The Use of BHE - FHE Theory

[Flakeandrun]

Unless your possibly the best cueist on the planet and go by the name of Ronnie.

JV <-who uses a pause 75% of the time.

Sorry to contradict you

Don't be sorry Hu, your thoughts appreciated as always
Ronnie does have a brief pause, does he not JV? From my eye he does.
I think most snooker players will have, or have incorporated at some point, a more pronounced pause than most pool players (some of whom do not have an observable pause - although I would argue are still pausing, because I tend to think that prior to that moment of forward impetus, there is a moment of intention to drive the cue forward to the desired contact point, however brief that may be)

Wrong word... "consistently and more reliably" would be more accurate for sake of the conversation.

The numbers are the numbers. Long division on foolscap or scientific calculator. The method you use to reach the answer does not alter the answer.

isn't something that is 'consistent and reliable' therefore 'effective'?

I'm just splitting hairs here, this is a long boring conversation that I've actually gotten myself sucked into which I don't care all that much about

How so?

pj
chgo

because that 'dwell time' is occurring a result of the players intention, action and delivery of the cue, in order to ascertain the correct impetus on the ball. The more specific, and intentional, the more likely the ball is going to what is desired of it.

I wonder when and who made up all this shit in pool

Stupid acronyms and equations to make themselves feel better about not being any good in pool

Same here

 

[The_JV]

Ronnie does have a brief pause, does he not JV? From my eye he does.

Well im sure hes does what all other great cueists do and employs what best suits the moment. However he does not always employ a pause. It appears as a pause between back/forward strokes but in reality he uses a piston like movement that cycles between back/down/up/forward.

isn't something that is 'consistent and reliable' therefore 'effective'?

No... Effective suggests that the CB contact is somehow better. ...and if the end result (tip/ball contact) is the same regardless of the method, then it isn't more effective.

I'm just splitting hairs here, this is a long boring conversation that I've actually gotten myself sucked into which I don't care all that much about

Happens to me all the time here on AZB. I'll understand if you just want to pull the plug and agree to disagree.

 

[Flakeandrun]

Well im sure hes does what all other great cueists do and employs what best suits the moment. However he does not always employ a pause.

No human is a robot

It appears as a pause between back/forward strokes but in reality he uses a piston like movement that cycles between back/down/up/forward.

Isn't that technically true of everyone? It's impossible to truly move in a completely linear fashion.

No... Effective suggests that the CB contact is somehow better. ...and if the end result (tip/ball contact) is the same regardless of the method, then it isn't more effective.

If an action is reproducing that same intended contact more 'consistently and reliably' - so, more often producing the desired contact, then I would describe that as more 'effective' - certainly going to win you more matches, by 'consistently and reliably' achieving what you want to do with the ball (unless you're a fixer and your intention is to sack the game off haha)

Happens to me all the time here on AZB. I'll understand if you just want to pull the plug and agree to disagree.

It's ok, 20 minutes til my first meeting today, and you haven't used any silly abbreviations. I have the time to kill

 

[The_JV]

No human is a robot

Ok

Isn't that technically true of everyone? It's impossible to truly move in a completely linear fashion.

It's a purpose built rotational movement at the end of his backstroke. I would agree that likelihood someone could be 100% pistonic extremely unlikely. However that's different then someone using the motion

If an action is reproducing that same intended contact more 'consistently and reliably' - so, more often producing the desired contact, then I would describe that as more 'effective' - certainly going to win you more matches, by 'consistently and reliably' achieving what you want to do with the ball (unless you're a fixer and your intention is to sack the game off haha)

I prefer to use definitions of words. "Effective" isn't the correct one for what we're discussing

 

[Flakeandrun]

It's a purpose built rotational movement at the end of his backstroke. I would agree that likelihood someone could be 100% pistonic extremely unlikely. However that's different then someone using the motion

I think everybody pauses, like I mentioned previously, even when seemingly fluid in their cue action (Capito for example). There is a moment where our brain decides 'it's go time' and commits to a forward movement (whether this includes movement on another axis I would deem almost irrelevant, due to the subjective nature of individual stroke mechanics). The action undertaken to strike the cueball, is different from the action undertaken to prepare to strike the cueball.
You're right about the mechanics of the joint offering more flexibility than simply linear movement. I agree. But I don't think this is purposeful, more than it is just the nature of the anatomy of the person playing the shot.

I prefer to use definitions of words. "Effective" isn't the correct one for what we're discussing

if the desired result achieved is 'consistent and reliable' and therefore the desired or intended result is achieved more often, does it not therefore by the nature of these words become more effective?

 

[ShootingArts]

although I would argue are still pausing, because I tend to think that prior to that moment of forward impetus, there is a moment of intention to drive the cue forward to the desired contact point, however brief that may be)

Those that can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time may not need to pause while having that moment of intention!(grin) More seriously, a player should have crossed the line of demarcation while standing. If I pause, which I do occasionally, It is for a gathering of focus, either on the stroke or exactly where the balls are going.

You seem like you may have thinking going on in the down position even if only for a moment, a bad thing. An important key to my play is that each inning should be one continuous action. Granted if there is an error I have to straighten up and regroup. However, if an inning is going smoothly, one ball or ten, there isn't any thought process once I lean over to hit the first ball.

Anyone thinking in the down position needs to start by setting up a simple three ball run. When they can run those little set-ups without thought they should add balls or difficulty. How much do we think about driving a vehicle? We might drive thirty minutes or an hour without thinking about driving. No reason we can't run balls for two to five minutes without thinking about it.

Hu

 

[Flakeandrun]

Those that can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time may not need to pause while having that moment of intention!(grin) More seriously, a player should have crossed the line of demarcation while standing. If I pause, which I do occasionally, It is for a gathering of focus, either on the stroke or exactly where the balls are going.

I tend to do the same. But I do this on every shot. I am not thinking about anything other than where I hit the cueball. It's more like 'steadying the ship' so that the intended cue action can take place most reliably.

You seem like you may have thinking going on in the down position even if only for a moment, a bad thing. An important key to my play is that each inning should be one continuous action. Granted if there is an error I have to straighten up and regroup. However, if an inning is going smoothly, one ball or ten, there isn't any thought process once I lean over to hit the first ball.

Indecision, or understanding and adapting the process of play, is something that I have had to work on a lot coming from snooker. I did indeed often have more than one option in my head, or indecision at times. But that is what Pre-shot routine is for. Having the opportunity to play with great players, has been a great learning process, and something I have enjoyed most about playing.

Adapting the cue action from snooker was a challenge for me to begin with. I have the same pause in my action, for the same purpose. But other aspects needed alteration. The pause is not for thinking, that is what we do when we are standing and observing the table. When you are down on the shot, you have committed to the desired shot, and have imagined your perfect outcome. The pause, is more like I mentioned, 'steadying the ship' ready to deliver the cue reliably.

Anyone thinking in the down position needs to start by setting up a simple three ball run.

I mean, I tend to always play the table as it lies on approach, I visualize perfect sure, but not everything goes to plan all the time. Thinking 9/10 balls into the future can be done, but accepting that perfectly aligning 9/10 shots is not a given, and that being fixed to one plan can actually create more indecision, or frustration, should be acknowledged.

In my experience trying to solve those issues that naturally arise, or the outcomes that are not expected, needs to be done in each and every shot "did I land where I imagined? how far from that point? how must I adjust my next shot to continue with the plan?" Thinking 2 or 3 balls in advance is far more productive. The outcome isn't always going to be as expected, and fluidity is needed to alter and adjust the plan. Naturally, problem balls need to be considered from ball 1, but there should always be 'options' available for when things go awry.

Decision making is always done when approaching the table, PSR prepares you for the shot at hand that you have selected based on your observation, the shot can then take place. That's how I've worked my game presently at least. I have far more success in running the table that way.

How much do we think about driving a vehicle? We might drive thirty minutes or an hour without thinking about driving.

I don't know, it depends on several things. You'd crash pretty quickly where I'm from But then we do not have motorways/highways. We have many old twisting and turning roads. You'd be a fool to do that on the enormous, multi-lane roads, filled with cars, where I currently find myself living. But I can see your point from my experiences driving long roads, long miles and long hours, during my time in the US.

No reason we can't run balls for two to five minutes without thinking about it.

I mean, there are definitely those times where less thought is required, but that is depending on many variables. In game pressures, and the psychology involved in playing a top player being just one example - this will have you second guessing yourself far more than when you are showing off to a girl you brought on a date

 

[book collector]

I avoid all of the nuances of these types of systems, by putting a ruler
from the ferrule of my cue to 1 foot in front of the joint.
It is marked in 1/16th inch increments lengthwise and divided into 8 parts iaround the circumference, since you can only see 4 sides at one time I have 4 marked in red and 4 in blue, this gives me adjustment points for speed, aiming, throw, many things the average player would never consider.

 

[straightline]

I avoid all of the nuances of these types of systems, by putting a ruler
from the ferrule of my cue to 1 foot in front of the joint.
It is marked in 1/16th inch increments lengthwise and divided into 8 parts iaround the circumference, since you can only see 4 sides at one time I have 4 marked in red and 4 in blue, this gives me adjustment points for speed, aiming, throw, many things the average player would never consider.

How do you get the balls to lock in?

 

[book collector]

How do you get the balls to lock in?

That part costs money my friend, lots of money, it was shown to me by an monk in Tibet, that the villagers said was over 200 years old. Before he became a monk, he was a pool hustler in Katmandu. Legend has it that Willie Mosconi went there for an exhibition and this guy won all his money and refused to give him walking money and Willie had to wire Fats to send him bus fare.

 

[straightline]

That part costs money my friend, lots of money, it was shown to me by an monk in Tibet, that the villagers said was over 200 years old. Before he became a monk, he was a pool hustler in Katmandu. Legend has it that Willie Mosconi went there for an exhibition and this guy won all his money and refused to give him walking money and Willie had to wire Fats to send him bus fare.

Crap I'll never make the cut.

 

[Justaneng]

IMO a “good stroke” is doing is simplifying the commands your brain sends out to execute a stroke.

The pause makes sure all the “make arm go backward” signals your brain just sent out are clear of the system before the “make arm go forward” signals are sent out, so that part of the forward stroke doesn’t involve a timed relaxation of your triceps.

A loose grip means your brain doesn’t have to keep track of what the pinky on your shooting hand is doing.

It’s all not necessary per se, and if you’re starting off young you can probably adapt to anything. Additionally if you tried to fix it, the cost of tearing everything down to rebuild it might not be worth it.

But, in principle if you’re cutting the number of muscles your brain is trying to control in a stroke from 100 to 30 or so, you can reach a point of repeatability faster and start fine tuning aim and speed control sooner. Especially true if the first time you pick up a cue is when you’re an adult and your brain is less able to readily learn new motions.

 

[sammylane12]

Front Hand English (FHE) is the act of applying sidespin by moving your bridge hand laterally either as you place it down on the table or as an adjustment right after.

Back Hand English (BHE) is the act of apply sidespin by moving your back hand laterally so that the front of the cue pivots on your bridge hand and the tip of the cue moves laterally in the other direction. This is not a swooping action in your stroke, it’s how you align before doing normal forward strokes.

Natural Pivot Length (NPL) is the bridge length you need so that applying BHE will result in the deflection of the cueball and the spin-induced throw on the object ball net each other out. In other words you can start your aim as if it was a straight in shot with no adjustments and use BHE to introduce sidespin to a shot. Or if your stroke is bad and accidentally introduces sidespin you’re still likely to pocket the ball.

Take note that high deflection shafts like traditional low end maple shafts will require a short bridge length to achieve the NPL. Low deflection shafts like modern high end CF shafts will require a long bridge length to achieve the NPL. Some observe the bridge length to achieve NPL for modern high end CF shafts is too long to be practical (upwards of 18”).

Some criticize this approach for not accounting for the speed and distance of the shot and the swerve that factors in. Some say that this lets you simplify your adjustments to only need to accommodate the swerve. Some say this is a good approach but a certain amount of BHE and FHE are needed in combination for the NPL to function properly. Some say the amount of BHE and FHE may vary depending on the category of shot.

And some just think this is too left brained of thinking for pool and you just need to practice enough where all the dynamics and adjustments are just ingrained in your brain and to trust your subconscious mind to know how the shot needs to be approached and aligned.

I remember someone asking John Brumback about this nonsense. He looked at the guy like he had 2 heads and said "I don`t know what any of that is, I just play pool.

 

[Zerksies]

A shit stroke makes all this front hand and back hand useless. If you can't deliver consistency it don't matter what spin you put on the ball

 

[ShootingArts]

I remember someone asking John Brumback about this nonsense. He looked at the guy like he had 2 heads and said "I don`t know what any of that is, I just play pool.

Yup, go in a major pool hall and start asking the rail the questions we debate endlessly on AZB. Most will give you a dumb look. While they understand the forces affecting the balls they don't know or care what the names are. The last time I checked, nine out of ten of the old timers on the rail had never heard of AZB. Most without kids in school didn't own computers.

There could be entire college courses on the science behind pool. If you want help with a problem shot though, stay away from the science guys and ask an old timer. His english may not be too good and he may create a word when he needs it now and then but if the ball can be made he probably knows how.

Book learning is a wonderful thing, but so is experience.

Hu

 

[MattPoland]

I remember someone asking John Brumback about this nonsense. He looked at the guy like he had 2 heads and said "I don`t know what any of that is, I just play pool.

Interesting enough Jeremy Jones does educational videos for APA. He advocates an FHE-only approach. He doesn’t use that terminology. But for me being familiar with the vocabulary I can say that to some people here and they’ll know exactly what I’m saying instantly and have a frame of reference of the alternative techniques he is choosing not to favor. I think it makes for a richer conversation even for those that don’t incorporate these techniques into their own game.

 

[ShootingArts]

Interesting enough Jeremy Jones does educational videos for APA. He advocates an FHE-only approach. He doesn’t use that terminology. But for me being familiar with the vocabulary I can say that to some people here and they’ll know exactly what I’m saying instantly and have a frame of reference of the alternative techniques he is choosing not to favor. I think it makes for a richer conversation even for those that don’t incorporate these techniques into their own game.

I really like how front hand english works and setting the bridge in place is no harder than doing it for parallel offset. I don't know why I don't use it more except years of habit.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I really like how front hand english works and setting the bridge in place is no harder than doing it for parallel offset.

My understanding is that FHE means fixing the grip hand in place on the shot line and moving only the bridge hand sideways to apply english and compensate for squirt. Of course, that only works as advertised when the grip is right at the "natural pivot point" for your shaft (not likely - too far back) and there's no swerve to adjust for (the shot is short and/or hit hard). For most shots, some adjustment for swerve must be made after (or while) shifting the bridge hand sideways. So I assume when you say "how front hand english works" you're talking about both ways (with and without adjustment for swerve)...?

I think when most players say front hand english (or "parallel" english) they really mean placing the cue on the squirt/swerve-corrected angle that they've learned through practice and memory ("by feel").

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

Why bother. Why bother knowing the weight of your cue, why bother knowing your cue length, why bother knowing the diameter of your tip, why bother knowing the hardness of your tip. Why bother. The natural pivot point (NPL) is just another characteristic of a cue that one can measure to gain knowledge of the cue’s performance. Also, knowledge of NPL between cues will give one an indication how to apply spin between the cues. For example if I went from a Revo (NPL around 19”) to a Cynergy (NPL around 14”) I know that I would be applying a lot less FHE.



From your perspective, with all the cue sports that you seemly participate in, I can understand why you would say “why bother”. With your experience you can probable pick up any cue and have it figured out within several shots. However, for me, I need to apply my analytical skills to give me a good starting point to begin to develop those skills with the time I left on this earth.

Give me a couple dozen shots with it and I'll be onto most cues. Without calculation. It's this magical thing I like to call feel.

There's no one way to do pool. After all, we're just hitting balls with a stick.

 

[Zerksies]

The geeks try to justify their suckiness. Pool has a high amount of feel to it. People are not perfect machines and even the best of us can't deliver excatly the same evertime. You need to go with the punches and deal with what life gave you.