I really like how you pontificate your responses.
The Stroke Thread
- Thread starter justnum
- Start date
I really like how you pontificate your responses.
justnum - I believe the quickest path to resolution of this intellectual conflict is to post a video of you shooting at the table. Show this stroke in action, together with verbal descriptions so that we can learn from your knowledge.
Sincerely
Elliot <<< hoping to learn something
Sincerely
Elliot <<< hoping to learn something
In that stroke I was unable to pocket an object ball right in front of the cue ball at a diamonds length apart.
My experimental conditions were an OB and CB 1 diamond length apart straight in line with a pocket. The part I did not discuss was that I pocketed the object ball in the pocket right in front of it.
With a stroke like you suggested, I failed to pocket the object ball in my experiment.
My experiment goal was to gain side roll on the CB while pocketing an OB in the pocket straight ahead. If my contact between tip and CB were not the same as in a straight shot, I concluded I could not pocket the OB in the pocket straight ahead of it.
The application was in case I play defense and couldn't block a shot, the next best option would be to control the positional play. So I came up with the straight on defense the only way out would be a side roll, but the stroke for a side roll isn't common.
Usually I would put them on the rail, but I could never guess what they would do, in a straight pool match, the run out pattern is clear. With a straight on shot the next CB position is more predictable.
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I posted video on an earlier page. The camera angle is profile. The side roll effects are evident when I reach to reposition the CB for the next shot.
I wanted to mount the camera from overhead, but I didn't think about building a makeshift truss to mount it. I tried an over the shoulder angle, but after the CB comes to a rest it blocks the view of the OB going into the pocket.
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We need to take the human factor out of the equation so we can know what's really happening. Imagine you've mounted the two sticks on tracks that only allow them to move in the direction of the arrow, so the sticks hit the same spot on the CB, moving in the same direction and at the same speed, but just oriented ("pointed") differently.
Would you expect different results? What would the differences be?
pj
chgo
I will take a wild guess.
The path the CB will take will be different by about the same degree as the difference between the angles of the cues.
Reason why???.......They both are going send the ball in the direction that the cue stick is pointed....much more so than the direction of the path of the stroke.
The first one will have a slight deflection to the left....the second one will have very little or no deflection.
The first one will have quite a bit of right spin on the CB...The second one...not so much.
The first one is very easy to produce (by a human)...the second one is very difficult to produce (by a human)
No, they'll both send the CB in the same direction (except maybe for different amounts of squirt, but that's another thread). The CB doesn't know which way the stick is pointed, it only knows which way the tip is moving.
You've just repeated what you think the result will be; you haven't said why that would be the case.
I think it may be the opposite (another thread).
There shouldn't be any change in spin (remember, the CB only knows which way the tip is going, not which way the cue is pointing).
Maybe not so difficult. Isn't this what happens with swooping backhand english?
pj
chgo
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From reading your post above....we are way far apart on how we interpret BHE.
Neither of the diagrams are what I would call BHE.
The first one is a similar method to BHE...but not true BHE....I know a very good player that uses the method from the first picture....He has even said it is not "true" BHE because he never actually "pivots" the cue.....when he gets into his shot he just sets up that way....IF he were to actually pivot...the pivot point would be the tip of the cue....not the bridge....He would not be able to produce the pivot "swooping" style because of where his pivot point is....(the tip)
Swooping BHE still has a pivot....the pivot is just preformed during the stroke instead of right before the stroke.
Both diagrams show a center ball hit.
The way I understand (and apply) BHE is to set up center CB...and pivot the cue (off center)....The off center hit is what produces the deflection back on to the line of aim.
NOTE: I have a table right behind me and preformed both strokes with both cue angles.....The CB always travels in the direction that the cue is pointed.
The first diagram had a "slight" deflection to the left...but was still sending the CB way to the right of the direction of the second diagram.
The second diagram is very difficult to performe...but I was able to produce the stroke by rolling my bridge hand to the right as I made the stroke....I also had to move my grip hand to the right.....This kept the cue in the same orientation as the second diagram shown....
Perhaps I am misunderstanding the diagrams....
Just for reference.
I set the CB on the spot....My table has a rack line the runs from the spot to the rail to orient the rack square.
I guesstimated the stroke line angle to be pointed to about halfway between the corner pocket and the first diamond on the end rail.
For the first diagram
I angled the cue through center CB to the spot on the end rail (between the corner pocket and first diamond.)...This put the butt end of my cue pointed to the spot between the first end second diamond on the end rail right below me.
The result of the CB trajectory was for my cue was impact on the end rail halfway between the corner pocket and first diamond...(The CB had right hand spin)
For the second diagram
I orientate the cue pointed "square" with the bed of the table...I tried as best I could to produce a stroke path along the same angle as the first diagram...(from my end of the table starting between the first and second diamond to the opposite end between the corner pocket and first diamond)
Frankly I miscued at first since It is not a normal way to stroke a cue....I was able to produce a stroke path by moving both my stroke arm while sliding my bridge hand along the "shot" path.
The result was a CB trajectory that hit very near center diamond....(The CB had some right hand spin)
The CB may not know which way the stick is pointed...but it finds out real quick at impact...:wink:
I simplified the BHE one (the one on the right) to make it easier. Here's a more realistic one:
The idea is that a cue stick can strike the CB with the angle of the stick and the tip's direction of travel either parallel or not. But in both cases the CB only "feels" the tip and the direction it's moving - the orientation of the cue is not communicated to the CB.
pj
chgo
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Those questions are outside the parameters of my experiment. My experiment was for determining a method that can create position on the cue ball different from follow and draw on a straight in shot.
Your question is an interesting and worthwhile pursuit but I do not share an interest in that theoretical direction.
Translation:
"I now see that I am not the smartest person on the planet and for fear of being exposed even further I will retreat on my terms.
Cheers,
Narcissus
P.S. Will now make fun of you guys and all the other forum unwashed in an NPR thread you'll never read."
"I now see that I am not the smartest person on the planet and for fear of being exposed even further I will retreat on my terms.
Cheers,
Narcissus
P.S. Will now make fun of you guys and all the other forum unwashed in an NPR thread you'll never read."
How do you explain to someone who thinks that by digging into the table, and chopping at the cue ball... STRIKING THE CENTER OF THE CUE BALL. . .
does not a draw shot make?
they might happen to get some draw on occasion, but thats pretty much because this swooping action allows them to ACCIDENTALLY shoot off center. :woot:
its SOoo much easier to just do it right
does not a draw shot make?
they might happen to get some draw on occasion, but thats pretty much because this swooping action allows them to ACCIDENTALLY shoot off center. :woot:
its SOoo much easier to just do it right
New Stroke Situation
Side spin or side english or hitting the cueball not at its center is what I am citing as stroke for this post. The desired effect from the stroke is to get the cue ball to move sideways.
The next three situations demand a shot on the 5, pocketing the ball closest to the cue ball is not allowed, it is a constraint (restriction or limitation).
The first shot is the perfect reflection shot, meaning you can hit cueball center and level and on the natural aiming line to pocket the 5 ball (orange colored). It is well known that 'brewsters angle' dictates how to aim and pocket the kick.
View attachment 180816
What happens for situations where the cue ball and the object ball are not perfectly lined up.
One diamond length from the ideal situation with the same constraints is the next situation:
View attachment 180817
Two diamond lengths from the ideal situation with the same constraints is the next situation:
View attachment 180818
Common to the last two situations is the cue ball must travel the same sideways distance to pocket the 5 with a kick.
Since spin is being applied the diamond aiming system must be modified.
I will not discuss those modifications, they are pretty simple to discover.
SUGGESTION: Since the sideways distance the cueball travels is the same, that implies you use the same amount of "side-ward stroke."
Question: How is the aiming point on the rail in the last two shots related to the aiming point on the rail in the first shot?
Side spin or side english or hitting the cueball not at its center is what I am citing as stroke for this post. The desired effect from the stroke is to get the cue ball to move sideways.
The next three situations demand a shot on the 5, pocketing the ball closest to the cue ball is not allowed, it is a constraint (restriction or limitation).
The first shot is the perfect reflection shot, meaning you can hit cueball center and level and on the natural aiming line to pocket the 5 ball (orange colored). It is well known that 'brewsters angle' dictates how to aim and pocket the kick.
View attachment 180816
What happens for situations where the cue ball and the object ball are not perfectly lined up.
One diamond length from the ideal situation with the same constraints is the next situation:
View attachment 180817
Two diamond lengths from the ideal situation with the same constraints is the next situation:
View attachment 180818
Common to the last two situations is the cue ball must travel the same sideways distance to pocket the 5 with a kick.
Since spin is being applied the diamond aiming system must be modified.
I will not discuss those modifications, they are pretty simple to discover.
SUGGESTION: Since the sideways distance the cueball travels is the same, that implies you use the same amount of "side-ward stroke."
Question: How is the aiming point on the rail in the last two shots related to the aiming point on the rail in the first shot?
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