I've seen a lot of people say that A. Fisher and K. Corr's strokes are good, but not that good. People seem to say that because their strokes are mechanical that they wouldn't be good at 14.1. They bring up the Philipino players, and their fluid style, stating that the Philipinos can run more balls because of their style. I thought long and hard about it, and came up with 2 big names; Thomas Engret and Thorston Hohmann. Both players have mechanical strokes, and both players have run over 400 in 14.1. So I don't think it's the stroke entirely that determines how many balls one can run in 14.1, but rather the player's mindset and ability to plan runouts.
The Stroke (time for a debate)
- Thread starter AceHigh
- Start date
I don't remember anyone saying that you need a Filipino-style stroke to be a better STRAIGHT POOL player. Generally the good straight pool players have more compact strokes, i.e. Hohman. I think people said more that Allison and Karen don't have power strokes and they wouldn't hold up against the Filipinos in power games like 9-ball.
AceHigh said:
It's as Buddy Hall said. It's not the STROKE..it's the execution. There were and are great players who pretty much one stroke the ball (Allen Hopkins) and didn't do long or exaggerated preparation strokes. The only thing that counts is what happens after the tip hits the cue ball. The greatest 9 ball player of all time had a very short stroke (Wimpy Lassiter)...so, those comments are obviously coming from people who don't know what they're talking about.
Efren has a beautiful, wild stroke,....but it's NATURAL to him. You see tons of other players from his country trying to copy that style, and don't play as well...why?? Because they're trying to play like Reyes rather than develop their own style.
If you pay attention you will notice that all of the *great* players usually have a very individualized style of play. Buddy, Earl, Johnny A, Nick V, Efren Reyes, Jose Parice, Bustamante, Alex P, Grady M, the list goes on....none of those players play alike or have similar strokes.
Speaking of one-stroking the ball, that is pretty much Grady Mathews style and it has worked well for him over the years.
Ok, enough rambling on my part.
I'd like to talk about stroke. What is the most difficult part in making an inline stroke. What I mean by 'inline' is, coming forward in the same path that you took the stick back. I would think what makes it difficult is the transition, the changing from going back to going forward. If you don't come to a complete stop (even if only for a split second) I think there is a resulting loop which will start your forward stoke on a different path.
I wish I could get myself to stop longer at the end of my back stroke. Maybe like 1/2 to 3/4 of a second.
I wish I could get myself to stop longer at the end of my back stroke. Maybe like 1/2 to 3/4 of a second.
whoever these "people" are who told you that, you should pretty much discount anything they ever says to you again.
style has nothing to do with adaptability to a game.
and 14.1 is about the choices you make, not the swing in your stroke.
sounds like you're exagerrating what you heard and how many times you heard it. i can't believe there are that many dumb people saying those things.
style has nothing to do with adaptability to a game.
and 14.1 is about the choices you make, not the swing in your stroke.
sounds like you're exagerrating what you heard and how many times you heard it. i can't believe there are that many dumb people saying those things.
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One thing I have noticed is that players that play predominantly one pocket seem to have a shorter and punchier stroke. Most of the one-pocket in Rochester has pretty much faded out. I notice this in some of the older players that usually had played one pocket most the time.
In general, I agree that the type of stroke you use, is a matter of what is comfortable to you. The excess swing and sway that many see Philipinos players use does nothing more than loosen up the muscles so they can be more fluid. Some people ask how they can stroke straight, the fact is that they do and muscles are more relaxed. So their stroke has nothing to do with their interest in aligning the shot, they already know they are going to shoot straight, it is to make sure their muscles do not lock up. You see the same in golf, batters an baseball,..
In general, I agree that the type of stroke you use, is a matter of what is comfortable to you. The excess swing and sway that many see Philipinos players use does nothing more than loosen up the muscles so they can be more fluid. Some people ask how they can stroke straight, the fact is that they do and muscles are more relaxed. So their stroke has nothing to do with their interest in aligning the shot, they already know they are going to shoot straight, it is to make sure their muscles do not lock up. You see the same in golf, batters an baseball,..
The Filipinos stroke can be explained by slow cloth and humid conditions in the Philippines ( some pool rooms are outdoors and most are not AC'd if indoors ). They have to learn to have a long stroke and loosey-goosey wrist to get action on the cueball.LastTwo said:
Parica and Efren play mean straight-pool though.
Karen and Allison would get barbecued by regional players in the Philippines if they play on those tables.
Ernesto Dominguez said he couldn't even beat teenagers in Taiwan playing in there.
Let's face it, with Simonis cloth and ac'd rooms, you don't have much need for powerful stroke.
mr8ball
Active member
First off i want to say i am not trying to make a sell!! (Just trying to help) When i invented my stroketrainer i went out and talked to and watched all of the top players. I also confided in a few instructors and i feel that we all think the same thing. It is the last stroke to me that counts. I have traveled to a lot of tournaments and had the advantage of going out cleaning the tables and getting close to all of the pro players. In doing this i talked to all of them and watched them play. In my 3 years of doing this i could to see that no matter what was going on with the back end of the stick it was in the final stroke that everything took place. In that final stroke of all the top players the stroke was dead in line and they hit the cueball excately where they needed to. I think a lot of upcomeing players see what some of the top players do and try to copy it and it works for some and some it dosent. To me it is the straight line that counts. In your final stroke you must have a straight stroke and hit the cueball where you are aiming. If not the cueball will go off line and cause you to miss. (IMO) Thanks
Any professional player of a certain caliber has developed a stroke that is effective enough to play the game, and pro players with "weaker" strokes can still shoot power shots well, otherwise they wouldn't succeed. However, pros differ in what they can do with their stroke. Alex Pagulayan has a pretty remarkable kill stroke that not everyone can shoot, and Earl can really power the ball in situations where others may not be able to. I think the phillipinos and there strokes are admired because of their versatility: they can shoot a shot as soft as they come and they have a wicked power stroke too.
My personal observation is that alot of power in a stroke comes from how much room you have to stroke and follow through. If you watch Alison and Karen you will see that their hands are pretty close to their body, there is a limit to how much they can follow through comfortably, limiting their power. Deuel has as much room to stroke through as he wants, and can shoot some power shots others cannot. Even though there are plenty of players with short, pokey strokes, I wouldn't say any of them have "powerful" strokes compared to some other pros, i.e. strickland, deuel, nevel.
My personal observation is that alot of power in a stroke comes from how much room you have to stroke and follow through. If you watch Alison and Karen you will see that their hands are pretty close to their body, there is a limit to how much they can follow through comfortably, limiting their power. Deuel has as much room to stroke through as he wants, and can shoot some power shots others cannot. Even though there are plenty of players with short, pokey strokes, I wouldn't say any of them have "powerful" strokes compared to some other pros, i.e. strickland, deuel, nevel.
VonRhett said:
IMO power comes from hitting the cueball where you intended with speed. Being smooth makes your chances of doing that greater. Follow thru is simply the left over forward momentum of your stroke. If you hit the cueball harder, you follow thru more naturally. If you are not following thru and just stopping your cue, it means you are tightening up the muscles to do that, and that makes it harder to hit where you intended on the cueball.
VonRhett said:
actually, power does come from hitting the ball faster. but you have to have a smooth stroke to archieve hitting the cue ball at faster speeds accurately.
just a FYI for those of you that don't know his credentials, randyg knows what he's talking about, he's just being a bit sarcastic.
VAP
CaptainJR said:
not trying to nit pick here or anything, but its impossible not to stop for a split second when you make the transition.......otherwise you wouldn't make it.
some people's personal style does not allow them to do this as quick as others, and other people's personal style dictates that they do this faster.
everyone has to develope a straight stroke......i think thats a given. what alot of people sometimes never do is figure out their own rhythm or timing.
people see someone that plays good, they admire their stroke and they want to stroke like that.......but its just not them.
i'll use myself for example, since I'm the person i'm most familar with........i actually prefer to use a long bridge, a fast and loose, sometimes pump stroke. it actually FEELs better to me when i do it.......BUT i don't get the end results that i want.
if i use a slow methodical stroke with a shorter bridge (ala thorsten) the end results are FAR FAR FAR greater than the previous stroke. as time goes by this feels more natural, and i'm also rewarded for using it, so it has now for the most part become habit.
i see alot of people that are like this i believe, they have a very good stroke, but they haven't taken the time, or the patience and practice to find their own rhythm, they try to force a rhythm on themselves because they like it more even though the results aren't as good as they could be.
thanks
VAP
Argument you will never win ...
It will never be settled. That's like asking which baseball player had
the best swing? Evidently, the one that had the best hitting average
over lifetime playing (My choice would be Ted Williams, BTW).
You are trying to compare strokes of what is referred to as
'natural players' to 'logic players', which is an older argument.
Plus, it is argued that the older you get, the more you go towards
logic playing as opposed to natural type playing.
There are what they refer to as standard forms and execution techniques
that are judged to give the best results. These are templates for the
masses of individuals that take up the sport. Variations of these forms
and techniques are adapted by minority numbers of the sport due to
physical or preferential reasons they have. Sometimes their varied
style works, most of the time it doesn't. The few real good 'wierdos'
are the minority that their variance to the standard 'style' actually worked for them, but is not something that the majority should follow suit.
(example, Raphael Martinez's style of jumping balls with a side stroke because
of being shorter, but that does not mean everyone should do it that way).
It will never be settled. That's like asking which baseball player had
the best swing? Evidently, the one that had the best hitting average
over lifetime playing (My choice would be Ted Williams, BTW).
You are trying to compare strokes of what is referred to as
'natural players' to 'logic players', which is an older argument.
Plus, it is argued that the older you get, the more you go towards
logic playing as opposed to natural type playing.
There are what they refer to as standard forms and execution techniques
that are judged to give the best results. These are templates for the
masses of individuals that take up the sport. Variations of these forms
and techniques are adapted by minority numbers of the sport due to
physical or preferential reasons they have. Sometimes their varied
style works, most of the time it doesn't. The few real good 'wierdos'
are the minority that their variance to the standard 'style' actually worked for them, but is not something that the majority should follow suit.
(example, Raphael Martinez's style of jumping balls with a side stroke because
of being shorter, but that does not mean everyone should do it that way).
vapoolplayer said:
I believe that this is absolutely key to becoming consistant. Hopefully someone will chime in here with details, but I recall that someone (Cappelle ?) studied a bunch of matches, then analysed some number of games played by top pros. One of the more interesting conclusions (to me anyway) was that the top pros (Bustemante ??) took exactly the same number of warm up strokes, then played the stroke. He did things exactly the same each shot, and used the same amount of time-over-the-ball each time. Near the end he got a bit quicker, but stayed at that pace until the end of the match. In general they were consistant in their pace-of-stroke (my term for the elapsed time starting when you bend over the shot until the time the tip stikes the cue ball).
At the other end of the spectrum, I can't see how one could have a consistant, accurate stroke if one time you play the shot quickly, and the next (more difficult) shot is played slowly. I'm sure that many of us have predicted our opponents next miss with the thought "he's over that ball too long", which is an example of how we all know that inconsistant pace can wreck your stroke.
Dave
Follow-through does allow you to have more power: the more room you have to follow through, the more physical length you have at your disposal to accelerate the cue in a smooth, controlled fashion. If you look at Allison Fisher, there is a point beyond which she would have to alter her stroke drastically, i.e. drop her elbow, to follow through more, her hand comes to a natural rest fairly quickly. Corey Deuel on the other hand can follow through quite a bit without altering his stroke significantly. I think most would agree that Deuel has a more powerful stroke than Allison, if not watch some tapes from last U.S. open of him shooting some insane draw shots! Such a stroke has obvious advantages in certain circumstances in 9-ball, but a player can always choose to play strategy over attacking if they feel they can't comfortably power the ball.
As for "natural" vs. "logic" players, I just watched a match of Rodney Morris vs Tony Ellen, and they each respectively seem to be completely representative of the two types.
As for "natural" vs. "logic" players, I just watched a match of Rodney Morris vs Tony Ellen, and they each respectively seem to be completely representative of the two types.
