The worst tournament director in the world :/

ScottW

Fo' shizzle!
Silver Member
After last night's adventures, I felt like I'd share with the rest of you. :)

There's a little Friday evening 9-ball tournament I go to fairly often. The field shifts around every week - there's a few regulars, and a few irregulars. Some decent players come in there - I've won it once or twice, but I never go in with any assumptions.

The guy who runs it has always, IMHO, not run it terribly well. Most weeks there's a grumble here and there about it, but it's never been a huge deal.

Last night, however, was too much.

First, the guy shows up about the time we usually get started, i.e. by this time people have already signed up, paid their fees, and the draw is done. It takes him a good while to get things prepped.

Then, once things get started, the real fun begins. They've got an old PC in the joint, and they have a copy of that older pool tournament manager program - I forget the exact name - it's the one with the white background, the one that the guy behind it passed away a year or so ago.

This particular program, like most of its ilk, allows you to enter the number of tables you're running, and will suggest (note - SUGGEST) what matches to play at any given time. The issue here is, our beloved TD considers the computer's suggestions as, well... commands. He regards that match list as sacrosanct and not to be deviated from.

As in a lot of tournaments around the country, I imagine, there's folks who will call in and say "I'm on my way, please put me on the list.". That's fine and dandy - I've done it myself a few times. Last night, this one fellow had called the bar. As it turns out, he's a kid I'd met earlier that week at another tournament. His name's John.

Now, seeing as the TD guy wasn't there to field these calls, someone else was doing it. And apparently there was some miscommunication, and when the TD guy showed up, and told about this, somehow the name "Johnson" ended up on the list instead.

So when the computer put up its match list - "Johnson" was one of the players listed. He hadn't shown up yet (and that's his fault). But the trick is, the TD let one of the three tables *sit empty* for half an hour, at least - because the computer told him to run that match on that table, and one of the players wasn't there. Running a *different* match on that table in the meantime? Impossible!

After while, and after a fair bit of noise from the field, he finally puts up another match on that table. Things start moving along.

Now back to the aforementioned computer program. The logic coded in it to handle what matches to play is *horrific*, I'm learning. Any half-decent TD worth his salt will try and keep all the players playing at as close an interval as he can. This program doesn't accomodate such an idea.

We had, I believe, 17 players last night. On a normal 32-man board, that means everyone but two folks get a bye. And naturally, the first match should be those two folks, to even things up.

So the computer posts these two folks as one of the first matches. No worries! They play their match, they're done. Then it posts the winner of that match to play again, immediately. Our TD follows the computer's wishes and puts him up again - not two minutes has passed since he sank his last 9-ball. More grumblings from the rest of the field, who have yet to play one match.

About this time, John (the kid I mentioned above) rolls in. I say hi, chat him up a little bit - and say "Well you're too late, we've already started." "Oh I called in earlier." Light-bulb time - John = Johnson! The kid's Latino, has a bit of an accent, so I figure, over the phone in a semi-noisy bar, whoever answered the call misheard him and got "Johnson" out of the conversation.

I hop over to the computer, where the TD guy is, and try to tell him that I think John is Johnson, that he's here. This guy doesn't want to hear it - proceeds to tell me about his 20-year career in the technical field, etc. - essentially translated, "I know more about this than you do, so shut the hell up". I give up, go back to where I'm sitting. About a half hour or so later, this guy finally either makes the connection, or someone who he WILL listen to makes it and tells him, and John gets to play his first match. (More on John's fun night later.)

Now, this TD is also one of the players in the tournament. No worries there - if he, like most TD/player combos I've seen, either take a few moments between shots/games to handle the tournament, or has someone else doing it while they're playing.

This guy? Do that? Noooo. While he's shooting his match, the other three tables (there's four tables in the place, the tournament usually runs on three, and finally this guy started assigning matches on the fourth) finish up. They're all waiting for this fellow to come over, record their results, and assign new matches to those tables. This doesn't happen. He keeps playing his match, while everyone else in the place sits.

One poor fellow, his first time playing in this tournament (and he's admittedly a new player in tournaments in general) approaches the TD, during the match while he's not at the table, and inquires why the other tables are empty. The TD proceeds to tear into this guy, mentioning his tech-sector career again, going down the "have *you* ever run a tournament before? Huh?" road, etc. He cannot take suggestions or questions without reacting like they're personal attacks. On top of that, he's been drinking all night and is getting good and lit.

So TD guy lambastes this poor fellow for about five minutes straight - while everyone else is sitting, while his match opponent - in the middle of the match - is standing around. I finally call out the poor fellow's name, get him to come over and sit down, so that the whole conversation will end, TD guy can start shooting again and his match can finish, and he can finally get back to running the tournament.

After his match is done, he goes back to the desk, and starts putzing about with something - I think he thinks he got shorted on the tournament fees. He starts counting the cash he's got. He's also got *every table in the bar* sitting *dead*, and every player in the house sitting on their collective asses.

After about five-ten minutes of him counting money, and talking to people about completely unrelated things, he finally calls out some matches.

Back to John, and back to the horrid computer program. Normally the tournament starts at 8:00 - folks roll in in the hour ahead, sign up, warm up, goof around, get things going at eight. TD guy rolled in just after 8, so we didn't get started 'til about 8:30. John had rolled in about ten till 9.

Now this computer program had put his match up as one of the first ones. Somehow the TD eventually put the kibosh on that, so that match wasn't coming up in the list any longer. But what it did was delay that match until practically the LAST possible match. Many loser side matches were played, and all the winner side matches in that column were played or in progress, before John's match came up on the list and our TD finally called it. This was, if I recall right, around 10pm. By this time some folks were on their third matches.

So John loses his match. Personally, I've played two matches, gotten a third on forfeit (because the fellow I was supposed to play couldn't stick around till all hours of the night for the tournament to finish, and bailed), and played a fourth match (which knocked me out) before John's gotten his second match. It's midnight at this point - nearly four hours and one match play for this guy.

Looking at the screen before I head out, the bottom left side of the bracket - where John currently is - is WAY behind as far as matches played, keeping the columns even, etc. Why? Because the logic in this program is horrid, and the TD won't deviate from its instructions.

A friend of mine, at this point, is in the hotseat. As it's now midnight - about the time the tournament's usually done, and no end in sight - we wander over to a fast food joint so he can get some chow. After he's done, we wander back - it's about 12:30 now - and turns out that bottom-left side of the bracket is so far behind, that my pal is going to have to wait on FOUR matches to be played back-to-back - winner of one plays someone, winner of that one plays someone, etc - before he can play again. The computer/TD combo has caused this monstrous delay.

My pal suggests we retire to the topless bar down the street for a couple of beers. We do. We come back after about 45 min, and my pal wanders in, I head home. It's about 1:30 at this point. Nearly six hours to run a double-elim, race-to-3 9-ball tournament.

I won't be going back to that tournament again.
 
I sympathize with you ....

Yep, BAD TD! Personally any tournament with more than 8 players, the TD should not play unless a 2nd person that is 'QUALIFIED' takes over.
I know the prgram you mentioned, but it must be an earlier version than the one I am used to. There is also one out now for 64 players.

A Pool room here had a good TD, ran things well, fair, knew her way around. I think she had some medical problems, they brought in a young girl, pregnant to boot, to run things. She is about an APA2 skill level. Didn't know the rules, didn't know in and outs of running tournaments, always thinks that she should adjust the handicapping system to spread the wealth to the point that the system is not FAIR to ALL PLAYERS. And then switched over to a national HANDICAPPING system that I hate, and all the regular players that showed up every week for years stopped showing up, so they dion't have the tournament anymore. Plus she has no idea of what players are rated according to the Money rating (which may or may not be the same as tournament ratings). She will have 2 people rated the same, where if they play money, one will give the other the 7.

Another irritation besides not keeping the matches going, is letting some players stand around and talk for 15 minutes when they should be playing.
Usually the player has been drinking, and get involved in some story with others, and holds up his match, and other matches following.
 
Scott, I suggest that you get the boys together and go see the bar owner or manager. Wave your credit card receipts from his establishment under his nose while discussing the utterly essential matter of a new TD.
 
Dhakala said:
Scott, I suggest that you get the boys together and go see the bar owner or manager. Wave your credit card receipts from his establishment under his nose while discussing the utterly essential matter of a new TD.

The whole point in having a tourney at the place is to drum up business. If this so-called TD can't keep your dollars from leaving in between matches, I would definitely take Dhakala's suggestion to action. Let the owners know that your dollars are going to the butt-naked club down the street and see what happens. I've run small tourneys like this myself and they never took that long.
 
A couple of us were chatting about just that last night. Thing is, as far as I can tell (I've only been going to this place/tournament a few months), this particular guy has been running the tournament there for quite some time. I'm loathe to go in and try and shake things up with the bar folks, considering my newness to the place and also the fact that I only go there *for* the tournaments.

As best I can tell, the bar doesn't run the tournament - they just let this guy run it in the bar. I don't know for sure.

I figure, time will solve this issue one way or another. Either this guy will get the message and shape up, or he'll catch enough flak from the players or the bar folks that he moves on or is asked to move on.

If it was a more serious thing than just a regular bar tournament - I'd consider something more drastic.
 
While I can sympathize with you (and John), if you want a better job done, you will have to do it yourself or convince someone else to do it.

I played in one double-elimination tournament in which the TD was even more clueless than your gem. On the one-loss side, he ignored the lines on the chart and just had whoever was available with a loss play a match. The strategy to use was obvious -- play slowly so that when you do go over to the losers's side you might be in the semi-finals.

At the 1980 SF Open 9-ball, they got 88 players and the TD had no idea how to set up a 128-player board. I was there to referee -- there was a ref at each table -- but I got drafted as the working TD since I understood powers of 2.

It's hard to find good help. If you do want to run or help run a tournament yourself, I have some suggestions on how to make things run more smoothly.
 
I know how to run a board, to keep the columns even, to run matches so that one guy doesn't play twice while another guy sits and doesn't play once, etc.

And *that's* what kills me - to watch this other fellow bollox it up so horribly, knowing that if he'd just be the least bit open-minded and listen to some suggestions, things could run sooo much more smoothly. I'd have zero substantive issues with this guy if he had more of a clue on how to run a tournament.

Maybe it's ego, maybe it's just simply the fact that I could run a better board than he, I dunno. Maybe it's both. :/
 
I had my fill of 'those' types of TD's in the 80s and early 90s.

I got so dissapointed/frustrated/mad with those un-qualified TD's I decided to hold my own tournaments.

That was about 15 years ago. Still haven't regretted a minute of it.

BTW, Bob Jewett has helped me a lot, with rules and TD directions for many years and I have the utmost respect for him and his vast knowledge.
 
Well, since you sing Bob's praises so highly, and he offered...

Bob, care to chime in with "How to run a good pool tournament 101"? :D

I'd be interested to see what you've got to say. I imagine some other folks would be as well.
 
Idiots. The world is full of idiots.

Why bother with a computer with only 17 players?

It really does not matter which players you play, just so you keep the players playing, the chart will determine when people can play.

Normal TD's (which obviously your's isn't) start at the top and work their way down until everyone plays once. Then start playing the losers as their matches come up.

Pretty soon tables will be open while people are waiting for a match to end.

Sometimes we jump ahead to play someone we know are slow players and make sure they get on the table that opens up.

There really is nothing complicated about the chart and we have at least a half dozen players who will help the "designated" TD of the night. And the TD always plays no matter how many show up. When he plays, someone else fills in the chart for him.

How much was the entry fee? How much was the pay out?

I did play at one place that would shut down some of the coin op tables and slow down the play. But he did that so that players would stay in the bar longer and drink more and spend more which is the only reason he had a tournament in the first place. But he always added money.

Jake
 
ScottW said:
Well, since you sing Bob's praises so highly, and he offered...

Bob, care to chime in with "How to run a good pool tournament 101"? :D

I'd be interested to see what you've got to say. I imagine some other folks would be as well.

I'd like to hear them too.
 
ScottW said:
... Bob, care to chime in with "How to run a good pool tournament 101"? :D...
Data! I must have data!

You have about 16 players and 4 tables. I think double elimination is a bad idea for that. How much is the entry fee? Any added money? Is there any chance the players would accept a handicapped format? But without data, I can say:

I think jjinfla covered a lot of good points. and I think a good TD has to:

Know the rules and have a printed version of the rules ready for reference.

Know how to make his own charts for single and double elimination and round robin. He should be able to run any of these without a computer for at least 64 players.

Know how to do seeded draws (uniform bye distribution on elimination charts).

Know (as mentioned multiple times in this thread) which match to start first, including taking into consideration which players are slow.

Keep all the tables busy.

Calculate and post the payouts prior to the start of play (assuming a standard elimination tournament).

Know enough about refereeing to make good decisions.

Be willing to sit out if necessary for the chart. (It sounds like this is what should have happened on the night you describe -- 17 is much worse than 16 in a DE tournament).

For some related discussions, see:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2001-11.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2001-12.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2002-01.pdf
and
http://www.sfbilliards.com/perfect_tournament.txt
 
In this case, the tournament is a 9-ball, double-elim, race-to-3 format. $10 entry, 100% payout to the top three places. Usually there's about sixteen players, more or less.

I've never considered double-elim to be a problem in this tournament - things *usually* run along fairly smoothly, except for, of course, the TD's aforementioned habit of just doing what the computer tells him to do, which means all too often, he's putting up what the rest of us would consider a "wrong" match at the time.

Usually things get started around 8pm and end up around midnight. No one in the past, as far as I can tell, has had an issue with this. This past week, the horrid week, it didn't finish til' 2am.
 
I recently stopped going to a certain pool hall i was at almost 5 or 6 days aweek because they hired a girl who needless to say was fukkin lazy!

And I wouldnt say the same crap as what Scott mention'd happend, but it generally ran 15-20mins late because people would call up at 630 and say I'm on the way, when the tourny started at 7pm but wouldnt show up till 730 or LATER!!!!!

The last time I played in one of thier tournaments was over a month ago, and ended up wanting my money back on a thursday tournament because it was suppose to start at 7pm, but we was waiting for people to show up STILL at 8pm, and it didnt get started till 830pm!

I mean its like WTF if you dont put your foot down or lay down the law, people will run all over you and abuse the rules. 5mins turns into 10, and 10 turns into 20 and so on.

Plus the fact that this girl wouldnt clean any of the balls that had gone a week or two without being cleaned lol.

I've resorted to going to out of town tourneys that give better competition and are run alot better lol!!!!
 
Blunt Instrumen said:
Complete nonsense. Unless you call "business" trying to get broke people to buy a soda.

Soda, beer, liquor, jukebox music, table quarters, food. Yeah, pretty much anything that gets these 16 people and their friends to spend money, I would assume is the object of the owners' game. Why else would he host a tournament at his business? I think it makes perfect sense to host tourneys to drum up business. Why do you think otherwise?
 
ScottW said:
In this case, the tournament is a 9-ball, double-elim, race-to-3 format. $10 entry, 100% payout to the top three places. Usually there's about sixteen players, more or less.

I've never considered double-elim to be a problem in this tournament - things *usually* run along fairly smoothly, except for, of course, the TD's aforementioned habit of just doing what the computer tells him to do, which means all too often, he's putting up what the rest of us would consider a "wrong" match at the time.

Usually things get started around 8pm and end up around midnight. No one in the past, as far as I can tell, has had an issue with this. This past week, the horrid week, it didn't finish til' 2am.
I used to run a double elim race to 6 (handicapped) tourney in Denver that would start at 7:30 and be over by then (2 a.m.) with sometimes 40-50
players + calcutta...on 5 tables. The numbers by themselves should be okay.

Cheers,
RC
 
StormHotRod300 said:
I recently stopped going to a certain pool hall i was at almost 5 or 6 days aweek because they hired a girl who needless to say was fukkin lazy!

And I wouldnt say the same crap as what Scott mention'd happend, but it generally ran 15-20mins late because people would call up at 630 and say I'm on the way, when the tourny started at 7pm but wouldnt show up till 730 or LATER!!!!!

The last time I played in one of thier tournaments was over a month ago, and ended up wanting my money back on a thursday tournament because it was suppose to start at 7pm, but we was waiting for people to show up STILL at 8pm, and it didnt get started till 830pm!

I mean its like WTF if you dont put your foot down or lay down the law, people will run all over you and abuse the rules. 5mins turns into 10, and 10 turns into 20 and so on.

Plus the fact that this girl wouldnt clean any of the balls that had gone a week or two without being cleaned lol.

I've resorted to going to out of town tourneys that give better competition and are run alot better lol!!!!
For my 7:00 tournament, the entry fee is $10, but it goes up to $12 after the draw (assuming there's room), which is done exactly at 7:00. Seems to work pretty well, usually only 1-2 late players. Also, free table time before the tournament helps get people there on time.

Cory
 
ScottW said:
... I've never considered double-elim to be a problem in this tournament - things *usually* run along fairly smoothly...
I really, really don't like double elimination tournaments. I'd propose going to single elimination and add a second-chance tournament with a second entry fee that starts when the main tournament is down to four players. Among other things, late players could go into the second-chance tournament and not hold up the main tournament which maybe could start a little earlier. Because the second tournament can overlap with the final rounds of the main tournament, the whole thing can end earlier than a double elimination.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I really, really don't like double elimination tournaments. I'd propose going to single elimination and add a second-chance tournament with a second entry fee that starts when the main tournament is down to four players.

IMHO that might work better with more serious players - the crowd at this particular tournament aren't THAT serious, as best I can tell. This is more of a semi-bar crowd, with quite a few regulars, with some better players mixed in for flavor.

If it was a larger tournament, in a real pool hall with more tables, then yeah - I think your ideas would work great. But this crowd isn't the sort to want to pay their $10, get knocked out, and then pay another $5 (or whatever) and then get knocked out again. They're happy paying their $10 and getting their minimum two matches.

In the end, though, I'm not running the tournament in this particular bar - the other guy is - and I'm not going to try and stage a bloody coup or anything.

This is one of the reasons I'd love to own my own pool hall - so I *could* run tournaments like this :D
 
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