The WPBA Carolina Classic Thread

Money

SJM's post seems the more realistic as far as players go.VAP probably has it pretty close as far as fan expenses.Also remember most of the girls have sponsors.O'course I dunno what exactly that means when it comes to paying expenses? JAM, maybe that would make a good study....How much actual support does a touring pro recieve from sponsorship.

Terry
 
I've been at the tournament all week, and those of you who could've come but didn't missed some excellent pool. I've never attended a WPBA event, but I've been to many of the men's events and played in a few. I've come to the conclusion that the men really need to take notes as far as how a tournament should be run. The WPBA has definitely got a good formula. The only thing I would change would be the bleacher seating. Talk about a pain in the ass! Sit in one spot for 10 hours and you'll get callouses on your ass....

The usual suspects are in the TV matches - Fisher, Corr, Thornfeldt, and Webb (no Lee, she made some dubious shot selections in her match with Tiffany). Tiffany Nelson played a great tournament (man, she has a GREAT stroke and a GREAT break); Ga Young Kim, I found, is a threat to be out from ANYWHERE (she's all about offense); Kelly Fisher gets out when she's supposed to, plays great D when she's supposed to. I was really impressed by the overall quality of play.

Never having been to a ladies' tournament, somehow I had the mindset that play wouldn't be as high-quality as say the US Open or DCC or Music City. (I know, that's chauvinistic, but I'm being honest here....) I was very pleasantly surprised - these women can friggin' play. I did notice, though, that a lot of them don't kick very well. Kicks that I thought were relatively easy were being missed by FEET, not inches, by a lot of the lower-ranked players. The cream rises to the top, though - I saw Allison, Karen, Tiffany, Monica, Kim, and Helena ALL kick balls and not only did they make good hits, they pocketed the balls. I also had the misconception that breaks were going to be relatively weak, but I was proven wrong again. Nelson, Thornefeldt, and Kim can simply CRUSH a rack. Granted, not all of the women have sledgehammer breaks, but neither do all of the men - Reyes seems to do pretty well without one.

Oh yeah, and TV doesn't do the ladies justice - they look much better in person than they do on TV (not that I was paying attention to that, my wife told me :D ).

-djb
 
Tbeaux said:
SJM's post seems the more realistic as far as players go.VAP probably has it pretty close as far as fan expenses.Also remember most of the girls have sponsors.O'course I dunno what exactly that means when it comes to paying expenses? JAM, maybe that would make a good study....How much actual support does a touring pro recieve from sponsorship.

Terry
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i never said anything about a fan's expenses
 
Tbeaux said:
SJM's post seems the more realistic as far as players go.VAP probably has it pretty close as far as fan expenses.Also remember most of the girls have sponsors.O'course I dunno what exactly that means when it comes to paying expenses? JAM, maybe that would make a good study....How much actual support does a touring pro recieve from sponsorship.

Terry
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sponsorship can range from an actual salary plus expenses to just a few hundred bucks for the entry fee.

thanks

VAP
 
DoomCue said:
I've been at the tournament all week, and those of you who could've come but didn't missed some excellent pool. I've never attended a WPBA event, but I've been to many of the men's events and played in a few. I've come to the conclusion that the men really need to take notes as far as how a tournament should be run. The WPBA has definitely got a good formula. The only thing I would change would be the bleacher seating. Talk about a pain in the ass! Sit in one spot for 10 hours and you'll get callouses on your ass....

The usual suspects are in the TV matches - Fisher, Corr, Thornfeldt, and Webb (no Lee, she made some dubious shot selections in her match with Tiffany). Tiffany Nelson played a great tournament (man, she has a GREAT stroke and a GREAT break); Ga Young Kim, I found, is a threat to be out from ANYWHERE (she's all about offense); Kelly Fisher gets out when she's supposed to, plays great D when she's supposed to. I was really impressed by the overall quality of play.

Never having been to a ladies' tournament, somehow I had the mindset that play wouldn't be as high-quality as say the US Open or DCC or Music City. (I know, that's chauvinistic, but I'm being honest here....) I was very pleasantly surprised - these women can friggin' play. I did notice, though, that a lot of them don't kick very well. Kicks that I thought were relatively easy were being missed by FEET, not inches, by a lot of the lower-ranked players. The cream rises to the top, though - I saw Allison, Karen, Tiffany, Monica, Kim, and Helena ALL kick balls and not only did they make good hits, they pocketed the balls. I also had the misconception that breaks were going to be relatively weak, but I was proven wrong again. Nelson, Thornefeldt, and Kim can simply CRUSH a rack. Granted, not all of the women have sledgehammer breaks, but neither do all of the men - Reyes seems to do pretty well without one.

Oh yeah, and TV doesn't do the ladies justice - they look much better in person than they do on TV (not that I was paying attention to that, my wife told me :D ).

-djb
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Thanks for sharing, Doomcue, and I'm glad you've enjoyed your first WPBA event.

You're right, some of those ladies play real strong. Their appearance, as you note, is also a big positive. The ladies present themselves gracefully, and conduct themselves far more admirably than the men of pro pool. The ladies of the WPBA are a credit to their sport.

Where men's pool has an edge is in the depth of its fields. Once you get past the top 25 or so by ranking on the WPBA tour, the level of play drops quite a bit, and players incapable of scoring upsets over Top 16 seeded players are few and far between. It is this lack of depth that, in part, explains why those at the top have had little trouble defending their turf over the years.

When I go to a UPA event, I feel about half the field is capable of scoring an upset over an Archer or a Reyes. When I go to a WPBA event, however, I sense that only about one sixth of the field is capable of beating Allison Fisher or Karen Corr. The talent pool is very deep in men's pro pool, not so deep in women's pro pool.

Having said that, however, the play of the women is getting stronger and stronger, and the future may bring us WPBA events having far deeper talent pools than those of today.

After all is said and done, Doomcue, the reason I attend so many WPBA events is that women's pro pool is an outstanding product. I'm glad to learn that you got to see it up close.
 
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i was wondering sjm, was there ever a time when the men and women played together???

i know the wpba probably wouldn't allow it, as it would possibly take away from their organization, but i think that a integrated pro billiards tour would be great.

one could argue that the mean are far better than the women, but i think after a while of playing in the same tour the playing field would be fairly level.

wouldn't it be great to see an allison vs efren match from time to time?

what is your opinion of this? and why hasn't it been tried?

thanks

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
i was wondering sjm, was there ever a time when the men and women played together???

i know the wpba probably wouldn't allow it, as it would possibly take away from their organization, but i think that a integrated pro billiards tour would be great.

one could argue that the mean are far better than the women, but i think after a while of playing in the same tour the playing field would be fairly level.

wouldn't it be great to see an allison vs efren match from time to time?

what is your opinion of this? and why hasn't it been tried?

thanks

VAP
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If you mean have the fields been integrated, the answer, as far as I know it, is no. A few women have played in more than a few men's events over the years, but that's not what you seem to be asking. I do not recall an event consisting of all the touring pros of both the men's and women's tours competing in the same field.

What has been done on more than a few occasions in pool history is the men and women getting together to produce events having a men's and women's division and sharing a venue. The only truly noteworthy example of this today is the BCA Open in May in Las Vegas, and if you've never attended it, it's a must see.

With due respect to the women, I do not believe that playing with the men on a consitent basis would be nearly enough to level the playing field. I do concur, though, that the play of the women would be elevated by the experience.

And, yes, Allison Fisher vs Efren Reyes would be fun to watch, andf i'd buy a ticket in a split second, but I think three on the wire going to eleven would make it far more interesting.
 
VAP,

Sorry,didn't mean to imply you were talkiing about fans,just that the expenses you mentioned are probably closer to the expenses incured by a fan than a player. Most of the WPBA events occur at casinos and while I don't know for sure it would seem to me the players "might" be able to take advantage of some casino perks (all you can eat food bars for ex.).You're absolutly right though that it's gotta be tough touring and making any real money. I know Melissa Herndon is working a regular job and she finished up last season #10.

Oh, I believe Karen Corr played in a tourney with men (not sure but think she came in 3rd).

Terry
 
sjm said:
If you mean have the fields been integrated, the answer, as far as I know it, is no. A few women have played in more than a few men's events over the years, but that's not what you seem to be asking. I do not recall an event consisting of all the touring pros of both the men's and women's tours competing in the same field.

What has been done on more than a few occasions in pool history is the men and women getting together to produce events having a men's and women's division and sharing a venue. The only truly noteworthy example of this today is the BCA Open in May in Las Vegas, and if you've never attended it, it's a must see.

With due respect to the women, I do not believe that playing with the men on a consitent basis would be nearly enough to level the playing field. I do concur, though, that the play of the women would be elevated by the experience.

And, yes, Allison Fisher vs Efren Reyes would be fun to watch, andf i'd buy a ticket in a split second, but I think three on the wire going to eleven would make it far more interesting.
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even if it wasn't an entire tour, i think it would be interesting to say the least if there was one event a year, that all pro players men and women were invited to.

thanks
 
Tbeaux said:
VAP,

Sorry,didn't mean to imply you were talkiing about fans,just that the expenses you mentioned are probably closer to the expenses incured by a fan than a player. Most of the WPBA events occur at casinos and while I don't know for sure it would seem to me the players "might" be able to take advantage of some casino perks (all you can eat food bars for ex.).You're absolutly right though that it's gotta be tough touring and making any real money. I know Melissa Herndon is working a regular job and she finished up last season #10.

Oh, I believe Karen Corr played in a tourney with men (not sure but think she came in 3rd).

Terry
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Third?? Ha!! She beat Jim Rempe TWICE to win that event!

Barbara
 
Barbara said:
Third?? Ha!! She beat Jim Rempe TWICE to win that event!

Barbara
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Barbara,

Wasn't sure about the finish.Wasn't that a year or two back?
So Karen took her "sheleighlie" to Rempe? LOL
I think VAP is right...one or two mixed events ought to draw a little attention and I know the ladies would love a shot at the men. ;)

Terry
 
Terry,

Yes it was a couple years ago, IIRC.

And a long, long time ago there was a tournament format that put the best male player up against the best female player for $40,000 winner-take-all. So the women played their tourny and the men played theirs and in the end it was CJ Wiley against Vivian Villareal, I believe. It was no contest, CJ steamrolled her.

Nowadays I think it would be a better match between the sexes considering the talent of the top women, but the women play differently than the men do so I really don't think it would draw much interest.

Barbara
 
LOL, Landshark77... I had no idea it would turn into all this. LMAO.

I wish I had been able to reply sooner, been sick, so I haven't been online. See what I miss!! Darnget.

After all this, a rollerblading party is in definate order. haha. We already know the invite list...LOL... better get out the safety gear!

oooh..i wanna helmet with bright pink flames on it... j/k.
*insert huge yahoo smilie here*
Dea
 
I've been fortunate to see Karen Corr play on many occasions on the Joss Tour. Living in Philadelphia area, when she's not playing on the ladies tour, she enjoys competing with the other top guns on the Joss Tour. She did double-dip Rempe to beat him at one tournament in Connecticut. Several months later, Jim Rempe paid her back in Syracuse and double-dipped Karen for the win.

I don't know what it is about the stigma that some male players have of getting beat by a lady, but I've gotta tell you, every single time the men face Karen Corr on a field of green, they do not take her lightly one bit.

At a Joss tournament held at Snooker's in Providence, Rhode Island last year (I think), Karen and Julie Kelly had just gotten back from the BCA Open, where Karen won the event and Julie came in third. Up at the bar area, Karen was sitting quietly, chowing down on a sandwich, when Frankie Hernandez comes up to her and says, "So, Karen, how come you like to play with the guys so much on the Joss Tour?," to which she responded, "I like the competition, and playing with the guys, it keeps my skills sharp."

Several months ago at another Joss tournament held at Drexeline Billiards in Drexel Hills, Pennsylvania, Karen came in fourth place. On her way to the top, she beat quite a few heavy hitters, to include Jose Parica and Pookie.

Karen Corr is always a hit at any event she goes to, not only because of her topnotch play, but she's actually a very nice person and most definitely an asset to this sport!

JAM
 
Two things....and sorry I am jumping in late, LOL.

1.) SJM- yes, the WPBA schedule is known in advance and yes, the eariler one buys plane tickets the cheaper they are. However, not everyone has the luxuray of having a bank roll large enough to buy a years worth of tickets in advance. Alot of the players on tour live tourney to tourney. A low end finish nets you $50 after fees, but before room and board. even if round trip tickets to ALL events were a mere $100, you are still needing $800 to get these tickets. I dunno about you, but $800 is ALOT to me and most of the general population, including many of the ladies on tour. Oh, and it is a known fact that eating out cost more than eating at home.

2.) Terry- Look at the sponsorship of the ladies, there are MANY who have none, period. Those that do mainly have a cue sponsor. Depending on the deal they have worked out with their cue sponsor, they basically get a free cue. Unless you take it to the pawn shop, this doesn't help expense wise at all. And remember taking your cue to the pawn show will result in no cue...last I saw at the tourneys, bar cues were just not provided, LOL! I for one think that individual sponsorship/ endorsements is the way to go, I think it is out there and available...we just need to find a way and have the ambition to tap into it. I can be done.

JMO
 
I'd like to commend the WPBA for their excellent and informative website. Everything one needs to know is right there in black and white. I am quite impressed that the ranking system is explained in full detail, to include the ranking points received by every single player.

I've spoken to several lady pros about the WPBA, their likes and dislikes. In my honest and most humble opinion, the lady pros are quite fortunate to belong to an organization where everything is out in the open, available for full disclosure.

Nothing is perfect in this pool world, that's for sure. There's always going to be gripes one thing or another. I do understand the reasoning behind seeding players, but I've always thought it kind of unfair for the unseeded players because the seeded ones get a head start in the race to the winner's circle in most instances I've seen. And I know why they have those short races to 7 for TV purposes, but it seems to take away from the real competition of the event (IMO).

I do hope the WPBA reconsiders the bleacher seating, as it seems to be a bummer for the paying spectators. I remember paying 100 bucks one time to go to Cirque du Soleil in Virginia and sat on a bleacher seat for the entire show. My lower back and rump was sore as hell, and I was squirming the whole time. Not a very comfortable railbird experience, especially paying that kind of dough.

When it comes to the WPBA, I commend the organization for establishing a level playing field, with opportunities to compete in high-profile and lucrative tournaments open to all members, thanks to an equitable and fair ranking system. Women do seem to make better leaders, administratively speaking. :p

JAM
 
landshark77 said:
However, not everyone has the luxury of having a bank roll large enough to buy a year's worth of tickets in advance. A lot of the players on tour live tourney to tourney...
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It's the same recurring theme, and when it comes to pool, history does repeat itself. Very talented players who cannot afford to attend EVERY event, because of financial obligations, sometimes quit the sport. The organizations need to GROW their product, but to date, the product, namely the pros, are continuing to diminish.

landshark77 said:
Look at the sponsorship of the ladies, there are MANY who have none, period. Those that do mainly have a cue sponsor. Depending on the deal they have worked out with their cue sponsor, they basically get a free cue...I, for one, think that individual sponsorship/endorsements is the way to go. I think it is out there and available...JMO
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The sponsorship opportunities for pool come from pool-related sponsors. There are just so many out there who can afford to provide monthly financial assistance to a pro.

Some cue-makers do provide equipment to players in hopes that the player will advertise their product. However, it is known in some circles that some of these pros, because of being broke, have sold their free cues, many times without the sponsor's knowledge or consent. This practice has made MANY previous sponsors leery of investing in a pool player, and I don't blame them.

Timmy Scruggs of Baltimore used to sponsor a tour in this area. At the end of the season, he'd give the points winner a custom-made cue. The last year of this tour, the points winner, instead of calling Timmy Scruggs and giving him the specs for a brand-new tailor-made stick, sold this "gift" on the last day of the tournament. Timmy Scruggs got a phone call from the person who bought it, and he NEVER got a thank you. It's no wonder that was the last year of the Scruggs Tour.

Things are changing for the better, though. I see a lot of bright upcoming talent on the horizon, decent players with good work integrity and ethics. If a talented player is given just an opportunity to keep up with the pack, he may excel. Danny "Kid Delicious" Basavich is an excellent example of what a sponsored player can do, if only given the chance, and look at him go today!

Best buy for a sponsor: B.J. Ussery of North Carolina (IMO)! If you've caught his act lately, you'd understand why. He's knocking 'em down, left and right, on the tournament trail.

JAM
 
Barbara said:
Terry,

it was CJ Wiley against Vivian Villareal, I believe. It was no contest, CJ steamrolled her.



Barbara
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Howdy,
If I recall,the score was 7-3. or 7-1.Cheers
Vagabond
 
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