The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

smashmouth said:
"jump cues suck" that's a Strickland quote

and he's absolutley correct

if the suppliers had their way, we' d be carrying golf size bags to the pool rooms chock full of crap we don't need
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Whch is awfully hypocritical considering he has used a jump cue for most of his career. He had a special Cuetec that was much shorter than normal that he used for jumping balls. I have seen it many times.

Of course we want you buying more stuff - come on man we want to make a living too :-)

Of course I don't think you can find one instance of suppliers as a group lobbying rulemakers to insitute rules that require more equipment. I think most suppliers just supply within and according to the rules.
 
crosseyedjoe said:
I would love to play someone who will use a jump cue to get out of safeties.
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You oughta love playing Mike Davis then... man can he jump and then run out.... Ditto for Danny Green.

Flex
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Yep. Which is why I don't think 5-7 ounce cues have any place in the game :).

If you can't make the shot with your playing cue or your breaker, then you're SOL. My opinion. I can't stack balls on top of each other to hook you, so you shouldn't be allowed to go over them.
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You're acting like the jump cue gives the other guy an unfair advantage. You're allowed to jump too.

I'm not crazy about the jump cue either, but I can't help but think that some people who are against jumping are in reality unable to execute effective jumps on their own, therefore want the jump banned.

Reminds me of playing the bangers at the local room. You know the ones who say they don't believe in playing safe, they think it's like cheating or "dirty pool" That's because they don't have a clue how to play a good safe.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
John, I've said from day 1 I don't like jump cues. My opinion is it introduced a skill that was never thought of or imagined when the game was designed. That in mind, I have proposed new rules to deal with the existence of the jump cue. How did you like them? Declared safeties, no jumps allowed. Lost of match for 3 consecutive fouls. I can deal with their existence. Heck, they don't allow them in our BCA leagues, so no one can use them. I just think the average person watching pool probably snickers when the "baby cue" comes out. That's what my son and my wife call it when it's on TV. "Daddy, look. He has a baby cue!" (Courtesy of my son, Jacob, 3.5 years old)
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And that's part of the problem - how can you have a BCA league and not follow BCA rules? I can't beieve that you aren't pissed about that.

How does no jumps allowed deal with the existence of jump cues? So you want to ban the jump shot? What happens if you get safe but didn't decare it? is it a foul? Under your rules I can see people trying to play safe a lot more instead of trying to run out as 3 fouls would win them the whole match.

I don't think the average person cares one way or the other about jump cues. It's only us fanatics that harbor deep seated opinions about them and will write thousands of word t support our point of views.

Who designed the game of pool? My understanding is that it evolved into what it is today. I was also learning to jump balls in the mid 80's well before jump cues came into prominence. So conceptually the jump shot was a part of the game long before the "jump" cue was invented.

Would you change your opinion if someone produced evidence of jump shots or cues for that purpose from the early 1900's?

I feel sorry for your players in your league who are being penalized. If any of them go to Vegas they are going to be at a competitive disadvantage. If I played in your league I would complain to the BCA abut the conflicting rules. Or I would start a competing league that adhered to the BCA rules.
 
Shawn Armstrong (if you're related to Neil Armstrong, I want an autographed memorabilia from him),

Let's put it this way, jump cue is not a "giant leap" for the pool playing community.

Concentrate on kicks and banks, and when someone takes out a break cue to get out of safeties, let him do it.
 
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Shawn Armstrong said:
Imagine a shot where you move the cueball 15 feet around the table to land in a zone 4" behind a blocking ball. 4" away from the hole in golf is a great putt. In the past decade, the jump cue has made safeties all but obsolete. You say "tighten up your safety play". I say "ban the jump cue". You say tomato, I say...........
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Wrong Shawn - if anything jump cues have made people BETTER at playing safe. I guarantee you that most people who own a jump cue will NOT be able to consistently jump a 4" blocking ball, especially under pressure. So the ones that can should be praised for their skill.

So you played a good safe and they played a good shot to get out of it.

It's defintely not a tomato/tomaato argument. Again the facts trump hypotheticals.
 
crosseyedjoe said:
Shawn Armstrong (if you're related to Neil Armstrong, I want an autograph from him),

Let's put it this way, jump cue is not a "giant leap" for the pool playing community.

Concentrate on kicks and banks, and when someone takes out a break cue to get out of safeties, let him do it.
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Fine, my break cue is 40 inches long and weighs 9 ounces. Is that okay to use to get out of safeties?
 
jumping is a skill, same as kicking or breaking for that matter. Don't hate because you can't do it, or are too stubborn to learn. my boss is an older straight pool player from Chicago and he *****es about breaking and jumping equipment in 9ball when we play, so i'll let him use mine to even it out, but it doesn't, because he never bothered to learn how, instead he just complains because it's a skill he doesn't have, and it ashame because he was a helluva straight pool player(Leon Ledford). needless to say buy a damn jump cue and practice, or quit whining!!!!!!!! jeremy
 
John Barton said:
Fine, my break cue is 40 inches long and weighs 9 ounces. Is that okay to use to get out of safeties?
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I have no problem with someone who will jump to get out of safety. In fact, I like them to attempt it. The more the better. I like it too when they are trying to pocket a ball.


9-ball Banks nice, 9-ball Jumps, wow that's a circus.
 
All in all, this discussion reinforces what I have been thinking lately in regard to the game of 9 ball. That is, to give it up and play more One Pocket. I've talked to some of the better local players in the past couple of years who have almost totally given up 9 ball in favor of One Pocket, for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. As onyone who's read my responces about 9 ball in the past knows, I personally favor the old two foul pushout rules. And it may need clarifying to some people, you can't push on every shot, if there was a previous foul. Every time I see somebody posting not in favor of pushout, they make it sound like you can push every shot. I suppose you could, but you would be giving up ball in hand, if you did.
As to jump cues or not, I just don't know. I think I would be in favor or no jump shots at all, but then you would just wind up with a longer game from having to shoot where the cue ball stopped. If there were no penalty, that is. Depressing, really.
 
I believe that jump shots and jump cues can make the game of 9-ball more exciting.

Consider this shot... my opponent just missed... my turn at the table... I'm absolutely locked up surrounded by ~4 balls below the foot string... about 0.75 diamonds above the foot rail and 1.25 diamonds from the side rail.

My object ball... the 2... was all the way up table... damn near on the Brunswick. There were absolutely no clear kicking lanes that were open to me... so I jumped... but not directly at the 2-ball because there was a series of three balls in the way... all spread out the length of the table... so I decided to jump to the long rail near whitey... about an 18" jump overall... over 2/3 of a ball halfway in between whitey and the rail. I had to hit the rail on a fly... which I did... and at the correct angle for it to rebound off the side rail and go uptable to make a legal hit on the 2... which I did. It was a helluva shot. ;) :)
 
Try this link Shawn:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=58879

This was a hot topic of debate started by some little flame starter....ooops that was me...ummmm.:o

I personally love jump cues even though I rarely go for mine. I love that so many newer players are simply learning to jump rather than kick. It really makes my life easier as I know they haven't focused their time learning kicks and rails so I just have to guard against one thing...the jump shot. I have been very fortunate that I have players locally that are in love with their jump cue so much that it has cost them more money, which went straight into my pocket, than they paid for the damn thing! :D

I LOVE JUMP CUES AND THE PLAYERS WHO LOVE USING THEM!!!

Plus, a great jump shot played with skill and especially one made under pressure is still very exciting to see and I feel it brings a different level of excitement to an already exciting game.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It isn't Draconian. It's common. Major League Baseball has an approval process and I don't think it gets more American than baseball.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rule1.shtml
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Major League baseball is a professional, big business, that pays players mega bucks, and that controls their lives to some degree. Players have contracts with specific teams. Very little free lancing going on there. The commissioner has the power to fine players large sums for infractions. Etc., etc.

Totally apples and oranges.

When pool players are sponsored by companies like Cuetec certain stipulations on how they will conduct themselves inevitably will be negotiated, as for instance, which cue or cues they may play with. That's something Earl the Pearl is no longer bound by, and apparently he now is playing with a Gulyassy modified OB-1 shaft.

If and when pool reaches the vaunted status of major league baseball, or football, or basketball, and has the financial power of those other enterprises, it may set all sorts of standards. However, even in major league baseball, the American and National Leagues, if I'm not mistaken, have had different rules over the years. Why couldn't different tours have different equipment and rules from each other? Of course they could.

What you are proposing, however, seems to me to be a top down, false solution to issues about which players vehemently disagree.

Not happening anytime soon, as far as I can see.

Flex
 
John Barton said:
Fine, my break cue is 40 inches long and weighs 9 ounces. Is that okay to use to get out of safeties?
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You betcha. By the way, I've used my jump cue for breaking before, and it worked just fine. Not a big, powerful break, but often I've made two balls on the break and spread the others around just fine.

Good point.

Flex
 
cigardave said:
I believe that jump shots and jump cues can make the game of 9-ball more exciting.

Consider this shot... my opponent just missed... my turn at the table... I'm absolutely locked up surrounded by ~4 balls below the foot string... about 0.75 diamonds above the foot rail and 1.25 diamonds from the side rail.

My object ball... the 2... was all the way up table... damn near on the Brunswick. There were absolutely no clear kicking lanes that were open to me... so I jumped... but not directly at the 2-ball because there was a series of three balls in the way... all spread out the length of the table... so I decided to jump to the long rail near whitey... about an 18" jump overall... over 2/3 of a ball halfway in between whitey and the rail. I had to hit the rail on a fly... which I did... and at the correct angle for it to rebound off the side rail and go uptable to make a legal hit on the 2... which I did. It was a helluva shot. ;) :)
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Yeppers!

I pulled a similar one off the other night that required a long jump down table, with some right english on the cue ball, to contact the short rail and spin right to contact the required object ball. Pulled that shot off. Who says there's no skill involved in making a shot like that?

Flex
 
Flex said:
Major League baseball is a professional, big business, that pays players mega bucks, and that controls their lives to some degree. Players have contracts with specific teams. Very little free lancing going on there. The commissioner has the power to fine players large sums for infractions. Etc., etc.


Totally apples and oranges.
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Yes, it's amazing the strides baseball has made compared to pool. It is apples and oranges. I think we might have something to learn but perhaps not.



Flex said:
When pool players are sponsored by companies like Cuetec certain stipulations on how they will conduct themselves inevitably will be negotiated, as for instance, which cue or cues they may play with. That's something Earl the Pearl is no longer bound by, and apparently he now is playing with a Gulyassy modified OB-1 shaft.
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Yes. What's your point?


Flex said:
If and when pool reaches the vaunted status of major league baseball, or football, or basketball, and has the financial power of those other enterprises, it may set all sorts of standards. However, even in major league baseball, the American and National Leagues, if I'm not mistaken, have had different rules over the years. Why couldn't different tours have different equipment and rules from each other? Of course they could.
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Yes, they COULD and they actually DO. The problem is, if you compete often (as I do), you're pretty much forced to keep your bag filled with whatever is necessary to maintain an even field. Today it's a jump cue. Tomorrow, who knows? I don't own one because I wanted it. I own one because my opponents have them. I can jump with a full cue just fine and I kick fairly well. Personally, I think the jump-cue has made pool less skillful but that's my humble opinion.



Flex said:
What you are proposing, however, seems to me to be a top down, false solution to issues about which players vehemently disagree.
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Flex said:
Not happening anytime soon, as far as I can see.

Flex
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THIS WHOLE THREAD is about top down solutions. I don't see how my idea is any different. However, you're right. Nothing is going to happen any time soon.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yes. What's your point?

My point is that money has a huge influence over how problems are solved. That influence can help or hurt pool. Once Earl was cut free from Cuetec, he chose a top performing shaft, and modified it to better suit his game. Innovation is what it's all about. If he had to submit his modified shaft to a governing body before first using it, would he have made those changes? I rather doubt it.



Yes, they COULD and they actually DO. The problem is, if you compete often (as I do), you're pretty much forced to keep your bag filled with whatever is necessary to maintain an even field. Today it's a jump cue. Tomorrow, who knows? I don't own one because I wanted it. I own one because my opponents have them. I can jump with a full cue just fine and I kick fairly well. Personally, I think the jump-cue has made pool less skillful but that's my humble opinion.

You're so right about that. But rules are rules, and they vary from one place to another. No getting around that, at least for now, as far as I can tell. As for jump cues, I got one after losing the cash to much better players who would hook me and do it so well I couldn't kick out of the situation. I too can jump with a full length cue, and have done so many times. However, the shorter, lighter cues also serve a purpose. After some of them see how well I can jump, they want to ban my jump cue. Surprise, surprise. In every case where they have whined about that, I just offer to call the match off. They never have. Probably just a sharking technique on their part.








THIS WHOLE THREAD is about top down solutions. I don't see how my idea is any different. However, you're right. Nothing is going to happen any time soon.

How right you are. And top down solutions of the sort that Shawn proposed fit in with his anti-jump cue bias. Maybe he lost a whole bag of jelly beans to someone over a lucky jump shot, and since then has been on a mission to ban them.
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My responses are in blue.

Flex
 
Shawn,

So could a player use his full length shooting cue to make a jump shot? I prefer to kick personally, but I can jump with a full cue. I feel that takes alot more skill than some gimmicked jumper. JMO.

Southpaw
 
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