The straight pool tournament

[enzo]

I'm not that business savvy, but I imagine there will be about 500 or maybe 1000 spectators at the event (different people, some will come more than one day). Out of 1000 people, how many would buy at least the low-end Sneaky Pete Predator? How much would it cost for Predator to be there? Predator already sponsors a bunch of tournaments, and maybe they will this one, too.
But I'm not sure how much you could ask them to put in, based on direct sales at the tournament.

Now if ESPN picked up the event....

in my limited experience in advertising, a target for marketers is what is called "opinion leaders." if you don't already know, this is just people who can be very influencial to a lot of other potential customers. first, people who go to this tournament will tend to be opinion leaders (this is true in any field, if you have a remote controlled airplane expo, 90% of the people there will be very into it and probably be opinion leaders). i believe that if you take those 1000 people you mentioned, if they are exposed to a product that they otherwise would not have been, there could be a huge and growing impact. another note, this will tend to be the cheapest type of advertising. get the opinion leaders and you don't have to pay 100's of thousands in advertising, but could get the same effect.

for example, maybe predator went to an event like this 15 years ago, paid somebody like $200 to st up a stand, now they are a huge company. anyway, just something to think about. i'm definitely no expert either. more thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[cueball1950]

I know that Mike Zuglan "WAS" NEVER asked to play. contrary to popular belief. i told the man with the money to call Mike and verify this but he did not. he took Dragons word that Mike had indeed been invited when all he really saw was a list of probable entrants with mike's name on it. well he never called mike to verify this so apparently he don't want to hear the truth. and i for one am glad that 14.1 is being played again like this..................................mike

 

[Gerry]

Hey Gerry....I've got to correct your severe mental lapse here....

....as anyone who has reached the highest pinnacles of the glory that is the game of pool would know...The greatest game in the world is ONE POCKET !

ps, I'm thinking of telling Steve Booth about this, and until you come to your senses, maybe putting you on probation over at onepocket.org. ^_^

Your killing me Ghost!.......But I'm gonna have to take my lashings over there, because I played 14.1 for 10 years before ever learning the great game of 1 pocket. The funny thing is, I play better 1 pocket than I do straight pool!......go figure

BTW......do I know you?.........

Gerry

 

[NYC cue dude]

straight pool

You guys kill me. Some pros appoached me about a straight pool tournament. Said there hasn't been a world championship in 5 years. I said, "how much you need"?

Finally agreed to DONATE $20,000.00 for the prize fund. Optimal word here is Donate! Agreed to give the money without the possibility of any return.

I gues that is not good enough for some of you. Perhaps my critics can list all of thier efforts to advance pool.

As for Mike Zuglan, he is on the invite list, but nothing has changed since the last thread on this matter.

Only UPA touring pros and some other notables have been invited. A majority of the players have not received their invites yet BECAUSE A SPECIFIC VENUE HAS NOT BEEN DECLARED. That will change in the next week or so.

Can't help but feel some on here are so incredibly ungrateful. leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

Randy

 

[Donovan]

You guys kill me. Some pros approached me about a straight pool tournament. Said there hasn't been a world championship in 5 years. I said, "how much you need"?

Finally agreed to DONATE $20,000.00 for the prize fund. Optimal word here is Donate! Agreed to give the money without the possibility of any return.

I guess that is not good enough for some of you. Perhaps my critics can list all of their efforts to advance pool.

As for Mike Zuglan, he is on the invite list, but nothing has changed since the last thread on this matter.

Only UPA touring pros and some other notables have been invited. A majority of the players have not received their invites yet BECAUSE A SPECIFIC VENUE HAS NOT BEEN DECLARED. That will change in the next week or so.

Can't help but feel some on here are so incredibly ungrateful. leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

Randy

Randy,

I don't think anyone feels that you have not done a great justice to our sport or the 14.1 game. I know some of us just felt that with there being such a big invite and there being such a small number of "Open" entries, that it makes it tough financially for someone to really get in without an invite.

I love 14.1. I love that we are going to see it again. I love that you did this for nothing. Things have to start somewhere and you have given it a chance. WE ARE ALL APPRECIATIVE OF THAT!

I wouldn't take the comments you see here as anything against you personally or what you have done. It is more directed toward how the selection process was designed. I reread this and found no one complaining about you making this happen. You should be proud and know that I officially can't speak for everyone hear, but I know most of us would agree: Thanks for bringing back 14.1!

Our latest poll even shows 14.1 as our sites favorite game!

Since everything must have a beginning, and a future, it only makes sense for us to discuss this stuff. That is what we do hash out all the good, the bad, and the ugly. Those of you involved should take what good you can from our continued discussions (as we are fans) and by all means ignore the garbage that (as fans we do dish out) is not relevant.

Thanks again for your comment and I hope you know just how thankful we really are.

POST NOTE about a comment from someone on this board. Dragon Promotions does post here when they have something they want to promote, but they never really reply to posts except when they are looking for some information. Many questions are asked of them, but they hardly ever respond. So that kind of bothers some people and makes them feel like we are just here for their free advertising. We don't come out and complain about it, because we do want to know what is happening, but feelings do sometimes get hurt.

 

[Vahe]

I'm not that business savvy, but I imagine there will be about 500 or maybe 1000 spectators at the event (different people, some will come more than one day). Out of 1000 people, how many would buy at least the low-end Sneaky Pete Predator? How much would it cost for Predator to be there? Predator already sponsors a bunch of tournaments, and maybe they will this one, too.
But I'm not sure how much you could ask them to put in, based on direct sales at the tournament.

Now if ESPN picked up the event....

I see your enthusiasm but I feel it is unlikely that 1000 spectators (even if some show up on more than 1 day) will attend. In most cases the gate will be used to cover the expense of the venue. Also, those who will attend are likely to be fans and/or long time players, not the average Joe off the street who stumbles in to watch. Even if they are new to the game, if they are serious, most will be told by someone to invest in their own cue. I frankly do not know anyone who went out on bought a cue because they attended an event sponsored by the manufacturer.

Keep in mind that the cost of making the cue must be deducted from the sale price. Predator, for example, would have to sell 100 cues while making $100 profit on each to BREAK EVEN on a $10,000 sponsorship. Add to that the cost of the space, paying their employees who are in attendance and manning the display table, hotel and travel expenses, etc. In most cases this is a losing proposition for them.

I was in attendance during the last U.S. Open for 14.1 in New York a few years ago (2000?). There were no more than 150 persons in the stands while I was in attendance.

Also, regarding ESPN, if I am not mistaken, the WPBA did (and still may?) pay ESPN to tape, edit, and air many of the events we have seen on ESPN over the years.

 

[rukiddingme]

You guys kill me. Some pros appoached me about a straight pool tournament. Said there hasn't been a world championship in 5 years. I said, "how much you need"?

Finally agreed to DONATE $20,000.00 for the prize fund. Optimal word here is Donate! Agreed to give the money without the possibility of any return.

I gues that is not good enough for some of you. Perhaps my critics can list all of thier efforts to advance pool.

As for Mike Zuglan, he is on the invite list, but nothing has changed since the last thread on this matter.

Only UPA touring pros and some other notables have been invited. A majority of the players have not received their invites yet BECAUSE A SPECIFIC VENUE HAS NOT BEEN DECLARED. That will change in the next week or so.

Can't help but feel some on here are so incredibly ungrateful. leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

Randy

Randy you are so so right.
How quickly people forget...a couple of IPT king of the hill matches and $13 grand to the winner sucks.
The fact that this tournament is being put together is GREAT. I look forward to being one of the spectators that comes to see it.
As a side note Grady should have been invited...he and others have payed their dues in this discipline and deserve to be there.
You know a lot of players have pocket power to make real decent high runs but the real finesse of the game...how each rack is disected...that is what the old masters have.
Young players will be well served to see the old masters play this game. That is why they should be there.
A friend of mine, Sailor of Racine, recently told me that he has seen some players make high runs but he cringed at the manner in which they did it..."all pocket power, no finesse". I hope Grady and some other old time greats change their minds and show us how this game is really played.
ruk
ruk

 

[rukiddingme]

You guys kill me. Some pros appoached me about a straight pool tournament. Said there hasn't been a world championship in 5 years. I said, "how much you need"?

Finally agreed to DONATE $20,000.00 for the prize fund. Optimal word here is Donate! Agreed to give the money without the possibility of any return.

I gues that is not good enough for some of you. Perhaps my critics can list all of thier efforts to advance pool.

As for Mike Zuglan, he is on the invite list, but nothing has changed since the last thread on this matter.

Only UPA touring pros and some other notables have been invited. A majority of the players have not received their invites yet BECAUSE A SPECIFIC VENUE HAS NOT BEEN DECLARED. That will change in the next week or so.

Can't help but feel some on here are so incredibly ungrateful. leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

Randy

Randy you are so so right.
How quickly people forget...a couple of IPT king of the hill matches and $13 grand to the winner sucks.
The fact that this tournament is being put together is GREAT. I look forward to being one of the spectators that comes to see it.
As a side note Grady should have been invited...he and others have payed their dues in this discipline and deserve to be there.
Young players will be well served to see the old masters play this game. That is why they should be there.
A friend of mine, Sailor of Racine, recently told me that he has seen some players make high runs but he cringed at the manner in which they did it..."all pocket power, no finesse". I hope Grady and some other old time greats change their minds and show us how this game is really played.
ruk

 

[enzo]

You guys kill me. Some pros appoached me about a straight pool tournament. Said there hasn't been a world championship in 5 years. I said, "how much you need"?

Finally agreed to DONATE $20,000.00 for the prize fund. Optimal word here is Donate! Agreed to give the money without the possibility of any return.

I gues that is not good enough for some of you. Perhaps my critics can list all of thier efforts to advance pool.

As for Mike Zuglan, he is on the invite list, but nothing has changed since the last thread on this matter.

Only UPA touring pros and some other notables have been invited. A majority of the players have not received their invites yet BECAUSE A SPECIFIC VENUE HAS NOT BEEN DECLARED. That will change in the next week or so.

Can't help but feel some on here are so incredibly ungrateful. leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

Randy

you are absolutely right, i was critical of the prize fund, but i very much do understand your point if you are in fact putting up your own money and taking a loss. i do appreciate it if it means anything to you.

do you think the players are getting paid a sufficient amount at these tournaments, im not saying you should add more, but just wondering.

anyway, if you could answer one more quick question randy. is pro pool really not marketable enough to put on a nice event and give the players some money? could the answer lie in selling tickets to the event, getting the event on espn (a dragons promotion affiliate right?), sponsorships. where do all these huge moneymakers (predator etc) do their advertising?

 

[NYC cue dude]

straight pool

For years now there has been no sponsor with any interest in supporting a world straight pool championship. All the cue makers and billiard supply companies have thumbed their noses at this discipline. Espn has NO interest in filiming or broadcasting any straight pool matches.

The only way this event would happen was with private sponsorship. The fact remains, that without major sponsorship, this event WILL DEFINETLY lose money.

With this tournament in particular, we don't even feel that spectator ticket sales and concessions will cover the venue expense. (at this point it will probably be held in a hotel venue).

My one condition was that all my "added" money be paid out to the players.

I wish it could be more, but quite honestly, I didn't feel that donating any more would really make a difference to anybody but me. 20 grand is still a lot of money to just toss up in the wind and watch blow away in five days.

What really gets me though is that there are some who are so cynical or stupid that they don't understand that someone came forward, for the love of straight pool and decided "go ahead, let's see the best".

It makes me wonder what really keeps pool down. the players all seem to be appreciative of my efforts. The only snide comments come from "fans", who in the scheme of things don't really matter. I'm not putting on this event for the fans. I'm putting it on for the players. This event would happen if there was not a single fan in attendance.

Seems to me that people who contribute nothing, but at the same time feel so self important, take it upon themselves to pass negative judgement so easily. It is these people who should recognize their place and remeber that if they can't say something nice......

Randy

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I'd just like to show some comparison numbers from a UPA event in Atlanta last year. This was a $20,000 added tournament:

1st Mika Immonen $10,000
2nd Earl Strickland $5,000
3rd Troy Frank $3,000
4th Mike Davis $2,500
5th/6th Luc Salvas, Tony Robles $2,000
7th/8th Corey Deuel, Shawn Putnam $1,400
9th/12th Robb Saez, Danny Basavich, Steve Moore, Larry Nevel $900
13th/16th Tony Crosby, Johnny Archer, Young-Hwa Jeong, Tim Hall $500

Not sure if this tournament got the full 64 players or not, but in any case, the prize money seems to be significantly less than the upcoming straight pool tournament.

Is the 14.1 tournament paying out like an IPT event? No. But in comparison to most of our other tournaments, the World Straight Pool event seems to be doing something right.

I hope this puts things into a bit of perspective...

- Steve

 

[bud green]

People just love and respect the game and tradition of 14.1 and wish it was doing better in terms of $$ and number of events held.

I'm sure almost all pool fans appreciate you getting this thing going, Randy. They just wish the game had some kind of industry support so a great game could reward the players more.

The same thing is true for three cushion billiards. Without Sang Lee and Bob Jewett, almost no top players from around the world would ever have come here to play last 10-12 years. Sang Lee put his own money in, held them at his room, rewarded high runs with $$, and even had banquets afterwards.

Bob Jewett organized and helped support the Carl Conlon tourneys in Vegas and invested a lot of his time and money. He also ran the DCC 14.1; I don't think people realize how much he does to support pool.

Don't worry about the naysayers. A lot of people realize what you're doing and appreciate it. I'm in the group that wishes guys like Grady could afford to play, but until then, its nice to just have world class players mixing it up.

 

[uwate]

I never knew that a single individual was the one sponsoring this world championship. Man thats pretty amazing and shows a true love for this game. Big thumbs up Randy!

 

[etimmons]

For years now there has been no sponsor with any interest in supporting a world straight pool championship. All the cue makers and billiard supply companies have thumbed their noses at this discipline. Espn has NO interest in filiming or broadcasting any straight pool matches.

The only way this event would happen was with private sponsorship. The fact remains, that without major sponsorship, this event WILL DEFINETLY lose money.

With this tournament in particular, we don't even feel that spectator ticket sales and concessions will cover the venue expense. (at this point it will probably be held in a hotel venue).

My one condition was that all my "added" money be paid out to the players.

I wish it could be more, but quite honestly, I didn't feel that donating any more would really make a difference to anybody but me. 20 grand is still a lot of money to just toss up in the wind and watch blow away in five days.

What really gets me though is that there are some who are so cynical or stupid that they don't understand that someone came forward, for the love of straight pool and decided "go ahead, let's see the best".

It makes me wonder what really keeps pool down. the players all seem to be appreciative of my efforts. The only snide comments come from "fans", who in the scheme of things don't really matter. I'm not putting on this event for the fans. I'm putting it on for the players. This event would happen if there was not a single fan in attendance.

Seems to me that people who contribute nothing, but at the same time feel so self important, take it upon themselves to pass negative judgement so easily. It is these people who should recognize their place and remeber that if they can't say something nice......

Randy

NICELY SAID

 

[yobagua]

Randy, I think you should stop reading posts on a forum. Certainly pay no attention to them.. When you have an open forum like this in a so called democratic country someone is always going to say something supid or not. You cant take it all seriously. There are all kinds of nitwits out there man. Just go on doing your thing.
However I dont think you should expect anyone to be "grateful". I presume you are doing it not only for the players but for your own love of the game. When I went to the 2000 NY 14.1 US event I went to every game. I flew cross country to get there and spent 7 days in a NY hotel. All in all it cost me about $2500 and another $5000 in loss income. No one treated me any different . There was no welcoming committee no flower girls with wreaths like they do in Hawaii when you come off a plane. Players and promoters werent there to shake my hand in thanks. But a guy in the ticket booth going that will be $100 pal! But I had a great great time. And Im sure I will at this event.

 

[sjm]

Randy, I think you should stop reading posts on a forum. Certainly pay no attention to them.. When you have an open forum like this in a so called democratic country someone is always going to say something supid or not. You cant take it all seriously. There are all kinds of nitwits out there man. Just go on doing your thing.
However I dont think you should expect anyone to be "grateful".

I know where you are coming from, Yobagua, and that you have all the right motives here. Unfortunately, the argument that every tournament promoter and every benefactor of the game undercompensates and exploits the players is made so often and by so many on this forum that it is truly disheartening.

I see this forum as a microcosm of the pool scene, and as a true indicator of how those closest to the game feel about the pro pool scene and its climate. Why wouldn't a potential benefactor of our sport be turned off by the glaringly obvious ingratitude shown by so many who are close to the game? These ingrates are not, as you suggest, nitwits, but they are uninformed.

For this reason, I think it is important that Randy Goldwater has posted. Those who summarily dismiss the possibility that anybody would privately fund, or even partly fund, an independent pool event, just to suppport the game, needed to be introduced to one such benefactor of our game.

It is my deepest hope that Randy Goldwater, through his wonderful generosity, inspires others having the financial means to be benefactors of pool.

 

[enzo]

don't take it personally randy

For years now there has been no sponsor with any interest in supporting a world straight pool championship. All the cue makers and billiard supply companies have thumbed their noses at this discipline. Espn has NO interest in filiming or broadcasting any straight pool matches.

The only way this event would happen was with private sponsorship. The fact remains, that without major sponsorship, this event WILL DEFINETLY lose money.

With this tournament in particular, we don't even feel that spectator ticket sales and concessions will cover the venue expense. (at this point it will probably be held in a hotel venue).

My one condition was that all my "added" money be paid out to the players.

I wish it could be more, but quite honestly, I didn't feel that donating any more would really make a difference to anybody but me. 20 grand is still a lot of money to just toss up in the wind and watch blow away in five days.

What really gets me though is that there are some who are so cynical or stupid that they don't understand that someone came forward, for the love of straight pool and decided "go ahead, let's see the best".

It makes me wonder what really keeps pool down. the players all seem to be appreciative of my efforts. The only snide comments come from "fans", who in the scheme of things don't really matter. I'm not putting on this event for the fans. I'm putting it on for the players. This event would happen if there was not a single fan in attendance.

Seems to me that people who contribute nothing, but at the same time feel so self important, take it upon themselves to pass negative judgement so easily. It is these people who should recognize their place and remeber that if they can't say something nice......

Randy

randy,

if you did in fact put up 20k, and are taking a 20k loss, i'm sure everybody here is appreciative.... i know i am. i don't think you should take these complaints personally. i'm sure most people who have posted here love strait pool, and if nothing else admire the players so much that they feel their skills at the table deserve larger payouts (to no fault of your own of course, quite the contrary). i'm sure even you would agree with this.

as far as your statement about saying only nice things in a forum, well, that wouldn't be very interesting, would it?