The slip stroke; not its definition, but its purpose

[Patrick Johnson]

Two things come to mind. Can there be more acceleration by adding a portion of the cue stick's weight to the stroke, therefore more power,

I don't think grip hand position has anything to do with how much of the cue's weight is "effective" in the stroke - but even if it does matter, why is moving your hand there during the shot better than starting with it there?

and/or lessening the physical distance of the backswing and increasing the chance for a truer, more efficient forward movement?

If you mean the cue moves less (I don't think the hand moves less), then I'd buy this idea as a corrective measure for a stroke that has a wavering backswing - but I'd rather not need the correction.

pj
chgo

 

[arnaldo]

Arnaldo:

Actually, that was one of the points I made in my 2009 tutorial on the slip stroke:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2164385#post2164385

-Sean

-------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks a great deal for that link to your truly sine qua non slip stroke tutorial, Sean, and after reading that entire thread (posted before my AZB membership days) I can certainly see that you indeed mentioned SP's delivery stroke impact "surprise" concept 6 years ago, as well as covering virtually every other rationale for, and approach to, the slip stroke.

Your characteristic thoroughness in various of your tutorials is always quite amazing to behold and very much appreciated.

I've also adopted the snooker (frontal) stance you once thoroughly elaborated upon and have found that in my case it's much easier on my old knees, thereby more comfortably enabling much longer playing sessions.

Arnaldo

 

[BeiberLvr]

Two things come to mind. Can there be more acceleration by adding a portion of the cue stick's weight to the stroke, therefore more power, and/or lessening the physical distance of the backswing and increasing the chance for a truer, more efficient forward movement?

Best,
Mike

I don't see how a slip stroke adds anything since the slip happens during the backswing. The forward motion is business as usual.

Now a stroke slip where you release during the forward swing, effectively "throwing" the cue, is a different story.

I guess the question becomes can the cue move faster when it's released during the forward motion vs. being held by the grip hand? Look at baseball pitchers that throw 90 mph fastballs. Are there arms actually moving that fast, or is the speed picked up as the ball is travelling?

If it's the latter, then that answers the first question. However, you have to remember a baseball has a great distance to travel to reach the mound and pick up speed. The cue doesn't have to travel much from end of backswing to impact, so even if "throwing" the cue does add more speed. The amount may be negligible.

 

[PoolBoy1]

There is no purpose to the slip stroke. It is re-inventing the wheel. Some athletes can;'t do what the crowd does. So they invent options. Ala the slip stroke. I seen Efren actually pump the cue in a rocking motion rather than back and forward in a straight line or near one. He looks very comfortable doing it. Some players don't hit the cue ball where it is aimed. But will aim at middle of cue ball and during stroke re-route it to the bottom for draw. The whole purpose is to put a ball into a pocket aimed at. No matter the stroke or stance. Books are written and video's are for the sheep that haven't figured it out.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don't see how a slip stroke adds anything since the slip happens during the backswing. The forward motion is business as usual.

Now a stroke slip where you release during the forward swing, effectively "throwing" the cue, is a different story.

I guess the question becomes can the cue move faster when it's released during the forward motion vs. being held by the grip hand? Look at baseball pitchers that throw 90 mph fastballs. Are there arms actually moving that fast, or is the speed picked up as the ball is travelling?

If it's the latter, then that answers the first question. However, you have to remember a baseball has a great distance to travel to reach the mound and pick up speed. The cue doesn't have to travel much from end of backswing to impact, so even if "throwing" the cue does add more speed. The amount may be negligible.

I've never used a 'stroke slip' & thrown the cue to increase velocity over that of what can be had with my normal stroke. It's not about increased velocity but about continued acceleration all the way through contact. In fact, FOR ME, it's sort of been the opposite, I can make a more normal arm motion and release the cue early so that it does not have my arm motion on it when it hits the ball. My arm mass, or portion thereof is 'completely' detached from the cue.

To me, it sort of reminds me of a change up in baseball to stay with the baseball analogy.

Best 2 All,
Rick

 

[Mikjary]

I don't think grip hand position has anything to do with how much of the cue's weight is "effective" in the stroke - but even if it does matter, why is moving your hand there during the shot better than starting with it there?

True. But what about some players with a 6 to 8 inch slip stroke? And would a player that relies on a gripping type of stroke like MD benefit by using their hands instead of the arm movement?

If you mean the cue moves less (I don't think the hand moves less), then I'd buy this idea as a corrective measure for a stroke that has a wavering backswing - but I'd rather not need the correction.

pj
chgo

I think the hand actually moves more. It starts in the finish position which is past the point of cue ball contact in the follow through area. I do think the cue moves less because the intended backswing of the arm stops at the same place, but the cue stick has travelled less rearward.

I'd rather neither one of us need the u turn backswing protection. Life's too short!

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've never used a 'stroke slip' & thrown the cue to increase velocity over that of what can be had with my normal stroke. It's not about increased velocity but about continued acceleration all the way through contact. In fact, FOR ME, it's sort of been the opposite, I can make a more normal arm motion and release the cue early so that it does not have my arm motion on it when it hits the ball. My arm mass, or portion thereof is 'completely' detached from the cue.

Actually, as soon as the cue is released it stops accelerating, so "throwing" it ensures it doesn't accelerate all the way through contact.

But it turns out this is good because a "coasting" cue isn't rapidly changing speed, so it's easier to predict the speed with which it will hit the CB. In fact, one of the reasons the bottom of the stroke arc is the best place to hit the CB is that it's where the stroke is coasting a bit before beginning to decelerate, and speed control is easiest with or without "throwing".

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

I don't see how a slip stroke adds anything since the slip happens during the backswing. The forward motion is business as usual.

Now a stroke slip where you release during the forward swing, effectively "throwing" the cue, is a different story.

I think Efren is the guy to watch with this type of stroke, et al.

I guess the question becomes can the cue move faster when it's released during the forward motion vs. being held by the grip hand? Look at baseball pitchers that throw 90 mph fastballs. Are there arms actually moving that fast, or is the speed picked up as the ball is travelling?

In my experience, the last parts in the throwingmotion are moving nearly and at that speed with which the ball is thrown. The release is the apex, speed wise, of the throw and it decelerates at the plate. The question's been brought up before, do we measure a heater at the release point or at the plate? The release point can be 6-7 miles faster than at the plate. The angle used in measuring also affects the outcome.

If it's the latter, then that answers the first question. However, you have to remember a baseball has a great distance to travel to reach the mound and pick up speed. The cue doesn't have to travel much from end of backswing to impact, so even if "throwing" the cue does add more speed. The amount may be negligible.

Yep. I don't think throwing the cue'll do more than a good stroke as far as speed is concerned.

Best,
Mike

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I guess the question becomes can the cue move faster when it's released during the forward motion vs. being held by the grip hand? Look at baseball pitchers that throw 90 mph fastballs. Are there arms actually moving that fast, or is the speed picked up as the ball is travelling?

Let me guess. You and CJ had the same physics teacher, right?

 

[Mikjary]

Let me guess. You and CJ had the same physics teacher, right?

Actually, there was a common school of thought that the rotation of the baseball played a part in allowing it to move faster after its release. The methods tested were the 2 and 4 seam fastball pitches and how they affected the travel of the ball through the air.

While the 4 seam fastball's rotation allowed for less restriction in speed and was found to travel faster than the 2 seam fastball, neither were found to move faster than the original release velocity. No amount of spin was found to get enough of a gearing effect to overcome the air friction.

Best,
Mike

 

[BeiberLvr]

Let me guess. You and CJ had the same physics teacher, right?

Let me guess. You missed the class on reading comprehension?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Actually, as soon as the cue is released it stops accelerating, so "throwing" it ensures it doesn't accelerate all the way through contact.

But it turns out this is good because a "coasting" cue isn't rapidly changing speed, so it's easier to predict the speed with which it will hit the CB. In fact, one of the reasons the bottom of the stroke arc is the best place to hit the CB is that it's where the stroke is coasting a bit before beginning to decelerate, and speed control is easiest with or without "throwing".

pj
chgo

Patrick,

Naturally you're correct. I was not clear at all. I guess Beiber's post of getting increased baseball speed must have twisted my mind. In general it's about trying to accelerate into contact & not decelerating, at least for me.

For the 'stroke slip' the loss of acceleration is why I sort of relate it to a changeup in baseball. The arm moves 'fast' but the propelling components of connection are diminished & hence a slower ball (or cue) relative to the arm speed.

Have you seen the graph charting the acceleration, abrupt deceleration, & renewed acceleration of a 'normal' cue stroke?

Best,
Rick

PS I don't use a pendulum stroke nor the curved finger cradle grip.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Two things come to mind. Can there be more acceleration by adding a portion of the cue stick's weight to the stroke, therefore more power, and/or lessening the physical distance of the backswing and increasing the chance for a truer, more efficient forward movement?

Best,
Mike

Mike, you use the stroke on occasion. Do you feel it aids you in accerating the cue? Do you feel it smooths out the transition from backstroke to forward stroke? IMO that alone could lead to better acceleration with less effort. These things always come down to timing in my experience. Maybe the slip stroke just gives better stroke timing for some folks.

 

[AtLarge]

stroke slip ... I guess the question becomes can the cue move faster when it's released during the forward motion vs. being held by the grip hand? ...

The purpose of a stroke slip (a "throw") is not to achieve greater cue speed, it is to minimize the likelihood of steering, twisting, jerking, or turning the stick as the CB is struck.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The purpose of a stroke slip (a "throw") is not to achieve greater cue speed, it is to minimize the likelihood of steering, twisting, jerking, or turning the stick as the CB is struck.

Those are certainly the common reasons but I do it occasionally to give my hand & forearm a breather from the increased firmness of grip since using TOI & to sort of deaden the hit a bit but still use a similar arm motion as normal. Also sometimes for the reasons you listed on some of those long straight in shots.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

the slip-stoke is an advantage on the bigger tables because of the extra power

When I ran with Bobby Cotton, he had nothing, but good things to say about Red. One of his mentors. He showed him a few things that he later showed me. Not all, but some. :wink:

GL, with the inside heat at Volcanoes. I don't want to hear about the outside heat!!! :grin:

Best,
Mike

Bobby would know, he was around the big action a lot in those days.

Cornbread Red was a stone, cold, killer for the big money, and he took off some huge scores playing one-pocket on the snooker table.

He also played really well on the 10' table, the slip-stoke is an advantage on the bigger tables because of the extra power that's generated without sacrificing precision.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I use the slip stroke when I think my timing is off and I won't come into the cue ball with the right amount of acceleration. The adjustment on the cue length in mid-stroke allows you to make up the acceleration without forcing your stroke and making you veer off line.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the slip-stoke is an advantage on the bigger tables because of the extra power that's generated without sacrificing precision.

I don't believe "extra power" is generated with a slip stroke. How do you think that would work?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I use the slip stroke when I think my timing is off and I won't come into the cue ball with the right amount of acceleration. The adjustment on the cue length in mid-stroke allows you to make up the acceleration without forcing your stroke and making you veer off line.

How does a slip stroke "allow you to make up the acceleration"?

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

Originally Posted by AtLarge
The purpose of a stroke slip (a "throw") is not to achieve greater cue speed, it is to minimize the likelihood of steering, twisting, jerking, or turning the stick as the CB is struck.

I can't find the original post but I totally agree with the above quote. I can't comment on the slip stroke, however, I have extensively studied the release stroke ---which you are all referring to as the stroke slip---.

Releasing the cue in the forward stroke requires a technique that must be practiced and refined, but if one can master it and trust letting-go, it provides a pure and accurate hit, unencumbered by any unwanted movement the player may apply with the grip hand.

This works especially well where the margin for error on a particular shot has been greatly decreased, such as shooting at a half-blocked pocket or finessing a shot for delicate position.

My friend, Gene Nagy (RIP) who was a great experimenter and a great contributor to the overall knowledge of our game, spent at least a year completely throwing the cue on every shot. He mastered the technique of the throw to where it didn't affect the other balls on the table in the release, as the cue must be unencumbered right at impact and often fell to the table in the follow through.

From that, came a modified version of the release where a regrab is incorporated right after impact. It's tricky and it's difficult to learn but it's worth it. I use it on low percentage shots and situations.