if it makes kick shots easier and falls into the rules, I would get one just so I dont have to suffer and whine when someone uses one on me.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I lived in New York for over 10 years, and know the area and general mentality well. I know plenty of socialistic, liberal Republicans from New York, not just Democrats. Your thought process in regards to rule making is typical of the socialistic, New York liberals I know so well. Not trying to be offensive, just saying what I think, and did not intend to offend you. As you took offense, I apologize. Nevertheless, I didn't bring patriotism into the question, you did. I have no reason to doubt your patriotism, and expect you are just as patriotic, if not more so, than I am.

Perhaps what I experienced in New York opened my eyes to a different way of seeing the world. I well remember the electricity in the City, the electricity of big ideas, and the way those of different provenance were often looked down upon. That pseudo-elite way of being may win elections, and perhaps even an argument here and there, but doesn't always persuade those who are targeted.

To people not from New York, many New Yorkers are brash. Can't say as I agree with that, but many people hold that view.

Jude, it's been a pleasure debating these ideas with you.

Flex

Then please do me a favor and respond to me, to my posts, to my ideas and not where I'm from or how you think I may vote. If we can keep it at that, I'll accept your apology.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Jump rods were not pool cues. They were suitable for making a ball hop and that was it. Jump CUES are instruments which all the player to add spin, control speed, and trajectory. Today's jump CUES are made to the specifications of the World Pool Association and the Billiard Congress of America's rules.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha............oh crap. I hurt myself falling off my chair.

Jump rods are not pool cues, but Jump cues are instruments. Correct me if I'm wrong - don't they both make the cueball hop? You can't control trajectory with the rod? Funny. You can't control speed with the rod? Funny. And, if I stick a phenolic tip on the end of the rod and chalk it, I can't spin the ball? Funny.

Keep cutting me to the bone, John. I can hardly take all these scientific facts you keep hurling at me.

 

[Southpaw]

Grady said it in an ignorant way. It SHOULD be "I can teach anyone to jump or kick in 30 minutes, but it takes years to learn how to do both of them well"

sounds like to me he is saying that they are no different to master....meaning one is just as tough as the other.

Southpaw

 

[Icon of Sin]

sounds like to me he is saying that they are no different to master....meaning one is just as tough as the other.

Southpaw

He didn't say that. What he said is the same as saying "I can teach anyone to break or make a spot shot in 30 mins, but it takes years to master"

Two different shots, two different difficulties, he was just lumping them into the same category of getting around blocked balls. You are starting to put words in other peoples posts to try to make your point.

 

[John Barton]

If its no holes barred...i can even shaft jump right?

Southpaw

I don't remember this being a stipulation in the game YOU proposed but I suppose if you feel the need to use a shaft to insure that you can jump a ball then you are welcome to it. I hope you won't mind of I bring some books and crib notes on kicking just in case I run into a shot I am not sure about.

I find it awfully hypocritical that you say it's so very easy to jump, takes no skill, when using a jump (gimmick, in your words) cue, yet you are not confident enough to use one and want to go to an eve easier method of jumping by using just a shaft. That's fine with me though. Because I already know that while it is easy to make the ball jump with a shaft it is much harder to control the cueball. So use whatever you like, even a jump rod if you can find one. I don't care. I know which jump cues offer the best balance of jumpability and cueball control so if you don't want to use one those then it's more the better for me.

Race to 9 for $1000 - you MUST attempt a jump on every safety and I MUST attempt a kick on every safety. No bunting balls into clusters just to avoid selling out. We will videotape the match and any violation of this requirement forfeits the stake.

Deal?

 

[Icon of Sin]

Race to 9 for $1000 - you MUST attempt a jump on every safety and I MUST attempt a kick on every safety. No bunting balls into clusters just to avoid selling out. We will videotape the match and any violation of this requirement forfeits the stake.

Deal?

Can I purchase a copy of that tape?

That match is definately a losing battle for southpaw. Jump shots only come in handy on certain occasions, you can kick almost any ball... imagine an object ball on the foot rail and the cue ball on the head rail and three balls blocking the path. My being a fan of the jump cue, would definately go kicking... but southpaw is not going to have that option.

Sorry if I am killing your action John.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

No silly rabbit tricks are for kids. We can put brand new Le Pro tips on both cues and go to it.

How you can contradict yourself in the same sentence without cracking yourself up is beyond me - um let's change the cue and then say it's not changed......duh

La la la la - oh Shawn how sad it is to live in the land of make believe and try to dive into the real world - reality just slaps you hard.

So, if I change the tip on the cue, it's no longer whippy? If I change the tip of the cue, I've changed its design? John, humor me here. Does the type of tip on the Predator shaft change its deflection characteristics? You know, if I went from a hard Moori to an Elkmaster, does the cue take on significant design changes that affect deflection? I'll save you the trouble - it doesn't. Predator studied it.

Cue design? Let's take a Bunjee jumper, 41" long and light as a feather. That's your cue to use. You get an Elkmaster tip. I'll grab an 18 ounce, 57" house cue, and stick a G10 glass epoxy tip on it. Your cue is designed with the proper weight and length to make jumping easier. Mine isn't engineered with the jump in mind. So far, this is very scientific, and no opinion expressed.

You have a long jump shot over a blocker ball that is 12" away from you, and the whole ball is in your path. The target ball is a hanger in the pocket. Which cue would you rather use? The tournament rides on this shot, double hill for the win. Remember, the jump cue is an instrument designed for this specific purpose.

 

[John Barton]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha............oh crap. I hurt myself falling off my chair.

Jump rods are not pool cues, but Jump cues are instruments. Correct me if I'm wrong - don't they both make the cueball hop? You can't control trajectory with the rod? Funny. You can't control speed with the rod? Funny. And, if I stick a phenolic tip on the end of the rod and chalk it, I can't spin the ball? Funny.

Keep cutting me to the bone, John. I can hardly take all these scientific facts you keep hurling at me.

Yeah so what, dosen't a broom handle propel a cueball in a straight line? No Shawn, the jump rods you referenced were not suitable for controlling the cueball with any useful degree of accuracy.

They were the what a broomstick is to a pool cue, the barest precursor of what is needed to play at a high level.

But since you think they are equal and you love to win easy money I will be happy to bet you that I beat you in a jump shot contest with ten shots when you use a metal rod with a 15mm tip and I use a jump cue made to conform to the rules of the World Pool Association.

I know you can't take fact. it's apparent in your rabid rantings. However over the past day we have seen quite a change - Im proud of you, at least you have been able to admit that skill does exist even with use of a jump cue. Perhaps that was only your reason surfacing for a moment but it was there. Congratulations, it took time but it was worth it.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I don't remember this being a stipulation in the game YOU proposed but I suppose if you feel the need to use a shaft to insure that you can jump a ball then you are welcome to it. I hope you won't mind of I bring some books and crib notes on kicking just in case I run into a shot I am not sure about.

I find it awfully hypocritical that you say it's so very easy to jump, takes no skill, when using a jump (gimmick, in your words) cue, yet you are not confident enough to use one and want to go to an eve easier method of jumping by using just a shaft. That's fine with me though. Because I already know that while it is easy to make the ball jump with a shaft it is much harder to control the cueball. So use whatever you like, even a jump rod if you can find one. I don't care. I know which jump cues offer the best balance of jumpability and cueball control so if you don't want to use one those then it's more the better for me.

Race to 9 for $1000 - you MUST attempt a jump on every safety and I MUST attempt a kick on every safety. No bunting balls into clusters just to avoid selling out. We will videotape the match and any violation of this requirement forfeits the stake.

Deal?

Guys,

If you want to settle the argument, here's how you do it. Screw playing a set - all that proves is who is a better shooter. Me, armed with every cue on the planet, isn't going to beat BlackJack or JoeyA or Grady. We're talking about two skillsets, and their application. Set up challenge shots for each other. The stipulation is that the minimum distance between the cueball and the object ball is 5" on any shot. John gets to kick at the shots, and Southpaw gets to jump. John doesn't get to set up any jump kicks, as this requires both skills to accomplish. The winner is the guy who makes the most shots. Each guy gets 3 attempts at each shot. Extra points are given for less attempts to make the shot.

That would settle it. John is a lifetime jump shot artist and kicker. Southpaw is against jump cues, so his jumping skills MUST suck. Put that money up, and it would be fun to watch.

 

[Icon of Sin]

That would settle it. John is a lifetime jump shot artist and kicker. Southpaw is against jump cues, so his jumping skills MUST suck. Put that money up, and it would be fun to watch.

You are contridicting yourself now. You are against jump cues but admitted to be efficient with one.

Also a setup challenge isnt really a challenge at all, the players ore going to give each other shots that are easier for jumping or shots that are easier for kicking. The only true way to find out is be at the mercy of the rolls of the table and the opponents safties.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I lived in New York for over 10 years, and know the area and general mentality well. I know plenty of socialistic, liberal Republicans from New York, not just Democrats. Your thought process in regards to rule making is typical of the socialistic, New York liberals I know so well. Not trying to be offensive, just saying what I think, and did not intend to offend you. As you took offense, I apologize. Nevertheless, I didn't bring patriotism into the question, you did. I have no reason to doubt your patriotism, and expect you are just as patriotic, if not more so, than I am.

Perhaps what I experienced in New York opened my eyes to a different way of seeing the world. I well remember the electricity in the City, the electricity of big ideas, and the way those of different provenance were often looked down upon. That pseudo-elite way of being may win elections, and perhaps even an argument here and there, but doesn't always persuade those who are targeted.

To people not from New York, many New Yorkers are brash. Can't say as I agree with that, but many people hold that view.

Jude, it's been a pleasure debating these ideas with you.

Flex

Two things:

1) In the decades-old co-opted use of the word "liberal", doesn't it imply fighting for the rights of the weak and the disadvantaged (in a somewhat negative way)? If so, the "liberal" viewpoint on the use of jumpsticks should ABSOLUTELY be the opposite of what Jude is suggesting. The use of jumpsticks is a great equalizer, allowing players of much weaker abilities to get out of safeties. As a general rule, given two equally-intelligent people, I would expect the more "liberal" one to fight for the right to use it.

2) You are 100% correct when you say "To people not from New York, many New Yorkers are brash. Can't say as I agree with that, but many people hold that view." A good friend and great player just came back from a months-long vacation walking the mountains and plains in western europe. He said he got in one major argument the whole time, with a lady from California.

As soon as they met and she found out she was from NY, she was egging him on with all kinds of bullshit. He tried to remain polite, but she kept needling him. Not playfully, just annoyingly. It got to a point that he couldn't take it anymore, ended up cursing at her, and of course she replied with, "Oh, just like a New Yorker." People are funny, aren't they?

I often think about how right after 9/11, I heard people being interviewed in middle America about seeing NYers lined up immediately after the attacks to give blood and to volunteer. And the overwhelming sentiment from these people was, "wow, I didn't expect people in NEW YORK CITY to do that." It was actually touching to hear, because maybe, at the very least in those dark, dark days, it had helped to shape NY's image a bit differently across the world.

But I'm sure that stuff has long been forgotten.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

- Steve

 

[BVal]

Two things:

1) In the decades-old co-opted use of the word "liberal", doesn't it imply fighting for the rights of the weak and the disadvantaged (in a somewhat negative way)? If so, the "liberal" viewpoint on the use of jumpsticks should ABSOLUTELY be the opposite of what Jude is suggesting. The use of jumpsticks is a great equalizer, allowing players of much weaker abilities to get out of safeties. As a general rule, given two equally-intelligent people, I would expect the more "liberal" one to fight for the right to use it.

2) You are 100% correct when you say "To people not from New York, many New Yorkers are brash. Can't say as I agree with that, but many people hold that view." A good friend and great player just came back from a months-long vacation walking the mountains and plains in western europe. He said he got in one major argument the whole time, with a lady from California.

As soon as they met and she found out she was from NY, she was egging him on with all kinds of bullshit. He tried to remain polite, but she kept needling him. Not playfully, just annoyingly. It got to a point that he couldn't take it anymore, ended up cursing at her, and of course she replied with, "Oh, just like a New Yorker." People are funny, aren't they?

I often think about how right after 9/11, I heard people being interviewed in middle America about seeing NYers lined up immediately after the attacks to give blood and to volunteer. And the overwhelming sentiment from these people was, "wow, I didn't expect people in NEW YORK CITY to do that." It was actually touching to hear, because maybe, at the very least in those dark, dark days, it had helped to shape NY's image a bit differently across the world.

But I'm sure that stuff has long been forgotten.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

- Steve

I wish you would shorten your location so I didn't have to scroll over the screen when I read what you write. I really like what you write but it is such a pain in the butt to read it. JMHO.

BVal

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Oops, I didn't realize that happens. It doesn't happen on my screen.

Shall change immediamente...

 

[John Barton]

So, if I change the tip on the cue, it's no longer whippy? If I change the tip of the cue, I've changed its design? John, humor me here. Does the type of tip on the Predator shaft change its deflection characteristics? You know, if I went from a hard Moori to an Elkmaster, does the cue take on significant design changes that affect deflection? I'll save you the trouble - it doesn't. Predator studied it.

Cue design? Let's take a Bunjee jumper, 41" long and light as a feather. That's your cue to use. You get an Elkmaster tip. I'll grab an 18 ounce, 57" house cue, and stick a G10 glass epoxy tip on it. Your cue is designed with the proper weight and length to make jumping easier. Mine isn't engineered with the jump in mind. So far, this is very scientific, and no opinion expressed.

You have a long jump shot over a blocker ball that is 12" away from you, and the whole ball is in your path. The target ball is a hanger in the pocket. Which cue would you rather use? The tournament rides on this shot, double hill for the win. Remember, the jump cue is an instrument designed for this specific purpose.

I would use the bunjee. I have already done that experiment Shawn, with elkmasters, mooris, le pros, water buffalos, on jump cues, phenolic on pool cues, g-10, you name it. The 41" inch cue with an elkmaster outjumps the 57" g-10 tipped cue consistently and is easier to control. As a matter of fact I have five shafts right now with different tips on them expressly for the purpose of testing them out for their jumping characteristics, on my Fury JB. I also have an 8 piece shaft for the JB with a Moori tip on it that jumps pretty sporty as a full cue and as a jump cue.

Shawno - whatever you think you know about jump cues I know for sure that I know more. More about the history, the development, the characteristics, more everything. Just be a hater and quit trying to justify it. Faith is belief without reason. So believe that jump cues are evil and suspend reason and you are good to go.

Why are you afraid to do the jump contest with two "real cues" from different manufacturers but with the same tips? Why would you want to remove the tip from the Meucci? Is it because you KNOW that this will increase it's jumpabilty? Come on Shawn, you don't want to rely on a "gimmick" to beat me do you? Do you? Remember you're not jaded just true. I only responded to YOUR remark about using REAL CUES. A Meucci is a REAL CUE, many championships have been won using them, a Tim Scruggs is a REAL CUE, many people swear by them. I will let you install the tips, I am positive that you are honest enough to make them both of equal hardness. But I might bring a Durometer just in case your judgement is a little off.

You want to PROVE something then here is your chance to prove that jump cues are just gimmicks and that any real man can jump with any real cue.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

You are contridicting yourself now. You are against jump cues but admitted to be efficient with one.

Also a setup challenge isnt really a challenge at all, the players ore going to give each other shots that are easier for jumping or shots that are easier for kicking. The only true way to find out is be at the mercy of the rolls of the table and the opponents safties.

How am I contradicting myself? I guess a sprinter who is against steriods must run slow?

I don't like jump cues. I am good with them. Learn to deal with it. Just because I am good at something, doesn't mean I support it. Case in point - natural bodybuilders. They want big muscles. They are willing to work at their bodies. Steriods would make them huge, and help them in their quest. They choose not to use them. Do you get this now?

 

[BVal]

How am I contradicting myself? I guess a sprinter who is against steriods must run slow?
I don't like jump cues. I am good with them. Learn to deal with it. Just because I am good at something, doesn't mean I support it. Case in point - natural bodybuilders. They want big muscles. They are willing to work at their bodies. Steriods would make them huge, and help them in their quest. They choose not to use them. Do you get this now?

That is a funny thing to say or use as a comparison. Since steroids are ILLEGAL and jump cues are nothign but LEGAL. Makes no sense. JMO

BVal

 

[Icon of Sin]

How am I contradicting myself?

You said Southpaw is against jump cues and must suck at jumping. Your skillset with jump cues and standpoint against them is a contradiction regarding your view of Southpaw.

Talk about dealing with things... jump cues are legal, your opponent could use them at anytime, much to your dismay... DEAL WITH IT.

 

[Icon of Sin]

That is a funny thing to say or use as a comparison. Since steroids are ILLEGAL and jump cues are nothign but LEGAL. Makes no sense. JMO

BVal

He is really reaching BVal, not much of what he said in this thread has made much sense. It's basically a whining session.