The slip stroke; not its definition, but its purpose

[sfleinen]

ummm, we already talked about this video in the other thread. To summarize (for the dilettantes who did not stick with it): yes, Mosconi sometimes used a small slip stroke, somewhere between rarely and occasionally. That means he has a slip stroke in his tool box but he was not a slip stroke player in the same sense that that descriptor could be applied to Cowboy Jimmy Moore or Cornbread.

Lou Figueroa

Lou:

You and I disagree on how often (or how rarely) Mosconi used a slip stroke, but I'll back you up in the notion that Willie wasn't a slip stroke player in the same sense as Cowboy Jimmy Moore or Cornbread Red (or even Johnny Ervolino). That backing, though, doesn't mean that Willie's adjustment "wasn't a slip stroke because it's not of the caliber of Cowboy or Cornbread" (which is a dangerous "all or nothing" conclusion). A slip readjustment on the back swing for the delivery stroke, no matter how small, is a slip stroke.

Willie had the slip stroke in his toolbox, and he pulled it out on occasion. Much of the time, though, Willie's hand was pinned to the grip (no slip), and this is evident in the short, punchy strokes where he needed to hold the cue ball (foundational skill in 14.1). Where he has to move the cue ball, is where you'll see him reach into his toolbox and use it.

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Watch this video of Efren playing. Notice at 2:00 - 2:06 and see what he does with his back hand.

This is not a "slip stroke" like Cornbread used to do, however, it accomplishes many of the same things......many players do this, it's just not detectable until you are made aware of it.

LINK TO EFREN REYES VIDEO - NOTICE 2:00 - 2:06

All I saw there, was Efren bouncing the cue backwards in his grip hand until it was where he wanted it to be. Then, for the delivery stroke, his grip hand is pinned on the pull back and follow through. That is NOT a slip stroke.

Like Lou mentions (and as discussed in the "Mosconin [sic] stance" thread), many players including himself do that. I do that as well, because I'm a somewhat wristy player. A slip stroke is a slip stroke only when that readjustment takes place on the actual delivery stroke -- during the pull back specifically.

Watch here (this link cheat will take you to the 5:40 mark in the video where Tor discusses the slip stroke):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VODQn8GtrMA#t=5m40s

I know you're not an avid fan of watching other knowledge resource videos, CJ, but I really recommend you watch this.

And other folks as well. As with the other thread, those of us who know what a slip stroke is / use or have used one, are seeing some really weird definitions / perceptions of what a slip stroke is -- most of them WRONG. Efren's "bouncing of the cue to find his grip sweet spot" is NOT a slip stroke.

In pinch, here's some rainy-day reading -- my own slip stroke tutorial:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2164385#post2164385

-Sean

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Hmm... that's a head-scratching conclusion. Irish linen is a lot more slippery than a gloss finish. (The latter tends to "stick" to skin -- which is called "tack" -- unless you use corn starch or something to break the tack.) Most of the folks I've seen use a slip stroke, used irish linen. Wrapless cues are not easy to execute a slip stroke with, especially if the skin is slightly moist. It can be done, however, and Tor Lowry's video explains how (he mentions the corn starch).

-Sean

Sean, I've been playing around with this stroke for the past few days and I've been having a devil of a time getting the butt to slip through my fingers easily. Then I remembered awhile back I rubbed the linen with beeswax to increase the tack of the grip for my normal stoke. Lol

BTW I finally got through that tutorial you posted a few years ago. Wow! Nice work! I like how you also brought up the "surprise" hit on the CB. I swear I came up with that point independently, but you did beat me to the punch by, oh, four or five years or so.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it accomplishes many of the same things

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
Watch this video of Efren playing. Notice at 2:00 - 2:06 and see what he does with his back hand.

This is not a "slip stroke" like Cornbread used to do, however, it accomplishes many of the same things......many players do this, it's just not detectable until you are made aware of it.

LINK TO EFREN REYES VIDEO - NOTICE 2:00 - 2:06

All I saw there, was Efren bouncing the cue backwards in his grip hand until it was where he wanted it to be. Then, for the delivery stroke, his grip hand is pinned on the pull back and follow through. That is NOT a slip stroke.


-Sean

I guess It should have been better clarified that it was not a "slip stroke".

 

[sfleinen]

I guess It should have been better clarified that it was not a "slip stroke".

The problem is you mentioned "it is not a slip stroke like Cornbread used to do" -- which, if you've been following along, you'll notice that people have been doing one of two things: 1.) claim that even though it's not to same "slip-to-the-butt" stroke, it's a slip stroke nonetheless (wrong!), and 2.) people identifying any type of juggling/bouncing the cue in the grip hands prior to settling into a delivery stroke as a "slip stroke" (wrong also!).

And, it doesn't "accomplish many of the same things" as you wrote. The slip stroke does what it does, and has its own category completely separate from bouncing the cue to find your grip sweet spot.

So I stand by what I wrote -- if not for your wording, then for the general readership.

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

That's funny.

I say he slipped to get a little upstroke. :wink:

Glad you caught that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, almost every upper level pool player has used, or at least experimented with the slip-stroke !..As for myself, I developed it almost exclusively from the start... During my 9-ball days, I did not think there was any better method of playing, as did most of my peers !

However, as my game progressed to golf and one pocket, I found that the delicate touch shots necessary for those games, became much more unreliable using a slip-stroke, and I guess I eventually phased it out of my stroke..I obviously can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I don't think I would have enjoyed what success I have had, had I not gone to the more conventional style of gripping the club !..Bottom line, less movement... ..less can go wrong with the delicate shots !

SJD---BTW, what do Mosconi and Moore know about it ?..They never even learned to spell 'One Pocket' ! :thumbup: (sorry, thought I was on 1P.org )

SJD, I think that we've all probably played around with it. It's not so easy to do for most of us, so we discard it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

That's what I believe the advantage is, to reduce flaws in the backstroke. What's interesting about Mosconi is he played with a wrap and used the slip stroke. I imagine if you compiled a list of guys who used it most of them used a wrapless cue.

hmmmmm, no. A properly executed Cortland linen wrap is quite slick. Maybe if the unwrapped cue had an oil finish.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou:

You and I disagree on how often (or how rarely) Mosconi used a slip stroke, but I'll back you up in the notion that Willie wasn't a slip stroke player in the same sense as Cowboy Jimmy Moore or Cornbread Red (or even Johnny Ervolino). That backing, though, doesn't mean that Willie's adjustment "wasn't a slip stroke because it's not of the caliber of Cowboy or Cornbread" (which is a dangerous "all or nothing" conclusion). A slip readjustment on the back swing for the delivery stroke, no matter how small, is a slip stroke.

Willie had the slip stroke in his toolbox, and he pulled it out on occasion. Much of the time, though, Willie's hand was pinned to the grip (no slip), and this is evident in the short, punchy strokes where he needed to hold the cue ball (foundational skill in 14.1). Where he has to move the cue ball, is where you'll see him reach into his toolbox and use it.

-Sean

Sean, I have no problem with anything you wrote in the above post.

Lou Figueroa
let there be peace
in the valley

 

[lfigueroa]

The problem is you mentioned "it is not a slip stroke like Cornbread used to do" -- which, if you've been following along, you'll notice that people have been doing one of two things: 1.) claim that even though it's not to same "slip-to-the-butt" stroke, it's a slip stroke nonetheless (wrong!), and 2.) people identifying any type of juggling/bouncing the cue in the grip hands prior to settling into a delivery stroke as a "slip stroke" (wrong also!).

And, it doesn't "accomplish many of the same things" as you wrote (which you conveniently snipped in your reply to me, btw). The slip stroke does what it does, and has its own category completely separate from bouncing the cue to find your grip sweet spot.

So I stand by what I wrote -- if not for your wording, then for the general readership.

-Sean

lol. You think he's been following the discussion amongst mere mortals?

Lou Figueroa

 

[sfleinen]

Sean, I have no problem with anything you wrote in the above post.

Lou Figueroa
let there be peace
in the valley

I agree, Lou. I'll tell ya, if not for anything else, these two threads, I think, have served a great purpose in dispelling long-held notions of what a slip stroke is and isn't. All good in the end!

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

lol. You think he's been following the discussion amongst mere mortals?

Lou Figueroa

<chuckle> No, I don't think so -- unless it presents an "opportunity" .

BTW, I had an eye fart with the "conveniently snipped" comment -- I fixed that from the version you quoted.

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

I agree, Lou. I'll tell ya, if not for anything else, these two threads, I think, have served a great purpose in dispelling long-held notions of what a slip stroke is and isn't. All good in the end!

-Sean

Really, Sean?

Just wait. Two months from now someone too lazy to do a search will crank this all up one more time. It's like a bad "Twilight Zone" episode where they just keep playing "The Lawrence Welk Show" over and over.

Lou Figueroa

 

[sfleinen]

Really, Sean?

Just wait. Two months from now someone too lazy to do a search will crank this all up one more time. It's like a bad "Twilight Zone" episode where they just keep playing "The Lawrence Welk Show" over and over.

Lou Figueroa

Sh*t. <runs out of room pulling his hair out, screaming...>

 

[CJ Wiley]

Players all over the country will start to "TOSS" their cues.

When I played mainly 14.1 and a LOT if small strokes, I held the cue VERY lightly ! Often the consequence of that was the cue would slip forward through my grip hand....so yes, I have a slip stoke on softly hit shots!

I have not heard of the slip stroke done in this manner.

The rule of thumb with the slip stroke is "the hand finishes where the hand begins". This is how Cornbread phrased it anyway. This may take a demonstration to understand, I know it did for me.

Maybe we could do a video, what could we call it?

Hmmm, how about TOSS (Touch of Slip Stroke). Players all over the country will start to "TOSS" their cues. :groucho:

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Maybe we could do a video, what could we call it?

Hmmm, how about TOSS (Touch of Slip Stroke). Players all over the country will start to "TOSS" their cues. :groucho:

So, you won't be offended if one of us calls you a tosser?

 

[tonythetiger583]

I don't know if it's been talked about yet, but I feel like some people are talking about a slip stroke, and some are talking about a reverse slip stroke.

I think a regular slip stroke, is when your grip moves back on the butt of the cue, during the back-swing before accelerating forward. A reverse slip stroke is a normal back-swing, and a releasing and re-gripping of the cue during the follow-through.

I think I remember reading two reasons for using a regular slip stroke that made sense.

1. A Pendulum stroke is timed so that you are hitting the cue-ball, at the bottom of your swing and at the peak of acceleration. If not timed correctly, your cue will begin to slow down before impact.
A slip-stroke gives you that extra bit, to ensure that you aren't beginning to decelerate at the moment of impact, allowing you to accelerate cleanly through the cue-ball.

2. Because you're cue can't be touching or moving through the cue-ball during the warm-up strokes, however many millimeters before you hit the cue-ball, as well as the point of contact with the cue-ball is essentially uncharted territory. It is territory that you did not really practice during your warm-up strokes, so however small the chance, there could be a hitch in your stroke that you aren't aware within this area.

If you use a slip stroke, it makes up for that distance by bringing it within the range that your arm was actually moving, while you were doing your warm-ups.

Sorry if this is repeat information.

(Also, from watching the Willie Video, I think he's just choked up on the cue for most finesse shots, and anything requiring a bit more power, he slips his hand into a more 90 degree angle. I don't know if it counts as a slip-stroke, because he seems to just be moving into a more traditional pendulum stroke. I also don't think I watched him shoot enough shots, nor do I know enough about slip strokes to make any sort of call).

 

[cfrandy]

Taking any variables out of your stroke is the best advice for most players. It's a lot like chipping or putting in golf...is it easier to gauge how far a ball will roll or how far a ball will fly (chipping)? Consistent putting comes from NOT breaking the wrists at impact.
The pros can get away with a lot more than amateurs!

 

[CJ Wiley]

from experience I know that it was just "beginner's luck"

So, you won't be offended if one of us calls you a tosser?

I never used the slip stoke although I do something that's just as effective.

Last night I was at a league bar and was ask to play some 8 Ball on the 9' table. It was freezing cold, so my cue was the same temperature as loucifer's heart. It didn't feel right in my hand being so cold, so I decided to use a slip-stroke, just for shots and grins.

As luck would have it I broke really well and ran the first 5 racks in a row, then missed an easy out on the 6th.....then ran two more right after that. I was almost convinced, however, from experience I know that it was just "beginner's luck".

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

As luck would have it I broke really well and ran the first 5 racks in a row, then missed an easy out on the 6th.....then ran two more right after that. I was almost convinced, however, from experience I know that it was just "beginner's luck".

I'm not convinced. Give it a bit more, it may turn out to be fantastic for you. How would you find that out if you just dismiss it as a fluke? Never, ever toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Personally, I think the reason so many great players used it in the past was because they were already great players. It's not a stroke for guys with otherwise poor fundamentals.

You are still a great player, even if you aren't up there in the limelight at the present. It's players of your caliber who will be able to extract all it offers, not the dilettantes like myself who try it just to see what it's all about. It doesn't have to replace your regular stroke. You can master it and then just pull it out when the situation calls for it. Just like Mosconi did.