The Stroke Thread

justnum

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
Aiming is important but the stroke is how people get things done in a billiards match. The link will show a video illustrating the three main results of using a draw stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejd59-qIhlM


Most players know the draw shot,

but how often is it that the perfectly straight draw shot appears on the table.

The video demonstrates various draw shots applied to somewhat straight on object balls.

The three major distinctions are:
1. the straight draw when the cue ball returns along the path it took to the object ball.
2. the freezer, in which the cue ball stops where the object ball was.
3. the side draw, when the cue ball moves along a path perpendicular to the directional contact between the cue and object ball.

Can anyone explain how to induce the three different shots, or discuss the conditions needed to re-create the three different types of draw?

Knowing when things happen on the pool table is a precursor to making things happen on the pool table.

(Getting the lighting right is really hard when shooting with a still cam for vid)
 
justnum said:
The video demonstrates various draw shots applied to somewhat straight on object balls.

The three major distinctions are:
1. the straight draw when the cue ball returns along the path it took to the object ball.
2. the freezer, in which the cue ball stops where the object ball was.
3. the side draw, when the cue ball moves along a path perpendicular to the directional contact between the cue and object ball.

Can anyone explain how to induce the three different shots, or discuss the conditions needed to re-create the three different types of draw?

Knowing when things happen on the pool table is a precursor to making things happen on the pool table.

(Getting the lighting right is really hard when shooting with a still cam for vid)
Click to expand...


Seems to me that the person in the video has changed the angle of the cue ball to the object ball but the video isn't very good. As you probably know if you shoot a shot with draw it will initially take the tangent line from the point of contact and then draw back on an angle greater than the tangent line, the faster the cue ball is traveling the longer it will hold the tangent line before it comes back.
 
I didn't watch the video, but the difference between a straight draw shot and a stop shot is either the speed of the stroke or the placement of the tip. To achieve a stop shot, you can hit the cueball in the same place as the draw shot, but with a slower speed - or - you can hit with the same speed as the draw but higher on the cb (obviously this varies with distance and speeds but the principle is the same).

To have the ball follow the tangent line, it can't be perfectly straight or you have to cheat the pocket with angle or English. You can achieve this with a "punch" stroke or a regular stroke; the cue speed and tip placement varies with distance to the object ball.
 
justnum...There are not three kinds of draw. There is only one stroke. It is used many different ways. It's all about speed and spin. You use the same stroke for all three shots you're trying to demonstrate.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

justnum said:
Aiming is important but the stroke is how people get things done in a billiards match. The link will show a video illustrating the three main results of using a draw stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejd59-qIhlM


Most players know the draw shot,

but how often is it that the perfectly straight draw shot appears on the table.

The video demonstrates various draw shots applied to somewhat straight on object balls.

The three major distinctions are:
1. the straight draw when the cue ball returns along the path it took to the object ball.
2. the freezer, in which the cue ball stops where the object ball was.
3. the side draw, when the cue ball moves along a path perpendicular to the directional contact between the cue and object ball.

Can anyone explain how to induce the three different shots, or discuss the conditions needed to re-create the three different types of draw?

Knowing when things happen on the pool table is a precursor to making things happen on the pool table.

(Getting the lighting right is really hard when shooting with a still cam for vid)
Click to expand...
 
Follow Stroke

The follow through stroke has three basic variations on the cue ball path after contact with the object ball.

A common obeservation is when a follow through shot is applied with great force for an object ball more than 6 diamonds from the cue ball. The result effect is the curved path the cue ball makes after the contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-zQevYJH6s

The video illustrates the subtle differences for follow through shots with varying mild force (because soft shots are more common than).

Sometimes a follow through stroke is a poke other times it is a stroke. Something worth noting is the direction the cue stick moves after striking the cue ball for a stroke.


Can you describe the differences cue paths when using a poke follow through compared to a stroke follow through for objects balls at a length of 6 diamonds or more apart?

When the cue and the object balls are fewer than 6 diamonds apart can you describe which way the cue ball path varies as you vary the force you stroke with?



The follow through stroke is a useful tool to have and it is effective when used for the proper situation.
 
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Scott Lee said:
justnum...There are not three kinds of draw. There is only one stroke. It is used many different ways. It's all about speed and spin. You use the same stroke for all three shots you're trying to demonstrate.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I feel strongly about the importance of stroke in terms of initial contact between cue ball and cue stick to the terminal contact between cue ball and cue stick.

When I refer to stroke I refer to (BCEC, beginning contact ending contact).

I agree speed and spin are important but I have been watching film and been noticing that the BCEC have an impact for repeating a desired effect, in terms of determining a path for the cue ball to travel.
 
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justnum said:
I feel strongly about the importance of stroke in terms of initial contact between cue ball and cue stick to the terminal contact between cue ball and cue stick.

When I refer to stroke I refer to (BCEC, beginning contact ending contact).

I agree speed and spin are important but I have been watching film and been noticing that the BCEC have an impact for repeating a desired effect, in terms of determining a path for the cue ball to travel.
Click to expand...

They have done the physics to pretty much rule out BCEC as relevant since the time of contact is short and cannot be manipulated in any way to extend it by more than milliseconds. Dr Dave and Bob Jewitt should be along any time to elaborate on the subject in much further depth than I could ever manage.......
 
In addition to speed and spin there is a 3rd thing involved and that is the impact angle. You can impact on a downward, level, or upward trajectory and alter the paths because you alter the speed/spin ratios by altering table friction.

I use a super long follow thru when I am trying to create a upward impact so I can see where you could think it was the follow thru getting you changes in cue ball paths but it is all speed vs spin vs impact angle that causes the changes.

You can get the same results with no follow thru that you can get with a long follow thru but the punch may not be conducive to stroking the ball since you are physically stopping the stroke and therefore decelerating.
 
The Renfro said:
They have done the physics to pretty much rule out BCEC as relevant since the time of contact is short and cannot be manipulated in any way to extend it by more than milliseconds. Dr Dave and Bob Jewitt should be along any time to elaborate on the subject in much further depth than I could ever manage.......
Click to expand...

I agree that the physics of billiards has been done to death, but physics and those explanations are for computer programmers that are trying to build a billiard sim with equations instead of artistry.

As for playing real world pool, the initial control a player has is BCEC, beginning contact with the cue ball and ending contact with the cue ball. The BCEC is the only factor that determines how the cue ball responds on the table.

Think of it is physics simplified into what a player needs to know and how they can recognize what is happening, BCEC.

I appreciate the feedback. Keep it coming.
 
justnum said:
Something worth noting is the direction the cue stick moves after striking the cue ball for a stroke.


.
Click to expand...

If you are hitting on the vertical centerline, the only direction the cue shoud move after striking the cue ball is straight forward.

If you are hitting side spin, there will be some movement to the side, but it should be the result of collision offset (deflection) and not something the shooter is doing different.

The goal of a good stroke is to move the cue forward in a straight line.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
If you are hitting on the vertical centerline, the only direction the cue shoud move after striking the cue ball is straight forward.

If you are hitting side spin, there will be some movement to the side, but it should be the result of collision offset (deflection) and not something the shooter is doing different.

The goal of a good stroke is to move the cue forward in a straight line.

Steve
Click to expand...

Playing the straight line path also limits the range of motion you can play for the cue ball. I agree a good stroke is played with a straight line. The point I am emphasizing is controlling the path of the cue ball via BCEC, it is not a benefit to playing pool it is more of a random physics fact about how the stroke can be studied.

For me always trying to make one thing happen was painful but if people can identify what went wrong after a shot based on the cue ball path, it can help them correct it or at least know they missed because of the stroke and not some "hottie" drawing attention.
 
As Scott said, there is only one stroke. The only variables are:

- where you hit the CB (and at what angle)
- how hard you hit the CB

Follow through is just a way to ensure the same, straight stroke every time so you can hit the CB where you want to.

Pool is hard, but it's not complicated.

pj
chgo
 
Neil said:
Justnum: Correct me if I am reading you wrong here. You are making these claims-
1. You can alter the time your tip is in contact with the cb.
2. What the "science guys" have proven on video as to what really happens is B.S. in the real world.
3. By changing the direction of your cue, you can still put the cb where you want to, but it will alter the path of the cb after contact with the ob.
4. By watching your cue after the stroke, you can tell what went wrong with the shot even though you don't need a straight stroke.
5. There are 3 kinds of draw stokes.
6. A stop shot is a draw shot.
7. By watching the cb path, you can determine just what was wrong with your stroke so you can correct it.
Click to expand...

That is sums up what I wrote, thanks for the proofreading. The text could use a major overhaul.
 
justnum said:
1. the straight draw when the cue ball returns along the path it took to the object ball.
2. the freezer, in which the cue ball stops where the object ball was.
3. the side draw, when the cue ball moves along a path perpendicular to the directional contact between the cue and object ball.

Can anyone explain how to induce the three different shots, or discuss the conditions needed to re-create the three different types of draw?
Click to expand...
1. square hit on OB with backspin = straight-back draw
2. square hit with stun (no top or bottom spin) = stop shot
3. OB hit at an angle = CB moves along the tangent line initially, then curving away if there is top or bottom spin

FYI, the following link includes three videos that cover important elements of draw shot technique, physics, and examples fairly well:

Check them out. And if you want even more info, check out my draw resources page.

Regards,
Dave
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
As Scott said, there is only one stroke. The only variables are:

- where you hit the CB (and at what angle)
- how hard you hit the CB

Follow through is just a way to ensure the same, straight stroke every time so you can hit the CB where you want to.

Pool is hard, but it's not complicated.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

When the CB is hit by the CS there is that famous instant of time where differential calculus and all the concepts of directional forces, rates of change and all the technical stuff play a role.

Aside from getting technical which I am sure you can read up on, the idea I suggest is to reduce the theory into BC and EC. Yes I know that a collision can seem instantaneous, but sometimes the collision can be elastic and others inelastic.

In the case when you can observe the CS stick to the CB I simplify that idea into BCEC.

You are very current on old methods of analysis but today's photography and mathematics are much more sophisticated then they used to be. The idea I propose would be difficult to grasp if you lack some knowledge about physics and math, specifically what directional forces are and the different types of basic collisions that occur between to non-EM bodies.

Some reading I'd suggest is multivariable calculus, directional forces and physics 1, collisions. Anyone familiar with those texts would clearly identify the cue stick as a field of forces and that field is applied to the CB and bla bla bla more math bla bla math ... bla bla read the book.

Most people can simplify that field of forces into a resultant force and that idea is the one you discussed. I prefer to discuss the concept before any physics reductions.
 
Stick to NPR

justnum - my $0.02 = keep your incoherent ramblings to NPR. You are about to be scorched here.

justnum said:
When the CB is hit by the CS there is that famous instant of time where differential calculus and all the concepts of directional forces, rates of change and all the technical stuff play a role.

Aside from getting technical which I am sure you can read up on, the idea I suggest is to reduce the theory into BC and EC. Yes I know that a collision can seem instantaneous, but sometimes the collision can be elastic and others inelastic.

In the case when you can observe the CS stick to the CB I simplify that idea into BCEC.

You are very current on old methods of analysis but today's photography and mathematics are much more sophisticated then they used to be. The idea I propose would be difficult to grasp if you lack some knowledge about physics and math, specifically what directional forces are and the different types of basic collisions that occur between to non-EM bodies.

Some reading I'd suggest is multivariable calculus, directional forces and physics 1, collisions. Anyone familiar with those texts would clearly identify the cue stick as a field of forces and that field is applied to the CB and bla bla bla more math bla bla math ... bla bla read the book.

Most people can simplify that field of forces into a resultant force and that idea is the one you discussed. I prefer to discuss the concept before any physics reductions.
Click to expand...
 
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