The violation of "The Lacey Act"

Z

Zbotiman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is NO JOKE, if you like Ebony points or Rosewood or Ebony anywhere in your cue, this Law "DOES" pertain to you! In effect, if you have either of these woods in your cue, today, and you go across an International border, your cue can be confiscated and you could be placed in detention in a foreign country, right now! Please take a close look at this link; http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f87_1315045193
This happened in the great state of Tennessee, right here in these United States! This "IS" something to contact your Congress people about, today! In truth, if we don't do something about this right now, we may not have a tomorrow worth living in!!
By the way, here's an overview of the wording of this Act.http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm
Looks pretty innocent on paper, but it brought the full force of the F.B.I. armed S.W.A.T. team into a factory producing guitars and arrested innocent factory workers, right here in the good ole U.S. of A.!!!:rolleyes:
 
Ought to be posted in the cue makers section. The balls of this government to crash a factory guns drawn is idiotic. We're lucky no one was shot.
Gibson has been raided twice now. A lot of material was stolen from them. I say stolen because after they demonstrated compliance with the law after the first raid, the woods taken were not returned.

:cool:
 
Even persons not in the pool world are up on this subject. Another example of taking the intent of a law and blowing it way out of proportion, $$$.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, the post being right where it is. There are a lot of players here who travel abroad.

Just saying.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this pertain to a complaint filed by the Indian government about illegally harvested wood. I thought Gibson acquired it through a third party with no knowledge of it being illegally obtained.
 
"As I understand it."

stumpie71 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this pertain to a complaint filed by the Indian government about illegally harvested wood. I thought Gibson acquired it through a third party with no knowledge of it being illegally obtained.
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Originally, back somewhere after WW1, Gibson negotiated a
contract with the government officials in Madagascar, to export exclusively to them, all of their Ebony. That meant most of the cue-point woods were coming from this importer. Gibson was directly the primary source of all Gabon Ebony. So, that priceless Szamboti you have with an Ebony butt sleeve, and matching Ebony points, is subject to this law, to be confiscated! [As an example, Willie Nelson no longer tours in Europe, because "he's" afraid his (precious to him) 60 year old guitar will be confiscated].

According to the statements Gibson is making on the video, it's not the Indian Government that's behind this. It's Indian (International) Law, enforced by the fish and wildlife bureau and the F.B.I.
According to the statements made by Gibson, they renegotiated the contract with the Indian government after the first incident.

P.S. The first link posted is "The Alex Jones Show," and his take on this. This is the title of the link I posted, it appears at the bottom of that article as; "Gibson Guitar Corp. Responds to Armed Federal Raid."
 
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Exotic woods

Nobody ever said life was fair. If you lose a cue because the laws are trying to protect the planet...so be it. I would rather lose a cue stick than lose an entire species for vanities sake.

The law is there for good reason.
 
rrick33 said:
Nobody ever said life was fair. If you lose a cue because the laws are trying to protect the planet...so be it. I would rather lose a cue stick than lose an entire species for vanities sake.

The law is there for good reason.
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Reading is for EVERYONE...... If you were to have read the 2nd link in the original post completely you would know that this law is not to protect the species but for economic reasons.... Had the woods been finished into fret boards they would have been exempt from regulation. ALL INDIAN harvested materials are subject to the same law... They cannot be exported legally in raw material form... They can be exported as components or veneers < 6mm.... I would expect Gibson will be forced to open a small shop in India to create components for legal shipment.... Say goodbye to a few more American jobs.......

As for Cues being subject to fines and seizures..... In all likely hood any cue made using Indian ebony/rosewood is illegal because the wood would have been illegally imported in raw material form.... Knowingly being in possession of the cue makes you a criminal........
 
Attached is the basis for the Warrant served on Gibson... If you jump towards the end it goes over the basis in Indian Law.... A thorough read will basically leave you with the understanding that they can seize your custom cue and charge you with a crime and fine you 10,000USD for Knowingly owning it..... I wonder if we will get to see the feds show up at Valley Forge at some point confiscating cues, charging criminal offenses and issuing fines...... http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf

Gibson is facing indictments not only because they were in possession of the wood but the documents that brought the wood thru customs were fraudulently filled out... They knew they were in violation based on those actions.....
 
Rosewood from India comes with a tooled edge, making it legal for export/import. They take the boards & literally run one edge across a shaper to give a fancy edge. This somehow qualifies the wood as legal because Indian labor worked the material into a product so it's no longer a raw material. What we are buying is a finished product, and as owners we are free to transform that product into anything we wish. In this case, cues. It's legal. The wood has already been through the hooplah by the time we get it.

As for ebony, the vast majority of ebony in cues comes from Gabon, a country in west Africa. It's nowhere near India. And if any fish & game agent can actually determine Madagascar ebony from Gabon ebony in the form of a finished cue, the guy is a psychic because both are absolutely black. Only a DNA test would reveal the identity. And cutting a 1000 ebony cues in VF 'may' potentially reveal one singular cue with Madagascar ebony. Quite frankly, the operation would cost exponentially more than they'd receive in fines. Point being, it's not going to happen. No need to worry.

The guitars, on the other hand, are built from raw materials. Gibson was buying lumber, not processed products. That's why they're in trouble. I know of several large scale importers of lumber and NONE have mentioned any issues with legalities. I buy from each & every one of them. Every time I get a piece of Indian lumber, especially rosewood, it has one worked edge. That's the way it comes in to them direct from India, and how they pass it on to me. That's not what was going on with Gibson.
 
qbilder said:
Rosewood from India comes with a tooled edge, making it legal for export/import. They take the boards & literally run one edge across a shaper to give a fancy edge. This somehow qualifies the wood as legal because Indian labor worked the material into a product so it's no longer a raw material. What we are buying is a finished product, and as owners we are free to transform that product into anything we wish. In this case, cues. It's legal. The wood has already been through the hooplah by the time we get it.

As for ebony, the vast majority of ebony in cues comes from Gabon, a country in west Africa. It's nowhere near India. And if any fish & game agent can actually determine Madagascar ebony from Gabon ebony in the form of a finished cue, the guy is a psychic because both are absolutely black. Only a DNA test would reveal the identity. And cutting a 1000 ebony cues in VF 'may' potentially reveal one singular cue with Madagascar ebony. Quite frankly, the operation would cost exponentially more than they'd receive in fines. Point being, it's not going to happen. No need to worry.

The guitars, on the other hand, are built from raw materials. Gibson was buying lumber, not processed products. That's why they're in trouble. I know of several large scale importers of lumber and NONE have mentioned any issues with legalities. I buy from each & every one of them. Every time I get a piece of Indian lumber, especially rosewood, it has one worked edge. That's the way it comes in to them direct from India, and how they pass it on to me. That's not what was going on with Gibson.
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Blue Hog ridr said:
Hey, thats an oldie Mountain Dew label.
Do you remember that off to the side it always said who it was filled by.
As in, Filled by Bill and Edna.

There are so many types of rose wood for example, it might be hard to determine the difference between East Indian and Brazilian.

When you are traveling, you check your cues in a traveling case before you board. I suppose if you were traveling abroad, you might have to open your belongings in front of a customs officer. I don't know, I have never been out of continent. As far as I know, the handlers check your baggage thru to your next flight and if you're lucky, you might get
them when you land.

Exactly when might you find yourself in a situation that you might have to
show someone your cues?

I think people are getting too excited about something that will never happen.

Maybe a larger production cue company might get raided but for the amount of wood the average cue maker will have on hand, I doubt it would raise any eyebrows. The exotic wood suppliers might get a visit sometime tho, never know.
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I hope everyone is on point about this. I just don't trust the Feds to know where to stop.... India didn't have a problem with the import, our Gestapo did....

To paraphrase just a little bit of history....

First they came for the guitar builders...
And I didn't speak out because I was not a guitar builder....

I just hope we all speak out before they come for our cues =)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came…
 
The Renfro said:
I hope everyone is on point about this. I just don't trust the Feds to know where to stop.... India didn't have a problem with the import, our Gestapo did....

To paraphrase just a little bit of history....

First they came for the guitar builders...
And I didn't speak out because I was not a guitar builder....

I just hope we all speak out before they come for our cues =)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came…
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The rope can only be wound so tight before it breaks....and I fear that time is near. When that happens, cues are the last thing we should be worried about.
 
qbilder said:
The rope can only be wound so tight before it breaks....and I fear that time is near. When that happens, cues are the last thing we should be worried about.
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Well at least they will make good clubs to fend off the looters when I run out of ammo :(
 
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