The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

[John Barton]

They don't allow it in Snooker, that speaks loudly enough for me...

There is also no ball in hand penalty, no requirement to hit a rail after contact and incoming player's choice to have the outgoing player re-attempt the shot. It's a different game with different requirements.

 

[elite1206]

Perhaps to make money? Perhaps it's because the jump with the full cue is a technique/skill that only elite players can master? Jump rods can make any clown jump that has $99. That's my thinking, and just my opinion. He also made the Doss jump/play cue, which was a full length cue that had a weighted core. You removed the core that the cue, although still 58" long, was super light to jump.

Anyone on this group have Doss' video on jumping? I've wanted to get my hands on this for awhile.

A person with a jump cue can learn how to jump in 5min with a jump cue, but that doesnt mean he will be able to jump well, similarly a person can learn how to kick in 5min with a cue, but that doesnt men he will be able to kick well.
Does this mean we should ban cues as well? Jump cues like normal playing cues are introduced to this game to improve the gameplay.

Most of the times, only the pros can jump and make balls consistently, and the others will just jump for the sake of getting out of safeties and most of the time, they leave an open table for you to run out.

All I have to say is, technology will continue to improve and new equipment will continue to be introduced. Deal with it and incorporate them into your game. If you cant, then my advice for you is to stop playing ANY sports, because there is no sports out there which doesnt evolve with time and technology advances.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I'll say it again- Break cues should be gimmick sticks too, using your logic. Alot of them allow you to break the balls harder than normal cues. Are break cues gimmick sticks? It's easy to learn how to break better with one of those top-of-the-line break cues. The argument about jump cues is the same thing.

I break with a standard cue - leather tip, no phenolics or special technology. And, you're missing a valuable point. The break shot has ALWAYS been in the game of pool. If you made a cue that made drawing the ball easier (see Predator for this invention), that should be allowed, because since the inception of the leather tip, that's a necessity of the game. Jump cues were designed to allow players to go over blocking balls. Do I have issues with the jump shot? No. And to make JB happy, I'll tell you why. The player with the best skills should win the match. Notice I say "should". If Efren and I were to match up, he'd win. Maybe on a flukey Sunday, I go off like a world champ and beat him in a set (and then I usually wake up at this point of my dream........). That doesn't mean I am better than him. So, going back to Efren, it's obvious that the player with the better skills will win. So, you have players that have developed the skill of being able to jump balls with a regular length cue, and are quite proficient at it. Now the phenolic tipped jump cues come in to the game. You have players that had a skill set that has now been obsoleted for the pricetag of $99. I know, the comeback will be that those good at jumping with a full length cue will still be at an advantage, as the jump cue will help them jump even better than they did before. The problem is "return on investment". I could be great at jumping with a full length cue (and for those that think I can't jump, I seem to know an awful lot about jump cues - maybe it's for a reason - my friend used to call my jump shot "Viagra"), and the other guy might jump like a white guy in the NBA. I obviously have an advantage, agreed? We then go out and buy matching jump cues. Now, the huge advantage I had over him only becomes marginal. There are a minority of shots I can make that he can't, due to my superior skill set, but unfortunately he was able to make a huge catch up due to technology and equipment that he is able to purchase. Someone mentioned kicking and jumping being the same thing. They aren't. At the highest level (pros), there are subtle nuances, but at our level (for all those non-pro players like me) the purchase of a jump cue is a "leaps and bounds" purchase in terms of bridging the gap in that skillset advantage. You can buy a new break cue, but if your breaking technique is poor, you don't get the same ROI on your investment there. If you're good at breaking, the harder tips will make you break harder. If you're bad at breaking, you might break better, but the BK2 or the Sledgehammer haven't turned Efren into Earl or Johnny. A break cue will rarely improve your breaking ability by more than 50%. Buying a jump cue can increase your ability to jump by 200%+.

Again, just my ramblings.

 

[John Barton]

Perhaps to make money? Perhaps it's because the jump with the full cue is a technique/skill that only elite players can master? Jump rods can make any clown jump that has $99. That's my thinking, and just my opinion. He also made the Doss jump/play cue, which was a full length cue that had a weighted core. You removed the core that the cue, although still 58" long, was super light to jump.

Anyone on this group have Doss' video on jumping? I've wanted to get my hands on this for awhile.

Making money is a consideration for sure. But more likely it's due to the drive to create and improve. People have ideas about what makes the game better and some act on it. Some of those ideas are pie in the sky and founder in the marketplace and others that work - like jump cues - take hold.

Doss' patent is from 1993 well before the advent of jump cues in their current form, right about the era of the phenolic jump rods.

Why do you continue to call people clowns and monkeys? Surely you have friends, people who like you who have bought and use jump cues. Do you consider them to be clowns, monkeys, idiots, bangers, or any other derogatory terms?

I and others have already told you that not everyone can automatically jump with a jump cue just as people can't draw automatically just because you hand them a chalked 58" cue. Why can't you simply accept this as fact and move on. I am 100% certain that if a jump cue by itself gave people a skill then the jump cue would be banned. The jump cue only gives people the means not the skill.

I wish that people like you could relive my years of exhibitions and teaching - your attitude would change 180 degrees. The first time you have a halfway decent player who cannot make the ball jump with a jump cue no matter what you tell him, no matter how much you correct his stroke, and this goes on for 30 minutes while you lose other people who think the "gimmick" stick doesn't work then you will never again sy that any monkey can do it. All the teachers on here know exactly what I am saying.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I don't see why we are still arguing about this.

It's fair for both people. You want to feel good about jumping with a full cue then join the APA, they dont allow jump cues. Then you can use your full cue to jump every safety because you are an elite player and can do it with a full cue.

If they can use a jump cue, you can use a jump cue. Should have thought about that before you took all the time to learn to jump with a full cue. That time could have been spent learning to play better safes.

 

[elite1206]

A break cue will rarely improve your breaking ability by more than 50%. Buying a jump cue can increase your ability to jump by 200%+.

Again, just my ramblings.

I think you simply dont understand the difference between being able to jump and being able to jump well. Buying a jump cue only allows you to make a jump easier, just like a break cue will allow you to break better. But to break or jump well, either making the balls or playing a counter safety with a jump shot, requires skills, and that takes you lots of time and effort.

No one can pick up a break cue and start breaking with tons of power, with precision and control at the same time, similarly no one can pick up a jump cue and start jumping and making the balls all the time.

Jump cues just make jumping easier, just like cues makes playing easier, it is up to an individual to hone his skills in order to excel in that particular set of skill.

 

[Flex]

"Golly gee whiz, captain, some of these guys are hard core, iron sculled luddites!"

-- Jiminy Crickets

 

[John Barton]

no, the jump cue increases the ability to jump by like a 1000% - that's exactly how revolutionary it is.

Shawn, if you were the best player in the world without a chalked tip and I were well below you and we played where I used chalk and you didn't and I beat you silly, would you rather ban chalk or start using it?

Obsoleted? that is not even a word. Of course the investment in time learning to jump with a 58" "normal" cue is not made obsolete.

I can't believe that you would prefer to cut off a wide range of shots and opportunities at the table just to protect your edge over weaker opponents. Champions don't think this way, they just get out there and WIN and they appreciate any legal tools that help them to do so. Only Earl is a vocal opponent of the jump cue and he's a hypocrite about it.

A jump cue does not "give" you a skillset - it gives you a platform to build a skillset on. When you buy a jump cue you don't buy the stroke, you don't buy the knowledge, you only buy the right tool with which to put that knowledge to work.

Why did I bother to have Tom Simpson create a detailed booklet on how to jump that we sent out with every Bunjee? I did it because it's not automatic and sending a jump cue out to people who don't have the skill would be disasterous when they floundered trying to figure it out. I bet that our little booklet is the most referenced and downloaded piece on jumping balls on the net. If the jump cue were so easy that a "caveman could do it" then there wouldn't hve been any need to instruct would there?

I am not going to propose a bet but I'd like to see you go to an APA event and gather up a bunch of 2s and 3s and hand them a jump cue and tell them to jump. These are the folks you call monkeys and clowns - or do you mean all players? I know from experience that the majority of them won't have the first clue what to do with the jump cue and without instruction they won't figure it out either.

 

[Joe]

I agree with John. Knowing both skill sets is the only way to go. It is disheartening if you haven't been playing with people who jump often and someone pulls out a cue and make a great shot, but being completely accurate with a jump is difficult. Also, the loss of control makes me hesitant to play with a jump cue sometimes. I'll have a few months to work on it at school this year, and hopefully I'll gain a bit more control, but until then I'll kick and try to hit the correct side of the ball to leave a good safe. After all, kicking isn't just about hitting the ball, if you leave a shot, you might've well have just taken a foul and tied balls up.

 

[Flex]

One night at a bar we're playing on an old Brunswick 9 footer. Winner stays on the table for free -- playing this chick. 8 ball's the game. Running some balls, I hook myself. Pull out the jump cue, and jump bank a ball in the called pocket. Chick gets all teary eyed, and almost starts crying. Did I win that game? Sure did.

Some of the reponses to this thread remind me of that wet eyed girl...

Flex

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I think you simply dont understand the difference between being able to jump and being able to jump well. Buying a jump cue only allows you to make a jump easier, just like a break cue will allow you to break better. But to break or jump well, either making the balls or playing a counter safety with a jump shot, requires skills, and that takes you lots of time and effort.

No one can pick up a break cue and start breaking with tons of power, with precision and control at the same time, similarly no one can pick up a jump cue and start jumping and making the balls all the time.

Jump cues just make jumping easier, just like cues makes playing easier, it is up to an individual to hone his skills in order to excel in that particular set of skill.

And I don't think you understand how much of an improvement the basic jump shot can make to a mediocre player's game. When it comes to kicking, you can position the ball to take basis rail targets out of the equation. Sure, if you know english and practice, you know how to shorten with draw, or stretch the angle with side. For the most part, 95% of jump shots are jacked up and shooting STRAIGHT at the target ball. There is the odd jump kick. But when kicking, there are so many other things to discuss. Take, for example, a cueball that is 9" behind a blocker. If I am playing a mediocre player that doesn't kick well, I can choose my cueball position when playing safe to leave him bad angles he isn't able to kick out of. One inch makes a huge difference in cutting of rails and angles into them. So, 9" behind the blocker or 8" behind the blocker makes a huge difference in kicking, and the angles available. If you can jump a ball that is 8" away, you can jump one that's 9" away. You have to learn one shot that covered off a plethora of scenarios. I agree, there are subtleties to great jump shots. However, if you are able to learn the dart stroke with some proficiency, you have "mastered" 80% of jumping in the game. And that, as Grady says, is lamentable.

 

[Flex]

However, if you are able to learn the dart stroke with some proficiency, you have "mastered" 80% of jumping in the game. And that, as Grady says, is lamentable.

Oh, boo hoo hoo......

By the way, I love my OB-1

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

One night at a bar we're playing on an old Brunswick 9 footer. Winner stays on the table for free -- playing this chick. 8 ball's the game. Running some balls, I hook myself. Pull out the jump cue, and jump bank a ball in the called pocket. Chick gets all teary eyed, and almost starts crying. Did I win that game? Sure did.

Some of the reponses to this thread remind me of that wet eyed girl...

Flex

Kinda reminds me of Adam Sandler playing dodgeball with 3rd graders in Billy Madison. "I hooked myself, so I ***** slapped a recreational player with my gadget". Hope you woofed at her after you made it.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Kinda reminds me of Adam Sandler playing dodgeball with 3rd graders in Billy Madison. "I hooked myself, so I ***** slapped a recreational player with my gadget". Hope you woofed at her after you made it.

....and we wonder why we have a tough time getting new players to join leagues and get interested in the game. If she's won that game, she may have been a fan for life.

Every so often, I let my son beat me playing the memory game. It helps boost his confidence, and he has fun when he wins half the time.

Glad to see you are able to channel your competitive nature the same way. Did you do the pump fist after the shot?

 

[Icon of Sin]

One night at a bar we're playing on an old Brunswick 9 footer. Winner stays on the table for free -- playing this chick. 8 ball's the game. Running some balls, I hook myself. Pull out the jump cue, and jump bank a ball in the called pocket. Chick gets all teary eyed, and almost starts crying. Did I win that game? Sure did.

Some of the reponses to this thread remind me of that wet eyed girl...

Flex

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Well said!!!!

 

[Icon of Sin]

Every so often, I let my son beat me playing the memory game. It helps boost his confidence, and he has fun when he wins half the time.

Well look at it this way, by not using a jump cue and whining about them, your letting your opponent win.

 

[Flex]

Kinda reminds me of Adam Sandler playing dodgeball with 3rd graders in Billy Madison. "I hooked myself, so I ***** slapped a recreational player with my gadget". Hope you woofed at her after you made it.

I just politely thanked her for the game.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

One night at a bar we're playing on an old Brunswick 9 footer. Winner stays on the table for free -- playing this chick. 8 ball's the game. Running some balls, I hook myself. Pull out the jump cue, and jump bank a ball in the called pocket. Chick gets all teary eyed, and almost starts crying. Did I win that game? Sure did.

Some of the reponses to this thread remind me of that wet eyed girl...

Flex

Just so we're clear - you pulled out a jump cue in a bar? Like, whole bar is using those crappy house cues and you brought the 3x6 case?

 

[Flex]

Just so we're clear - you pulled out a jump cue in a bar? Like, whole bar is using those crappy house cues and you brought the 3x6 case?

This is no simple bar. It's Ten Cat in Chicago. The owner, Richard, is a custom cue maker. He has two tables, a 9 footer, and an 8 footer. He runs tournaments out of the bar, some with $40 entry fees. He runs leagues out of the bar. Nice place to play. One of the regulars there told me he once broke and ran 5 consecutive racks of 8 ball on that 9 footer. There are some real players in there.

Sorry I didn't mention all these details before.

Cheers!

Flex

P.S. Richard's house cues are all in great shape, all of them Dufferins. The pool playing regulars bring in their cases, with custom pool cues, and everything. BTW, my case is a 4 X 8.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I am not going to propose a bet but I'd like to see you go to an APA event and gather up a bunch of 2s and 3s and hand them a jump cue and tell them to jump. These are the folks you call monkeys and clowns - or do you mean all players? I know from experience that the majority of them won't have the first clue what to do with the jump cue and without instruction they won't figure it out either.

When I say a "clown", I'm not talking about 2s and 3s. A clown is that guy that thinks he can play pool, but couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. We had a guy that joined our league, and entered himself as a 7 (top handicap) on the first night. He said " I can beat everyone here". I proceeded to destroy him, and I was ranked a 5 in those days. He wouldn't even be a strong 3. This guy always wanted to play with me because he thought it was a good matchup. Anyways, this guy bought my jump cue from me. He horsed around with it for a weekend. The guy could jump like a cricket. Couldn't play one lick of real pool, but he could jump. THAT'S a clown.

Give me a 4 or a 5. Someone with at least a semblance of a stroke, and I'll do what you ask. I couldn't go to an APA event and grab several 2s or 3s that could hit a stun or a draw. If they can't stroke through the ball, they can't jump. Give me the "average" person that buys a jump cue. Average ranking for the APA is a 4.5 handicap. So give me 4 5s and 4 4s, and I'll do what you ask.