The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

Shawn Armstrong said:
And I don't think you understand how much of an improvement the basic jump shot can make to a mediocre player's game. When it comes to kicking, you can position the ball to take basis rail targets out of the equation. Sure, if you know english and practice, you know how to shorten with draw, or stretch the angle with side. For the most part, 95% of jump shots are jacked up and shooting STRAIGHT at the target ball. There is the odd jump kick. But when kicking, there are so many other things to discuss. Take, for example, a cueball that is 9" behind a blocker. If I am playing a mediocre player that doesn't kick well, I can choose my cueball position when playing safe to leave him bad angles he isn't able to kick out of. One inch makes a huge difference in cutting of rails and angles into them. So, 9" behind the blocker or 8" behind the blocker makes a huge difference in kicking, and the angles available. If you can jump a ball that is 8" away, you can jump one that's 9" away. You have to learn one shot that covered off a plethora of scenarios. I agree, there are subtleties to great jump shots. However, if you are able to learn the dart stroke with some proficiency, you have "mastered" 80% of jumping in the game. And that, as Grady says, is lamentable.
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If you can choose your cueball position that well, then you wont even be bothered with players using jump cues, cos you would leave them safeties that they cant get out off with jump cues. IF you can choose to leave a safety with a difference of 1", I believe you can choose to leave a safety that others cant jump to get out of it.

I can jump with dart stroke, but does that mean I have mastered 80% of jumping, I can tell you the answer is no. In my opinion, among the best jumpers in the world are the Taiwanese, and if you ever notice their games, none of them uses a dart stroke.

And I am not talking about great jump shots, just simply making the balls or playing a counter safety consistently. Its almost as hard as making the balls with a kick, but usually you find that it is much easier to play a counter safety with a kick.
 
Flex said:
One night at a bar we're playing on an old Brunswick 9 footer. Winner stays on the table for free -- playing this chick. 8 ball's the game. Running some balls, I hook myself. Pull out the jump cue, and jump bank a ball in the called pocket. Chick gets all teary eyed, and almost starts crying. Did I win that game? Sure did.

Some of the reponses to this thread remind me of that wet eyed girl...

Flex
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I'm not so sure if I have to giggle, laugh or roll on the floor. Bringing your own cue in bar during a night out is odd enough, bringing a jump cue too.

John Barton, I think there is really hope for a golf-size bag, room for break cue, back-up shooting cue, and your own bridge.
 
Icon of Sin said:
Well look at it this way, by not using a jump cue and whining about them, your letting your opponent win.
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FYI, the locations I play in don't allow jump cues. Against the rules, so I guess I'm not handicapping myself too much. Some owners value the cloth on their tables, and aren't willing to run the risk that you jump as good as you say you do.
 
crosseyedjoe said:
I'm not so sure if I have to giggle, laugh or roll on the floor. Bringing your own cue in bar during a night out is odd enough, bringing a jump cue too.

John Barton, I think there is really hope for a golf-size bag, room for break cue, back-up shooting cue, and your own bridge.
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Mustn't have seen my previous post clarifying the nature of the beast in that bar. That's one beastly bar.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
FYI, the locations I play in don't allow jump cues. Against the rules, so I guess I'm not handicapping myself too much. Some owners value the cloth on their tables, and aren't willing to run the risk that you jump as good as you say you do.
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Lots of places have those signs posted disallowing jump shots, but look the other way if you know what you are doing.


Ditto for the "No gambling" stuff...
 
I'm gonna fix all of this. "Two Shot Pushout" This one shot foul has helped the weaker players.
 
Flex said:
One night at a bar we're playing on an old Brunswick 9 footer. Winner stays on the table for free -- playing this chick. 8 ball's the game. Running some balls, I hook myself. Pull out the jump cue, and jump bank a ball in the called pocket. Chick gets all teary eyed, and almost starts crying. Did I win that game? Sure did.

Some of the reponses to this thread remind me of that wet eyed girl...

Flex
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I think people missed my entire point of this topic. I know that players use jump cues. What I'd like to see is some rule changes to reflect their use. Golfers are restricted to 14 clubs in their bags. If they choose to carry a lob wedge, they need to get rid of a club to take it's place. If you choose to use a jump cue, then get rid of a breaker. Or, accept some penalties that will be enforced should you use it unsuccessfully. The fact that I need to tighten up my safety game should go hand in hand with the fact that you should only be allowed a limited number of jump shots per match. If you want to use the prop, do so at a price. Three fouls, loss of match. Declared safeties that don't allow the jump cue to be used on the next shot. I'm merely offering a counterview for people that don't like the jump cue. I'm not alone. There are a lot of us that hate it. So, make it an even playing field for those of us that don't like them.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Just so we're clear - you pulled out a jump cue in a bar? Like, whole bar is using those crappy house cues and you brought the 3x6 case?
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HA HA HA HA HA HA ..........

nice one jude:D
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
I think people missed my entire point of this topic. I know that players use jump cues. What I'd like to see is some rule changes to reflect their use. Golfers are restricted to 14 clubs in their bags. If they choose to carry a lob wedge, they need to get rid of a club to take it's place. If you choose to use a jump cue, then get rid of a breaker. Or, accept some penalties that will be enforced should you use it unsuccessfully. The fact that I need to tighten up my safety game should go hand in hand with the fact that you should only be allowed a limited number of jump shots per match. If you want to use the prop, do so at a price. Three fouls, loss of match. Declared safeties that don't allow the jump cue to be used on the next shot. I'm merely offering a counterview for people that don't like the jump cue. I'm not alone. There are a lot of us that hate it. So, make it an even playing field for those of us that don't like them.
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There are lots of things I don't like, for instance the ability of top players to play lock up safeties on me, then get ball in hand and run out the table. It's life. You can't always get what you want.

If you want to make the field more even, learn to jump. I did, not because I particularly liked it, but out of necessity. Actually I much prefer to see a beautiful 3 rail kick shot than a jump shot. But jumping, with either a full length cue, or a jump cue, is part of my game. I've worked hard to make it work for me. Why do you want to penalize me for a skill I've worked very, very hard to acquire?

Flex

Flex
 
Flex said:
Lots of places have those signs posted disallowing jump shots, but look the other way if you know what you are doing.


Ditto for the "No gambling" stuff...
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In the league I play it, it's a foul. You jump the ball, it's a BIH foul. Doesn't matter what the sign on the wall says. Jump shots are banned. Both leagues I played in (CPA and BCA) had this rule. Before JB hops in on the BCA bit, the room owner has the ultimate say as to what will and will not be done on their tables. The owner of the room I played it didn't allow jumps. So, although the Vegas tourney allows them, we didn't. Therefore, I only ever need to carry my jump cue when I play semi-pro events. I played two last year, and I used a jump cue. That doesn't mean I accept them. If given the choice between using it, or sacrificing it under my rule changes, I'd play without it. What little advantage I lose by giving it up, I make up for it by taking it out of my opponent's hand at key moments in a match. Flex's post also made me think about one other one - you hook yourself, no jumper. Punishment for poor position play. It's like shanking one into the rough. Maybe golfers should be allowed to put a chainsaw in their bags as one club. "If I move this tree, I should have a shot".
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
In the league I play it, it's a foul. You jump the ball, it's a BIH foul. Doesn't matter what the sign on the wall says. Jump shots are banned. Both leagues I played in (CPA and BCA) had this rule. Before JB hops in on the BCA bit, the room owner has the ultimate say as to what will and will not be done on their tables. The owner of the room I played it didn't allow jumps. So, although the Vegas tourney allows them, we didn't. Therefore, I only ever need to carry my jump cue when I play semi-pro events. I played two last year, and I used a jump cue. That doesn't mean I accept them. If given the choice between using it, or sacrificing it under my rule changes, I'd play without it. What little advantage I lose by giving it up, I make up for it by taking it out of my opponent's hand at key moments in a match. Flex's post also made me think about one other one - you hook yourself, no jumper. Punishment for poor position play. It's like shanking one into the rough. Maybe golfers should be allowed to put a chainsaw in their bags as one club. "If I move this tree, I should have a shot".
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Tell me, Shawn... Have you ever been really burned by someone using a jump cue?
 
Flex said:
Tell me, Shawn... Have you ever been really burned by someone using a jump cue?
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Flex, how long have you been playing pool? This might help us understand perhaps why you don't have a problem with jump cues.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
In the league I play it, it's a foul. You jump the ball, it's a BIH foul. Doesn't matter what the sign on the wall says. Jump shots are banned.
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There's a tournament at the Ten Cat bar I mentioned where jump cues are not allowed, nor are any masses where the hand is elevated above the shoulder.

Guess how many times I've entered that tournament?

Zero.

Not gonna change. Am I a particularly skilled player? Not by a long shot, but I can jump a bit.

Flex
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Flex, how long have you been playing pool? This might help us understand perhaps why you don't have a problem with jump cues.
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If I were to say that I started when I was 16, that would be technically correct. I'm now past the half century mark.

Playing seriously? A little over 4 years.

Flex
 
Flex said:
There are lots of things I don't like, for instance the ability of top players to play lock up safeties on me, then get ball in hand and run out the table. It's life. You can't always get what you want.

If you want to make the field more even, learn to jump. I did, not because I particularly liked it, but out of necessity. Actually I much prefer to see a beautiful 3 rail kick shot than a jump shot. But jumping, with either a full length cue, or a jump cue, is part of my game. I've worked hard to make it work for me. Why do you want to penalize me for a skill I've worked very, very hard to acquire?

Flex

Flex
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Again, the implication that I don't know how to jump. I do. I jump well. The problem is, balls are obstacles. You are supposed to stay away from the wrong side of them. Now, it's merely an inconvenience. Oops, I hooked myself. No problem. I'll just go to my bag, get out the prop, and hit it. Hey, look, it slopped in. Boo ya. Do you think it was an accident that the rails were made at a height of just slightly over the centre of the balls? That was done on purpose. They assumed the ball would be staying on the cloth. Perhaps we should, in the interest of making the game better, allow the top of the rail to be extended to allow jump shots a backboard, kind of like a squash court. If we're going to make a 3 dimensional game (since jumps are allowed), the tables should reflect this as well.
 
Numbers

Shawn Armstrong said:
And I don't think you understand how much of an improvement the basic jump shot can make to a mediocre player's game. When it comes to kicking, you can position the ball to take basis rail targets out of the equation. Sure, if you know english and practice, you know how to shorten with draw, or stretch the angle with side. For the most part, 95% of jump shots are jacked up and shooting STRAIGHT at the target ball. There is the odd jump kick. But when kicking, there are so many other things to discuss. Take, for example, a cueball that is 9" behind a blocker. If I am playing a mediocre player that doesn't kick well, I can choose my cueball position when playing safe to leave him bad angles he isn't able to kick out of. One inch makes a huge difference in cutting of rails and angles into them. So, 9" behind the blocker or 8" behind the blocker makes a huge difference in kicking, and the angles available. If you can jump a ball that is 8" away, you can jump one that's 9" away. You have to learn one shot that covered off a plethora of scenarios. I agree, there are subtleties to great jump shots. However, if you are able to learn the dart stroke with some proficiency, you have "mastered" 80% of jumping in the game. And that, as Grady says, is lamentable.
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Wait you went from "any monkey clown can do it" to "if you are able to learn the dart stroke with some proficiency", that's a lot of ground for you to cross pardner you may want to rest your horse for a while.

I think using your logic it would be fair to say that anyone who learns the diamond system has mastered 80% of kicking. Should we ban the books and tapes on the diamond system? Grady you're out of business, sorry. I mean before all these authors started spilling the beans it was only the few who had access to the holy church of how to accurately figure a kick. All others were told "ya just have to feel it."

Let's see, in normal shot the player has to figure, aim, speed, and spin. In a kick shot the player has to figure aim, angle, spin, and speed. In a jump shot the player has to figure, aim, trajectory, speed, and spin. I fail to see where the major difference is. It seems far easier with the diamond system as a guide among dozens of other systems to learn to kick consistently than it is to learn to jump with no such books and tapes available.

I still don't understand however WHY you want to make this a jumping vs. kicking thing.
 
elite1206 said:
Probably by someone who gave him a big handicap by only using jump cue, no break or play cues :rolleyes:
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Hey, I've played a game or two only using a jump cue. Using center ball and high ball, a runout game can be built. Plus one of my jump cues (Stealth) has a regular leather tip on it. Man, can that combo play.

Flex
 
Flex said:
Tell me, Shawn... Have you ever been really burned by someone using a jump cue?
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Nope. I've burned people with them. Felt cheap. Takes the purity out of the game.

I won $200 on a proposition shot with a jump cue. Someone was harping on me because I hated jump cues. He bet me $100 that I couldn't jump to save my life. He set up the cueball 5 inches behind a blocker, gave me his Bunjee, and said "jump it, I'll give you three tries". I asked him if he wanted to double it if I did it first try. Easiest $200 I've ever made. And, yes, I still hate jump cues.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Nope. I've burned people with them. Felt cheap. Takes the purity out of the game.

I won $200 on a proposition shot with a jump cue. Someone was harping on me because I hated jump cues. He bet me $100 that I couldn't jump to save my life. He set up the cueball 5 inches behind a blocker, gave me his Bunjee, and said "jump it, I'll give you three tries". I asked him if he wanted to double it if I did it first try. Easiest $200 I've ever made. And, yes, I still hate jump cues.
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What a sucker he was to lay that one on you... :D

Hmm.... maybe I'll get on this bandwagon and start attacking jump cues too. Do you think I could get some action like you got?

Flex
 
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