The Stroke Thread

ongoing processes started before contact......

Patrick Johnson said:
Sure, but it's still too small a time to be able to change the predetermined outcome of your stroke. That's still all determined before the tip touches the ball.

pj
chgo
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I agree that people cannot decide to change a course of action or implement some sort of instantaneous technique during that 1/1000th sec. contact time. But I have never, ever seen anyone including justnum say that they can. If a player has a particular technique that increases or decreases contact time, that technique may be a process that begins before contact and ends during or after contact. To argue against this is like saying that you cannot make tip contact with a cueball because your reflexes are not fast enough to complete an action within a thousandth of a sec. I use a technique that puts a ton of left english on the cueball ( I cannot do it with right english) and since it is impossible to perform by telling my muscles to do it at the exact moment of contact, I must begin the technique before contact and continue during contact. I hope I am not wasting my time trying to change your mind. Stroking a cue is a process that begins before the hit, and anything you do during that pre-contact time can influence the strike DURING the contact, even if it is a millionth of a second. Otherwise we would all be putting our tips up against the ball and push, or go back to using maces.
 
you're utilizing semantics to try and manipulate a point...

hunger strike said:
Since I have agreed with every single post I have ever seen you post, I will continue to agree about contact time being 1 to 2 1000ths of a second. Can anyone agree with me that 2 is double what 1 is? My only point is that contact time is not an absolute constant. I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with justnum.
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While saying that contact time is 1-2 thousandths of a second makes it appear that there is a variance at times of 100 percent that is not what is being said. It is between 1 and 2 thousandths of a second. The people who have done high speed photography of billiards and measured it have stated that difference in stroke can only make 1% or so of difference in the contact time. Yes, if stroke difference could change the contact time 100%, then you would have a valid point; however, it doesn't according to Dr. Dave and those who have actually done the research and measured it.

Jaden
 
Good question....

Neil said:
Question for you- have you ever tried one of the training cue balls? Such as the Rempe or Barton balls? I believe you would find that you just aren't hitting the cue ball where you think you are. If your "technique" worked one way, it would have to work the other way. The variable is that you aren't hitting it as far out when using right english.
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The technique I am using can only be done in one direction because of the anatomy of my hand; now that I have been discussing this I am going to try it left handed which would work. I will report back. I am not all that coordinated left handed but I am getting better.
 
Stroke difference? Please define

Jaden said:
While saying that contact time is 1-2 thousandths of a second makes it appear that there is a variance at times of 100 percent that is not what is being said. It is between 1 and 2 thousandths of a second. The people who have done high speed photography of billiards and measured it have stated that difference in stroke can only make 1% or so of difference in the contact time. Yes, if stroke difference could change the contact time 100%, then you would have a valid point; however, it doesn't according to Dr. Dave and those who have actually done the research and measured it.

Jaden
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You have semantics as well, and yours are too overgeneralized for me to even address. What do you mean by stroke difference? Difference in speed? Contact point on CB? Downward angle of tip? Checking your stroke on close shots? Many things can affect how a cue is propelled, and these are processes that may begin and end before contact, or may be begun and continued through contact. I think my point about propelling a cue being a process over time rather than an instantaneous action is very specific so please define "stroke difference" and provide a link because Dr. Dave has a lot of info to sift through. If you don't think that I am thoughtful enough to be objective about this, then consider my solution to this classic philosophical question: If you can mathematically divide the distance between a bowed arrow and its target in half, and dividing any number in half can be done indefinitely, then will the arrow never reach the target? We all know that the arrow does in fact hit the target. My answer is that there is nobody who can divide that fast and observe the results. Additionally, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies because you cannot simultaneously know the exact position and velocity of an object. If you know the exact position of the arrow, you cannot know whether it is still moving at zero or greater velocity. Semantics are important, and if I can narrow mine to suit you I will do so. In the above example, math, being a language, is a form of semantics that does not match the reality of the arrow in a target. And math is supposed to be an exact science. We are all students.
 
"you're utilizing semantics to try and manipulate a point"

The correct semantics for your post title should read "you're utilizing semantics to try TO manipulate a point," not "you're utilizing semantics to try AND manipulate a point." In Iowa it would be "TAKE and manipulate a point." I try TO do things and so do semantics experts.
 
ANY Difference!!!

hunger strike said:
You have semantics as well, and yours are too overgeneralized for me to even address. What do you mean by stroke difference? Difference in speed? Contact point on CB? Downward angle of tip? Checking your stroke on close shots? Many things can affect how a cue is propelled, and these are processes that may begin and end before contact, or may be begun and continued through contact. I think my point about propelling a cue being a process over time rather than an instantaneous action is very specific so please define "stroke difference" and provide a link because Dr. Dave has a lot of info to sift through. If you don't think that I am thoughtful enough to be objective about this, then consider my solution to this classic philosophical question: If you can mathematically divide the distance between a bowed arrow and its target in half, and dividing any number in half can be done indefinitely, then will the arrow never reach the target? We all know that the arrow does in fact hit the target. My answer is that there is nobody who can divide that fast and observe the results. Additionally, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies because you cannot simultaneously know the exact position and velocity of an object. If you know the exact position of the arrow, you cannot know whether it is still moving at zero or greater velocity. Semantics are important, and if I can narrow mine to suit you I will do so. In the above example, math, being a language, is a form of semantics that does not match the reality of the arrow in a target. And math is supposed to be an exact science. We are all students.
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No matter WHAT you do to the stroke to change it up, you will only affect the contact time between CB and tip by 1-2%.....You're again trying to use semantics to make a point.

Any change in stroke will not make a significant difference in Contact time length.

Math is logically an exact science, it is our application of it that is lacking in the real world, due to not being able to know all variables.

Jaden
 
hunger strike:
Stroking a cue is a process that begins before the hit, and anything you do during that pre-contact time can influence the strike DURING the contact, even if it is a millionth of a second.
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No additional influence is added "during" contact that didn't already exist at the moment before contact. You seem to agree with this, so it isn't clear what you're trying to add to that concept here.

pj
chgo
 
poolnoob said:
Takeeeee onnnnn meeeee......
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we drank a bottle of vodka and watched that Take On Me video frame by frame, it took a couple of house, it was a large bottle, back when it first came out. Interesting day that became....
 
couple of house????

Fatboy2 said:
we drank a bottle of vodka and watched that Take On Me video frame by frame, it took a couple of house, it was a large bottle, back when it first came out. Interesting day that became....
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wow seems like you might still be on a little of that vodka... :thumbup:

I'm sure you meant a couple of hours....but as I was reading that I was like how do you take a couple of house to watch a video, I know if anyone can do it it's Eric with as many houses as he owns. j.k. Eric...and yes I do know that you didn't own a bunch of houses when that video came out....

Jaden
 
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Overhead view of the stroke I like to discuss and call pendulum stroke.

View attachment 178634
The pendulum stroke before contact.


Overhead view of the a typical stroke.

View attachment 178635
A regular stroke before contact.

The strokes share the same contact point but approach the cue ball very differently.
 
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The Overhead view of Pendulum stroke

This is a concept model of pendulum stroke.

The distinctive pendulum motion based on the position of the cue tip is clear.

How much the cue ball pushes the cue stick back depends on the force you stroke with? If you apply too much force to the cue ball during the pendulum motion you risk pushing the cue ball, not stroking the cue ball.


View attachment 178636
 
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Neil said:
Justnum, Justnum, Justnum....:shakehead: Before you try and "educate" us, at least have the sense to learn common pool terms and what they mean. A pendulum stroke is a stroke without bending the elbow. The forearm acts like a pendulum.
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FYI to justnum, a complete description and demonstration of the "pendulum stroke" can be found here:

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Neil said:
Justnum, Justnum, Justnum....:shakehead: Before you try and "educate" us, at least have the sense to learn common pool terms and what they mean. A pendulum stroke is a stroke without bending the elbow. The forearm acts like a pendulum. If you are going to insist on giving new meanings to common terms, no one with a lick of sense will give you an ounce of credit for anything.

Another thing, if you are going to stroke like that, and IF you are right that it makes you play well, you should be very rich by now. Because anyone that sees you stroking like that will be begging to play you for money.;)
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ROTFL Neil :thumbup:

You made my terrible day at work a bit better :p

lg
Ingo
 
Since everyone is so familiar with the reference material, why can't you summarize it and write a convincing post detailing the weak points in my argument.

You are all subject matter experts in the field of referenced internet links, it should be a quick exercise, probably won't cost you much brainpower either.

I read it, it is pretty straightforward. But I am interested in your interpretation of how it applies to the concepts I am describing with pendulum stroke. I don't want to underplay the significance of your interpretation of how it applies in the situation of pendulum stroke as I defined it. I know you can do this, but will you do it? As a favor to me and the interested readers.

What do you have to say about it as it relates to what I am discussing?
 
justnum said:
Overhead view of the stroke I like to discuss and call pendulum stroke.

View attachment 178634
The pendulum stroke before contact.


Overhead view of the a typical stroke.

View attachment 178635
A regular stroke before contact.

The strokes share the same contact point but approach the cue ball very differently.
Click to expand...
Your "pendulum stroke" cue simply hits the CB from a different angle. (And if viewed from that different angle, it also hits the CB offcenter.)

How is that different from simply lining up with the cue pointed in the "pendulum" direction and stroking straight (as if compensating your aim for squirt)?

How is it different from "swooping backhand english"?

It appears that you're duplicating already well-known stroke effects that you're just unfamiliar with.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How is that different from simply lining up with the cue pointed in the "pendulum" direction and stroking straight (as if compensating your aim for squirt)?
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As the cuetip reaches the contact point it strikes the cue the same way the straight through stroke would in addition it applies a force driven sideways, as contact is made the friction created between the cuetip and cueball creates the torsion that provides the sideward roll. And I can still pocket the straight in shot.

The scenario you described is unclear to me. Try to explain it differently and/or use diagrams.
 
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