But that's not the stroke we're discussing here.
The stroke slip .
- Thread starter JoeyInCali
- Start date
But that's not the stroke we're discussing here.
JoeyinCali said
"And that let it slide draw stroke was shown to me by his former touring partner, Wayne Norcross from PA.
Wayne had a slip stroke as well. Held the cue in the middle of the wrap and moved his hand back in the final stroke. "
The stroke is most commonly used in long shots (where Mosconi had to reach) or long draw shots and it was an attempt to increase follow through.
The slip stroke in the Tor Lowry video I listed above is the same one Mosconi used, where the cue is described as essentially thrown at the cue ball and slips through the grip hand. It sure SOUNDS like what you describe earlier in this thread where you talk about releasing the grip to let the cue slide through your hand. What other type of slip stroke are you talking about? Is there more than one version of the slip stroke? If so what is the difference?
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After watching Lowry's video I've been using a slightly modified stroke for long shots. Not letting it slide really through but holding the cue extremely loose so that it might travel less than 1cm or so in my hand.
This helped me potting difficult long balls (straight ones are hell!), as described somewhere else.
You might want to try a proper level (i.e. 90 degrees against the table, not down at the cloth) stroke first.
This helped me potting difficult long balls (straight ones are hell!), as described somewhere else.
You might want to try a proper level (i.e. 90 degrees against the table, not down at the cloth) stroke first.
Mosconi used a true slip stroke, where he slipped his hand back on the cue during his back stroke.
The release stroke, or what's being called here as the 'stroke-slip' is where the cue is released from the hand during the forward motion. It's possible that Mosconi may have released the cue at times during the forward stroke, but I don't remember seeing him do that.
to grip or not to grip that is the question
Good points. Sliding the hand back on the backstroke, gripping then releasing, simply holding the cue very loose and letting it slip on the forward stroke, etc. All of these seem to be variations on the theme but still parts of the same stroke. As to the perfect execution of the shot I have no opinion so we don't need to disagree there. I only know what a little research has turned up. The majority of the discussion involves on letting the cue slip through on the forward motion but slipping back on the backstroke is also mentioned. Slipping the hand back on the backstroke seems very similar to just starting with it back there to begin with but, again I have no opinion on that.
There seem to be multiple possible goals/benefits or at least attempts to achieve them.
I am not saying it delivers any of these promises, only that is what those who like it seem to believe. For myself, I do like it and have improved my stats for my long draw shots immediately by using it. So even if it is all in my head that is ok. That is the weakest part of my game anyway. :smile:
I don't see it as useful in soft, short or very high action shots but then, again, that is just me, it may be different for someone else.
Good points. Sliding the hand back on the backstroke, gripping then releasing, simply holding the cue very loose and letting it slip on the forward stroke, etc. All of these seem to be variations on the theme but still parts of the same stroke. As to the perfect execution of the shot I have no opinion so we don't need to disagree there. I only know what a little research has turned up. The majority of the discussion involves on letting the cue slip through on the forward motion but slipping back on the backstroke is also mentioned. Slipping the hand back on the backstroke seems very similar to just starting with it back there to begin with but, again I have no opinion on that.
There seem to be multiple possible goals/benefits or at least attempts to achieve them.
- Lessen the steering effect of the grip hand
- Keep the grip from muffling the cue action
- Extend the reach and or follow through
- Achieve greater spin by lengthening the stroke
I am not saying it delivers any of these promises, only that is what those who like it seem to believe. For myself, I do like it and have improved my stats for my long draw shots immediately by using it. So even if it is all in my head that is ok. That is the weakest part of my game anyway. :smile:
I don't see it as useful in soft, short or very high action shots but then, again, that is just me, it may be different for someone else.
Proper level stroke
The "Proper level stroke", I believe is what is commonly referred to as a Piston Stroke vs a Pendulum. I agree the slip stroke, at least as I use it, is more similar to a Piston Stroke. Mine begins as a Pendulum but does not finish tight up against my chest since I am no longer influencing the cue. My hand and arm come to a relaxed stop and the cue continues through contact on its own.
The "Proper level stroke", I believe is what is commonly referred to as a Piston Stroke vs a Pendulum. I agree the slip stroke, at least as I use it, is more similar to a Piston Stroke. Mine begins as a Pendulum but does not finish tight up against my chest since I am no longer influencing the cue. My hand and arm come to a relaxed stop and the cue continues through contact on its own.
It can do this.
Whatever "muffling the cue action" means, this is a myth.
What's "the reach"? Anyway, this could be true.
This is a myth.
.
What does "extend" mean? Anyway, it might help with draw (by keeping the stroke straight), but this reasoning is a myth.
Except for keeping the grip from pulling the stroke offline, all of these are the usual nonsense myths.
pj
chngo
You know, Patrick --- There's something weird that happens when you throw the cue. As I wrote before, I experimented extensively as did my friend, Gene Nagy, who for several months, threw the cue for every shot except the break. I don't recommend it of course, not because throwing it is bad, but because of the damage it does to the cue. Gene was using one of my Schulers and it was almost unrecognizable after a few months of throwing.
But anyway, I was able to do things with throwing the cue with spin that I was never able to do before, and the same went for Gene, who already had one of the purest strokes I'd ever seen. I can't tell you exactly what happened because I never knew for sure.
I took the plunge and threw the cue one time in a WPBA tournament on a shot that looked impossible to beat a scratch with backspin and side which I needed for position. I threw the cue and the cb didn't go anywhere near the pocket and came off the rail with a ton of spin, which is what I needed. (I had experimented with that shot before in practice, throwing the cue, and it astounded me.) In the tournament - the cue stick hit the table hard with a BANG and then fell to the floor. The spectators thought it was a crazy accident. It wasn't, and I was able to run out the last two balls and win the game. No one ever knew what I did.
There is only one POINT in a pendulum arc where it is not either moving down or moving up.
Since it is a single point the term moving can not even be legitimately applied to it.
If the hand on the cue is moving up then the the tip is moving down. If the hand on the cue is moving down then the tip is moving up.
In order to limit such there would need to be a changing connection to the cue &/or wrist action that is not present in a true pendulum.
If the cue is sitting in the 'cradle' of the four fingers the resting point of the cue would have to constantly change as the hand is swung up on the back 'swing' & down on the forward 'swing' & again as the hand is swung up during contact.
The approximate 3 to 4 inches of available change on the 'cradle' is insufficient in length to off set the rise & fall of the hand. That length of change can merely reduce the rocking effect of the cue stick & the subsequent up & down movement of the tip on the END of the cue stick
Hence the tip arcs down as the hand 'swings' up & arcs up as the hand 'swings' down & arcs down as the hand 'swings' up again.
There is a single POINT where there is a change of direction from arcing up to arcing down where the tip is doing neither. As said earlier, if it is a single point, then the term moving is inapplicable to it.
To get the tip on the END of the stick to make contact with the ball at that single point where it is neither moving up nor down would take a PERFECT set up. Human Beings are rarely, if ever, perfect.
So what then MIGHT get the cue stick & the tip moving in a straight line for even a very very short distance?
Well, the only thing that is available is the wrist. If the wrist goes into the radial position on the back swing in order to limit the effect of the pinky finger lifting the stick then the index finger rises & lifts the stick.
That would then need to be reversed as the hand 'swings' down & then the hand would need to go into the ulnar position to lessen the effect of the index finger lifting the cue but that puts the pinky finger into a lifting position.
That wrist action is what CJ Wiley referred to as his hammer wrist action.
As I have said what is now many times, the connection to the cue must fit the stroke BUT that can only do so much in trying to get the cue to move in a straight line any more than for just that single point.
What is available is a complex coordination of the cue stick changing resting points on the hand/cradle while the wrist is going through the changes of neutral to radial, back to neutral, & then on to the ulnar position.
That is not the wrist action that most envision for the stroke as most would see it as just the opposite.
The stick is straight & we use the end of it with a small leather tip to strike the ball.
To 'swing' the stick similar to how a pendulum swings is not conducive & best for the function of the task desired.
The stick is straight, why not move it in as near to a straight line as humanly possible?
Keeping the elbow still while the arm beneath it is moving is also not a natural thing to do. So why go against nature & what is bio-mechanically natural?
If the cue is rocking it would take PERFECT timing of when to release it to get it to move in a straight line as it rests on the bridge hand for the release stroke or stroke slip or slip stroke whatever the the released cue stroke is called.
BUT... if it is already moving in a straight line then one can release it at any point in time & it would move in a straight line.
Pendulum ARC vs a Straight Line like a piston in a cylinder.
All of the above is just food for thought.
Best Wishes to ALL.
Since it is a single point the term moving can not even be legitimately applied to it.
If the hand on the cue is moving up then the the tip is moving down. If the hand on the cue is moving down then the tip is moving up.
In order to limit such there would need to be a changing connection to the cue &/or wrist action that is not present in a true pendulum.
If the cue is sitting in the 'cradle' of the four fingers the resting point of the cue would have to constantly change as the hand is swung up on the back 'swing' & down on the forward 'swing' & again as the hand is swung up during contact.
The approximate 3 to 4 inches of available change on the 'cradle' is insufficient in length to off set the rise & fall of the hand. That length of change can merely reduce the rocking effect of the cue stick & the subsequent up & down movement of the tip on the END of the cue stick
Hence the tip arcs down as the hand 'swings' up & arcs up as the hand 'swings' down & arcs down as the hand 'swings' up again.
There is a single POINT where there is a change of direction from arcing up to arcing down where the tip is doing neither. As said earlier, if it is a single point, then the term moving is inapplicable to it.
To get the tip on the END of the stick to make contact with the ball at that single point where it is neither moving up nor down would take a PERFECT set up. Human Beings are rarely, if ever, perfect.
So what then MIGHT get the cue stick & the tip moving in a straight line for even a very very short distance?
Well, the only thing that is available is the wrist. If the wrist goes into the radial position on the back swing in order to limit the effect of the pinky finger lifting the stick then the index finger rises & lifts the stick.
That would then need to be reversed as the hand 'swings' down & then the hand would need to go into the ulnar position to lessen the effect of the index finger lifting the cue but that puts the pinky finger into a lifting position.
That wrist action is what CJ Wiley referred to as his hammer wrist action.
As I have said what is now many times, the connection to the cue must fit the stroke BUT that can only do so much in trying to get the cue to move in a straight line any more than for just that single point.
What is available is a complex coordination of the cue stick changing resting points on the hand/cradle while the wrist is going through the changes of neutral to radial, back to neutral, & then on to the ulnar position.
That is not the wrist action that most envision for the stroke as most would see it as just the opposite.
The stick is straight & we use the end of it with a small leather tip to strike the ball.
To 'swing' the stick similar to how a pendulum swings is not conducive & best for the function of the task desired.
The stick is straight, why not move it in as near to a straight line as humanly possible?
Keeping the elbow still while the arm beneath it is moving is also not a natural thing to do. So why go against nature & what is bio-mechanically natural?
If the cue is rocking it would take PERFECT timing of when to release it to get it to move in a straight line as it rests on the bridge hand for the release stroke or stroke slip or slip stroke whatever the the released cue stroke is called.
BUT... if it is already moving in a straight line then one can release it at any point in time & it would move in a straight line.
Pendulum ARC vs a Straight Line like a piston in a cylinder.
All of the above is just food for thought.
Best Wishes to ALL.
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Pendulum stroke
Sure, I get that. But he referred to the "proper stroke" of 90 degrees from the table". The pendulum is only there for a brief moment and would not be described that way. His post was:
"You might want to try a proper level (i.e. 90 degrees against the table, not down at the cloth) stroke first." or in other words parallel to the table not ending at the cloth like the pendulum. I believe HIS reference is to a piston stroke.
I always wonder where the notion of "a proper level stroke" or "a true slip shot" comes from. Is there a universally accepted detailed master list of pool terms which has been blessed by all the pool authorities world wide?????
Mostly these concepts seem to mean proper or true according to me. I doubt a pendulum stroke instructor would concede that the best stroke would be a consistent "proper 90 degrees against the table, not down at the cloth stroke".
As for me, I am just a bystander. No axe to grind, no thought that I know it all. I enjoy the conversation and like all the input. I pick and choose what works for me.
Sure, I get that. But he referred to the "proper stroke" of 90 degrees from the table". The pendulum is only there for a brief moment and would not be described that way. His post was:
"You might want to try a proper level (i.e. 90 degrees against the table, not down at the cloth) stroke first." or in other words parallel to the table not ending at the cloth like the pendulum. I believe HIS reference is to a piston stroke.
I always wonder where the notion of "a proper level stroke" or "a true slip shot" comes from. Is there a universally accepted detailed master list of pool terms which has been blessed by all the pool authorities world wide?????
Mostly these concepts seem to mean proper or true according to me. I doubt a pendulum stroke instructor would concede that the best stroke would be a consistent "proper 90 degrees against the table, not down at the cloth stroke". As for me, I am just a bystander. No axe to grind, no thought that I know it all. I enjoy the conversation and like all the input. I pick and choose what works for me.
Value of the slip
I am pretty much aligned with your opinion here. The main thing I get from it is less hand and wrist involvement. I, like a lot of players, tend to do a lot of crazy stuff with my hand and wrist on long hard draw shots. One of the real common ones is turning my hand over like I am trying to screw the cue into the cue ball.
I don't know if holding the stick deadens the cue action. I do know you can't feel the stick vibrate when you let it slip like you can with a firmer grip. Like you say.I doubt this does anything but it does feel different to the hand.
As for the extra spin, etc. I watched Mike Massey do a long draw with elbow drop and long follow through and claim that was the only way it could be done. Then I watched Tim White do the same shot with the Pendulum stroke and a perfectly normal stroke and no elbow drop.
I saw Fran comment on the extra spin she achieves so I will leave that discussion to greater minds than mine. I have no clue if it helps or not. That isn't my objective anyway.
Keeping my hand out of the way with the slip is like the farmer following the plow who kept smearing manure on his mouth. When asked if manure did something to help chapped lips his replied "no but it sure keeps me from licking them."
I am pretty much aligned with your opinion here. The main thing I get from it is less hand and wrist involvement. I, like a lot of players, tend to do a lot of crazy stuff with my hand and wrist on long hard draw shots. One of the real common ones is turning my hand over like I am trying to screw the cue into the cue ball.
I don't know if holding the stick deadens the cue action. I do know you can't feel the stick vibrate when you let it slip like you can with a firmer grip. Like you say.I doubt this does anything but it does feel different to the hand.
As for the extra spin, etc. I watched Mike Massey do a long draw with elbow drop and long follow through and claim that was the only way it could be done. Then I watched Tim White do the same shot with the Pendulum stroke and a perfectly normal stroke and no elbow drop.
I saw Fran comment on the extra spin she achieves so I will leave that discussion to greater minds than mine. I have no clue if it helps or not. That isn't my objective anyway.
Keeping my hand out of the way with the slip is like the farmer following the plow who kept smearing manure on his mouth. When asked if manure did something to help chapped lips his replied "no but it sure keeps me from licking them."
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slip stroke vs. stroke slip
I should know better than to question you girl!!
So slip stroke vs. stroke slip definitions courtesy of Dr. Dave (does that make it official?)
Slip stroke -- The grip hand slips back on the butt just prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.
Stroke slip -- As the forward stroke at the cue ball is executed, the cue slips through the grip hand to some degree (a "throw" or "release and catch").
Confirming your explanation, I just watched the Tor Lowry's explanation he learned from Dallas West in 1985. Dallas West described the slip stroke shot as sliding the hand back on the backstroke then throwing the cue at the cue ball. He does not mention it slipping on the forward stroke, so slip stroke but not stroke slip.
I see a lot more discussion of Stroke Slip under the heading of slip stroke then of the slip back on backstroke under slip stroke.
Who decides these things and where is the definitive description which should be universally accepted?
I should know better than to question you girl!!
So slip stroke vs. stroke slip definitions courtesy of Dr. Dave (does that make it official?)
Slip stroke -- The grip hand slips back on the butt just prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.
Stroke slip -- As the forward stroke at the cue ball is executed, the cue slips through the grip hand to some degree (a "throw" or "release and catch").
Confirming your explanation, I just watched the Tor Lowry's explanation he learned from Dallas West in 1985. Dallas West described the slip stroke shot as sliding the hand back on the backstroke then throwing the cue at the cue ball. He does not mention it slipping on the forward stroke, so slip stroke but not stroke slip.
I see a lot more discussion of Stroke Slip under the heading of slip stroke then of the slip back on backstroke under slip stroke.
Who decides these things and where is the definitive description which should be universally accepted?
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I think we should get rid of the term 'stroke slip' completely and use the term 'release stroke.' In sports where an object is thrown and let go during the forward motion of the arm, it's called a release. In pool, if the cue is in a released position at impact with the cue ball, it's perfectly correct to call it a release stroke. It certainly lessens the confusion when comparing it to a slip stroke. People are always trying to attach new names to things. Some make sense and some don't. With a slip stroke, it's the hand that's slipping, but with a stroke slip, it's the cue that's slipping, so the reference to the word 'slip' isn't consistent.
There's a pretty decent glossary in the back of the BCA (not the BCAPL) rule book that coins some terms, but there are mostly terms that come up in the rules.
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I will second that. Thanks for the reference. Dr. Dave has a pretty extensive one too but BCA is more widely accepted and more likely to be somewhat universal.
Is there another way to do it?
FWIW the cue slips in my grip hand on almost every stroke I take, sometimes just a little, sometimes a whole lot. I make no attempt to do this, it's just a natural consequence of a very loose and supple grip plus the slick Irish linen wrap on my cue. If I try to "grip it and rip it" I will throw the cue off line so much it's alarming.
I also play around a lot with a true slip stroke. I used to think my grip hand moved back just an small amount, but after videotaping a practice session I saw that the hand usually slides back 4-6" along the grip. That's with a starting position well forward of my normal grip (almost at the front of the grip at times), but finishing with the forearm perpendicular to the cue. I believe this is more natural to do on a very forward weighted cue like mine than it is on a rear-weighted cue.
At any rate, I don't think either type of stroke is possible to do with a firm starting grip, particularly the slip stroke.
BTW I much prefer your term "release stroke". Even though I don't consciously release the cue, calling it a "stroke slip" has caused more confusion than it has eliminated.
Release stroke wouldn't be accurate b/c you are not really releasing the cue.
It would still be in your hands, wouldn't it?
And you don't have to start by gripping the and releasing it.
You just have a loose cradle.
It would still be in your hands, wouldn't it?
And you don't have to start by gripping the and releasing it.
You just have a loose cradle.
I think the difference would be between those that 'let the cue do the work' & those that actually 'use' the cue to stroke through the ball.
I use the cue & when I do it, for me, it is a release of the cue.
If the ball where not there, to 'catch' the force of the cue, it would most probably leave my hand in most cases.
Best 2 You & All.
That's an excellent point. Maybe we shouldn't call it anything at all. I can see the potential for confusion arising when someone hears about it and thinks they have to actively loosen their grip mid-stroke... a sure recipe for disaster.
There seems to be an increasing desire to put a label on everything these days. Not just in pool, either.