"Think three balls ahead" is horrible advice.

[ShootingArts]

flow of motion

Not really a big deal to see entire innings at the table including complete run outs when you practice doing it constantly. Far easier than playing even three moves ahead playing chess for most of the game. Always thought that Efren's love of chess was one of his less obvious advantages on a pool table. He probably sees a pattern plus three or four alternate patterns at little more than a glance.

Although I can stop and regroup if something goes wrong I prefer each inning at the table to be one continuous flow of motion. That isn't possible if I have to shift from shooting mode to thinking mode after every shot to add another ball to my pattern.

Another way to put it is that it is impossible to stay in the moment between shots adding to your pattern after every shot. It is possible to stay in the moment for the entire inning if you planned all of your shots before you took the first one. Once you break shooting mode to think, it makes it easier for the stray thought to sneak in while down on a shot.

Hu

 

[FranCrimi]

Actually, the lesser a player you are the more you need to think about the entire table. Everyone needs the right angle an prefers shorter shots.

Why would that be?

 

[bdorman]

Max Eberle has a series of videos where he walks you through the entire runout strategy before taking the first shot

Here's one of them in 9-ball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb9aHQqMqkI

 

[Zphix]

On the whole notion of playing chess - I think chess might be an advantage to pattern play.

I'm an avid player with a 1550 ELO rating and have played since I was like 4. Maybe it's more of a subconscious thing to see different patterns because I've been playing for so long.

I wonder how I'd fare against Efren in chess!

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[CJ Wiley]

Two shots ahead of the first one

Two shots ahead of the first one. This is usually all that's required if you're trying to run out every time.

CJ, I can't believe that you think it's ok to think two balls ahead --- the shot you're shooting and the next shot. Surely, you don't mean that.

 

[voiceofreason]

Very interesting view points from the professionals and to be honest, I can't quite believe the amateurs actually disagreeing with them!

 

[Pidge]

If the rack is open and you are at a professional standard there normally isn't much reason to think too far ahead. As long as you have some kind of an angle on the ball you are shooting you can get to pretty much anywhere on the table to leave yourself an angle on the next. It becomes tricky to play this way in games like 8 ball, when the table is cluttered but its still possible to run out this way. The pros have world class shot making ability, so if like me you don't have that then you need to think further ahead to give yourself a fighting chance of getting out.

 

[chefjeff]

Not really a big deal to see entire innings at the table including complete run outs when you practice doing it constantly. Far easier than playing even three moves ahead playing chess for most of the game. Always thought that Efren's love of chess was one of his less obvious advantages on a pool table. He probably sees a pattern plus three or four alternate patterns at little more than a glance.

Although I can stop and regroup if something goes wrong I prefer each inning at the table to be one continuous flow of motion. That isn't possible if I have to shift from shooting mode to thinking mode after every shot to add another ball to my pattern.

Another way to put it is that it is impossible to stay in the moment between shots adding to your pattern after every shot. It is possible to stay in the moment for the entire inning if you planned all of your shots before you took the first one. Once you break shooting mode to think, it makes it easier for the stray thought to sneak in while down on a shot.

Hu

It's not impossible if you practice it and make it a (vital) part of every shot. Sometime, somewhere, a guy's gotta think, doesn't he? What if your plan changes due to improper execution? Just keep going thoughtlessly?

What am I missing?

Jeff Livingston

 

[FranCrimi]

Two shots ahead of the first one. This is usually all that's required if you're trying to run out every time.

Well, doesn't that add up to 3 ---- the one you're shooting and the two after?

 

[FranCrimi]

Not really a big deal to see entire innings at the table including complete run outs when you practice doing it constantly. Far easier than playing even three moves ahead playing chess for most of the game. Always thought that Efren's love of chess was one of his less obvious advantages on a pool table. He probably sees a pattern plus three or four alternate patterns at little more than a glance.

Although I can stop and regroup if something goes wrong I prefer each inning at the table to be one continuous flow of motion. That isn't possible if I have to shift from shooting mode to thinking mode after every shot to add another ball to my pattern.

Another way to put it is that it is impossible to stay in the moment between shots adding to your pattern after every shot. It is possible to stay in the moment for the entire inning if you planned all of your shots before you took the first one. Once you break shooting mode to think, it makes it easier for the stray thought to sneak in while down on a shot.

Hu

I agree with your basic premise and most definitely a high level player will have surveyed the entire layout and will have a basic plan, for example: how to break up a cluster that might take planning several shots ahead.

Anyone who really studies a top player moving around the table can see when they stop to reevaluate. Here are some reasons for reevaluating:

1. They get out of line.

2. They made a decision earlier to stop and reevaluate at a particular point.

3. They see something that the didn't see earlier.

4. Something changed that wasn't planned, like running into a ball.

If they're moving around the table smoothly and run the rack, then they've pretty much planned the rack out from before the first shot and are accomplishing their goal as they shoot.

 

[Lesh]

Grady Mathews used to match up with top 9 Ball players and make them call the next pocket (that was Grady's handicap)....it would surprise you how difficult this really is. When I'm playing my best no one on earth can beat me like that......especially if we play the "real rules" of 9 Ball (Two Shot). 'The Game is the Teacher'

THIS is solid CHURCH. Thankyou CJ.

Everyone has a perfect plan right up to the point where you start getting shot at.

Adapt and overcome soldier..... Move out and draw fire, Huah.

Regards,

Lesh

 

[ShootingArts]

Fran, Jeff

I agree with your basic premise and most definitely a high level player will have surveyed the entire layout and will have a basic plan, for example: how to break up a cluster that might take planning several shots ahead.

Anyone who really studies a top player moving around the table can see when they stop to reevaluate. Here are some reasons for reevaluating:

1. They get out of line.

2. They made a decision earlier to stop and reevaluate at a particular point.

3. They see something that the didn't see earlier.

4. Something changed that wasn't planned, like running into a ball.

If they're moving around the table smoothly and run the rack, then they've pretty much planned the rack out from before the first shot and are accomplishing their goal as they shoot.

Fran,

I think we are pretty much in agreement. Trying to make a general statement be always true is what leads to confusion. Thinking three balls ahead, what happens if I need to be on the other side of the fourth or fifth ball to use the cue ball to break out a cluster for a ball or two later? I have to change the side I shoot the third ball from which means I have to shoot the second ball differently, which might mean I have to shoot the first ball differently.

It is a back and forth thing that seems confusing at first but that becomes automatic with practice. Where do I have to have the cue ball to shoot the most difficult shot or most difficult part of the pattern? Working backwards from there, reveals position for the shots before it. When I first started trying to sort patterns I might stand there several minutes trying to figure out things forwards, backwards, and sideways! After doing it awhile it is more like driving, most of the thought process is below the surface and I'd say I see the pattern first to last. At some level that can't be true, that is just my perception.

Likewise, as I mentioned and you say in different words, planning everything before the first shot doesn't mean that I can't stop and regroup if the plan breaks down for any reason. Obviously if I miss a ball I'm in an all new world if I get back to the table. Likewise, missing shape may mean one shot to get back in line or a whole new pattern might have to be created.


Jeff,

What you missed: "I can stop and regroup if something goes wrong" Regroup is another way of saying think and decide on a new pattern. Everyone has to think sometime, I prefer to do my thinking before I'm in the middle of a problem as much as possible.


I can't multiquote easily with the skin I'm using so I'm not sure who commented on amateurs disagreeing with professionals. I have always been an amateur in one respect, I decided in 1973 trying to be a professional pool player was needlessly risky for anyone. On the other hand when I look up "professional" I see one definition being someone that makes a living at an occupation. There were several periods of my life when I paid the bills and put food on the table playing pool, including paying the mortgages on my home and commercial property. In that respect I was as much a professional as anyone.

It doesn't really matter if a person is called an amateur or professional, after running hundreds or thousands of racks they have a pretty good idea how to go about it!

Hu

 

[SmoothStroke]

My experiences and words of wisdom given to me, and observation.

Steve Mizerak....plan the entire rack, when you screw up, plan it again. Play as far ahead as you need to, all games, especially straight pool
Practice your strokes, put the shot drill in the garbage, lock that bridge,
Relax and stay down. Play cribbage for your pattern play, exercise your brain, pocketing balls is the easy part.

Pete Margo.... There is no future in this game, listen to Steve he is a school teacher.
Have a complete plan before you begin the rack, things change, change with them. Hit them nice and smooth, it's not baseball. Stay down

Jack Colavita, Shorten up your bridge and delivery,you will be more accurate, no reason to pull back 11 inches for 5 inch cue ball roll, tables today are fast, you can hit 20 rails with min speed.
Stay down, send the cue ball with your eye, not your head,,,you look like a bobblehead when you do that. Plan the rack out, when you screw up choose your options quick and execute, don't stare at it like you are lost in the woods. Play cribbage for your pattern play.

Mike Sigel...Jumps up like a Jack in the box on every shot (Observation)
Earl Strickland ... Has a poor stance ( Observation )
Imagine, 2 of the greatest players have poor habits.

Waiting on the day when people realize how easy the game is to undersatnd.
Everything I see and hear, the discecting of every part of this and that is out of control, it's overkill in the highest degree.

You have instructors filming your elbow on a 6 inch straight shot and telling you its off by 2 centimeters. The students and readers are so wacked out in their head from this type of discetion it takes them 20 years before they can make 2 in a row.

Read a little of this and a little of that.
Get on the table and practice until your fingers bleed.
Use your brain.
You can't beat repetition.
Like anything else, hours and hours of time invested, there are no short cuts. It does not matter what it is, any sport, furniture making, etc.

I am sure that some of the overkill advisors may chime in and say, you have to practice the right things, your elbow this, your foot is wrong, your dominant eye, the grip, bridge, Please,this is not about that, so try and refrain from adding that in. Every other post on this forum has that info

 

[akaTrigger]

Three ball shape, thinking three balls ahead, three ball pattern....whatever you call it, it's about thinking about how to get the correct angle on the next 2 balls. Then you do it again on your next ball.

It does not mean you haven't noticed trouble balls or clusters down the run, though.

 

[fastone371]

Most of the time you can just play 2 shots ahead and play even better. The chances of anyone actually playing 3 shots ahead in the pocket they anticipate is unlikely.
'

Thank you CJ, yet more good news and a real confidence builder from you. You could probably put 6 hangers on the table and I wouldnt be able to drop them in the pockets they are hanging in.:rotflmao:

 

[jmhanson_21]

Many are missing the point

Tor Lowry talks about this same thing on one of his youtube videos, and he explains why you need to think in at least 4 ball patterns or plan out your run first, and then focus on your 3 ball patterns.

It's because - if the 3 ball to the 4 ball is really tricky, and can only be accomplished from the short side of the 3 and you are thinking in 3 ball patterns, you will naturally be playing to get on the long side of the 3, for the easiest shot.

In other words, you will shoot the 1 so that you can get shape on the 2 to get on the 3 on the long side (which will make it impossible to get on the 4). If you get lucky and the shape you have on the 2 can get you to both sides of the 3, then you're fine, but if there's traffic or it's un-natural, your run-out is over.

However, if you've already looked ahead to the four, you will play the 1 to get shape on the 2 in a spot that can get you to the short-side of the 3, for shape on the 4. That's where it comes into play and most players figure it out after they get stuck a few times.

Most of the comments on this thread have been about problem balls or balls that are stuck together and need to be broken-up, however that's fairly obvious, even someone married to thinking 3 balls ahead is going to see that the 7 and 8 are tied up.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Thinking into the future is not prudent in pool or in life.

The human mind has a habit of wanting everything to be difficult, complicated, or at least challenging. I have some good news for anyone that's struggling with their game and can't seen to "overcome the challenge".

My suggestion is simply be "willing" to change your old thoughts, ideas and even emotions about pool and what you "think" it is.....be willing to experiment and listen to those that have done it already.....just like being on a hike in a foreign, dangerous land, be willing to be guided and directed by those that's been on the path (or safari) before.....beware of "play actors".....also known as hypocrites. ***

It's easy, it really is.....sure you can "plan the entire rack out," and the truth is it will rarely go "as planned," so why torture yourself......concentrate 100% on the shot NOW, (and prepare for the two following), and allow the ones following to take their place in the correct order.

Thinking far into the future is not prudent in pool or in life.....this takes many people a life time to "real eyes"... just think of all the wasted energy they could have utilized.

Once we learn the most effective way to play the GAME will open up and we will smile at those that say "there must be a harder way"......'The Game is the Teacher'

***The word hypocrisy comes from the Greek ὑπόκρισις (hypokrisis), which means "jealous", "play-acting", "acting out", "coward" or "dissembling".[4] The word hypocrite is from the Greek word ὑποκρίτης (hypokritēs), the agentive noun associated with υποκρίνομαι (hypokrinomai κρίση, "judgment" »κριτική (kritiki), "critics") presumably because the performance of a dramatic text by an actor was to involve a degree of interpretation, or assessment.

Alternatively, the word is an amalgam of the Greek prefix hypo-, meaning "under", and the verb krinein, meaning "to sift or decide". Thus the original meaning implied a deficiency in the ability to sift or decide. This deficiency, as it pertains to one's own beliefs and feelings, informs the word's contemporary meaning.[5]

THIS is solid CHURCH. Thankyou CJ.

Everyone has a perfect plan right up to the point where you start getting shot at.

Adapt and overcome soldier..... Move out and draw fire, Huah.

Regards,

Lesh

 

[tonemachine]

+1.

He seems to be arguing semantics/terminology. He even admitted at some point that it resets after every sunk ball. Nobody ever taught me to lay out my plan more than 3 balls ahead but I still figured out right away that if there is a cluster 6 balls ahead that I can and should think about it sooner rather than later. Who wouldn't figure that out even if taught only 3 balls ahead...

I cant believe I wasted my time replying to the pettifogger OP. Troll or loon.

 

[CJ Wiley]

read 'Zen in the Art of Archery' or 'The Inner Game of Tennis'

Yes, it's like if you were looking "two cars ahead" you wouldn't count the car you're in. The system is simple, you play the shot that's real (the one you are shooting) in a way to get an angle on the next ball (visualize) to get on the next one.....anything more than that is unnecessary.

At a certain level of play you must trust the subconscious training that you've went through.....and if you don't know how to train to "not think," then read 'Zen in the Art of Archery' or 'The Inner Game of Tennis' to "real eyes" how important "the zone" is to your highest performance level.

+1.

He seems to be arguing semantics/terminology. He even admitted at some point that it resets after every sunk ball. Nobody ever taught me to lay out my plan more than 3 balls ahead but I still figured out right away that if there is a cluster 6 balls ahead that I can and should think about it sooner rather than later. Who wouldn't figure that out even if taught only 3 balls ahead...

I cant believe I wasted my time replying to the pettifogger OP. Troll or loon.

 

[Zphix]

Believe it or not - most people take things too literally and unless step upon step is explained they'll fail to grasp the concept.

As some others have said - if you tell someone to think three balls ahead (while omitting doing that after every shot) then people will literally play well for three shots then go... "Ohhh f***. What do I do now?"

Sometimes you can't leave sequential steps to implication when teaching others.

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