The Wilson Compromise

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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ok, i've been working on the total overhaul that Mark Wilson has made in my stance, stroke, alignment, setup, etc, and i think i am going to sort of compromise between his ideas and my comfort zone.

i think he has excellent thoughts in that the upper arm needs to remain motionless (dont spill the coffee) while the forearm swings. he's right in that you absolutely have to hit the cueball where you want to hit it. but if i turn my whole body the way he wants me to, it feels very uncomfortable, and i cant get relaxed. so i am going with sort of a compromise, sort of a cross between what he wants, and where i was.

i have moved my arm away from the body slightly, and concentrate on hitting the cueball where i should. but i am not going to turn as much as he wants me too, nor am i moving my grip hand so far back that its past the linen wrap.

have to see where this leads, hopefully i can get back into sync. i also liked his thoughts on the break shot, that being that it is just basically the same stroke as any shot.

regards,
DCP
 
DCP.. are we talking 30-45- 70 degree angle here? Also on your backswing, your back arm should line up with the cue. Have someone check this. If you need to hold the cue past the wrap.. you need a longer cue. How tall are you? Do you have real long arms? :confused:
 
i would guess the angle is about 70 degrees. dont have real long arms, am about 6'1" or 6'2", dunno.

mark did think i needed a longer cue, not completely sure i tee-totally agree with that or not. if i have a Jacoby made might have it made just a hair longer.

my main focus is going to be hitting the cue ball where i am aiming, and holding the arm still while the forearm does the work.

funny, when he measured my break speed, i thought i would be up around 22 MPH on the hard ones. i went from around 16.6, to 17.8, to around 18.7. i thought sure i was hitting them harder than 19 MPH, but the main thing is to hit them solid.

DCP
 
DCP.. it seems like you need a 60 inch cue.. Do not get a wrap on it as this will confuse your hand placement.. You really don't need a wrap anyway. A 70 degree angle is kind of strange but, maybe your body type needs this to stroke straight. I am sure Mark checked this out. :confused:
 
DCP,
An interesting thread. After my first lesson with Mark, I spent many months trying to develop his type of stroke. There were many fine points where I was not sure what he would recommend. I did not develop any super bad habits luckily enough. I did NOT however, purposely do anything different than what I could remember him saying. I did everything that he said, no questions asked - he can run 200, I could only run 30. I felt VERY comfortable with my old stroke, but I sucked (compared to now). I didn't want to feel comfortable, I wanted to play well. I think it took a few months to feel fairly comfortable, and about a year to have it start feeling natural (to the point where I can now work on tempo, not just mechanics). I made the change right in the middle of last year's straight pool league, lost a few matches in a row, but felt it was worth it; within 3 or 4 weeks I was playing JUST as well as before, and have done nothing but improve since. Now I'm stomping some guys that used to be much better than me - it's fun.

Anyone who wants instant (or even rapid) gratification should probably not enter into the process of a total revamp. Good luck with whatever you decide, but I think if I was spending the cash, I would probably try to follow his instruction exactly (of course you may see him again, and perhaps he will agree with your modifications; in which case you should ignore everything I'm saying if you haven't already). I'm sure many will say there is more than one way to play expertly (and they would be exactly right), but I have no faith in my ability to develop it in any reasonable amount of time; I would much rather have someone show me. I think if you have an hour or two a day to devote to pool, then the sky's the limit if you are developing a great stroke.
 
DCP,

I never took lessons from Mark but I'd like to clarify some of the things you're saying here. You say that the upper arm should not move at all huh? What about dropping your elbow on a power stroke? I believe almost all of the pros do that. As for your hand placement on the grip, I would think it is more important to have your arm, from your hand to your elbow, in a straight line to the floor when your cue tip is almost touching the cb. That determines where your hand placement is on your cue more than anything else, imho. You may indeed need a longer cue.
 
Rickw said:
I would think it is more important to have your arm, from your hand to your elbow, in a straight line to the floor when your cue tip is almost touching the cb. That determines where your hand placement is on your cue more than anything else, imho. You may indeed need a longer cue.
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RickW,
Good advice; that is exactly what Mark W. told me when developing my stroke. And to develop your thought a little further; the location of the grip on the cue butt will CHANGE depending on the shot at hand. When you change your bridge length on rail shots and jack up shots your hand position should also change so that the forearm again is perpendicular at impact. All of this allows your swing to become freer, MORE natural, more powerful, and more resistant to tension and pressure (at least it sure did for me). I hope that the "DCP modifications" still allow him a free arm swing with the forearm perpendicular near impact.

However, I guess if you practice ANY swing long enough it will feel natural and comfortable - that however is not my goal - I just want to get good enough to play SJM at straight pool without him busting a gut laughing at me.
 
Even a minute change that is made in the grip, setup, or stroke will feel uncomfortable in the beginning. It sounds like he put you through a major overhaul so you probably feel way out of kilter. However, from an instructors point of view, he sees things that you don't and each change is like twisting a Rubiks cube into the proper sequence to make it come out properly. Although you want to alter a few things right now which "feels" more like your old way, your Rubiks cube could be getting distorted with each adjustment. You need to do exactly what he said for at least a month and in time your old way will feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately, many times you get worse before you get better after a lesson, especially a lesson with many changes. You have to trust your instructor. If you don't, get another instructor or work extremely hard at becoming a better student. I've always found the biggest problem with a students progress to be impatience and omniscience.
 
Driver's Got It Right!

A long, long time ago, I was told that my head was popping up on my final stroke. The way I was told to cure it was - to force my head to stay still completely until ALL balls stopped rolling. I played terrible for 2 or 3 weeks but it killed the bad habit. - Thanks, Buddy
TY & GL
 
Williebetmore said:
RickW,
Good advice; that is exactly what Mark W. told me when developing my stroke. And to develop your thought a little further; the location of the grip on the cue butt will CHANGE depending on the shot at hand. When you change your bridge length on rail shots and jack up shots your hand position should also change so that the forearm again is perpendicular at impact. All of this allows your swing to become freer, MORE natural, more powerful, and more resistant to tension and pressure (at least it sure did for me). I hope that the "DCP modifications" still allow him a free arm swing with the forearm perpendicular near impact.

"I just want to get good enough to play SJM at straight pool without him busting a gut laughing at me".

HEY, WHAT ABOUT ME? I'LL SEE & PLAY YOU AT THE DCC? - TOM

TY & GL
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OldHasBeen said:
Williebetmore said:
"I just want to get good enough to play SJM at straight pool without him busting a gut laughing at me".

HEY, WHAT ABOUT ME? I'LL SEE & PLAY YOU AT THE DCC? - TOM

TY & GL
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OHB, it goes without saying that you get the winner between me and Willie. I ran a 51 in my practice today, so I think I'm ready for Willie, but it might not get it done against a thoroughbred like yourself. I best keep practicing.
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I don't play straight pool but,,,,,,,

sjm said:
OHB, it goes without saying that you get the winner between me and Willie. I ran a 51 in my practice today, so I think I'm ready for Willie, but it might not get it done against a thoroughbred like yourself. I best keep practicing.
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If it's cheap and you explain the rules, I'll play with you guys at DCC. Looking forward to playing Willie. I'd also like to see OHB hit about a dozen balls and see if he is an old has been.{ I kinda doubt it}
 
Jeez, I hate to continue hijacking this thread, but I should respond to my 3 heroes (SJM, OHB, and Satman):

SJM,
I've still never run 50 (only ran in the 40's 3 times), but you know you have an open invitation for room, board, and lodging the next time you are in town. I'm hoping my few days with Danny D. in January will bring my game up (hopefully from mediocre all the way up to "way below average").

OHB,
I will definitely be at the DCC the 19th to the 22nd. I am only planning to watch this year, since I only get to go to 2 tournaments a year. Since my only game is 14.1 with a red circle cue ball (have never even tried a blue circle), it sounds like the chances of me contributing to your retirement fund are somewhat slim; but I will DEFINITELY try to sweat one of your matches if you are still alive in the one pocket when I get there.

Satman,
You also have a standing invitation for pool (babysitting provided if you need it); next Sunday is good, PM me any time you are interested.
 
If you guys do get together..hey just have a good time! This isn't the World Championship! If I had the money I would come and let SJM or OHB kick me around the table and still be happy I met them and played with them! :)
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
ok, i've been working on the total overhaul that Mark Wilson has made in my stance, stroke, alignment, setup, etc, and i think i am going to sort of compromise between his ideas and my comfort zone.

i think he has excellent thoughts in that the upper arm needs to remain motionless (dont spill the coffee) while the forearm swings. he's right in that you absolutely have to hit the cueball where you want to hit it. but if i turn my whole body the way he wants me to, it feels very uncomfortable, and i cant get relaxed. so i am going with sort of a compromise, sort of a cross between what he wants.........


word of caution: just make sure that what feels "comfortable" to you isn't a bad habit. anything you do over time will eventually feel comfortable. as drivermaker has said, anything you change in it will be uncomfortable. i would if i were you, try to do exactly what mark said for a while. odds are that you will improve and find it comfortable after a few weeks.

my .02
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Just thought... if you have been playing for ages and want to get rid of bad habits, do you think you should take a break from the game, maybe a month or so and try to sort of forget your stance etc. and then make a comeback with professional lessons and try to build a better stance and stroke ? Do you think it would work better and your subsconscious and muscle memory would be more adapt to changes ?

I took a few months off a few years ago, but I didn't take any lessons when I returned. I watched a lot of pool during the break and I noticed that almost all top pros are so relaxed or at least their shooting arms are. So, on my comeback, I started paying attention to relaxation, how to shoot more relaxed and I didn't pay much attention to my arms and body alignment. Suddenly, I played much better than I used to.

My two cents...
 
I read a great article one time and I can't remember who the player was that was being interviewed, but I think he was one of our local, Northern California, players. Anyway, he said that you should only change one thing in your game at a time. Work on that one change for about 2 weeks and then you will automatically incorporate it into your game. If you try changing more than one thing, you probably won't make the correct adjustments in all changes and you won't incorporate them into your game that well. So, I would suggest taking the most significant change Mark gave you and work just on that for 2 weeks. Then, take the next thing that he suggested and work on it for another 2 weeks.
 
I went to see Mark. He recommended the same changes in grip, stance, arm position etc that you have been talking about. I have made every change he recommended. I don't think I know what I'm doing. I'm an novice, he's an expert. I'll do it his way. Comfort is not the goal but comfort will come with time and repitition.

Don't diminish the chances for significant improvement to satisfy the desire to be comfortable now. You went to Mark to learn how to do it right.
 
You guys are so lucky to have access to instruction. Where I am, there are no instructors, and I'd have to drive God knows how far to get some pro-instruction.
 
Chees Dawg- I know what you mean!! There are tons of players that would die to live 15 minutes from an Instructor like Mark Wilson, but I'm not in a position to move just yet! haha! I live 15 minutes from Mark and play with him when I get the chance. I've never taken lessons from him, but do set back and watch him when he plays.
Where are you from?

Zim
 
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