This is interesting.

[BC21]

Not everyone uses an LD shaft. Personally, I've never found one I liked better than the old faithful ones.

You can still use tuck and roll with LD shafts.

Copied that. I'm sure there are a few shots where I use it automatically. I started playing with a Mezz several years ago and found it's a good in-between for me, just enough of an LD shaft to fit my style. Lost the tip one night and borrowed a friend's schon.... quickly found out I was no longer in tune with the typical/traditional deflection.

Good YouTube find. I'd put "How to Win from Here" among the top of my all-time favorites. I just wonder if Buddy knows someone is showing it for free, considering he is still selling that title now on dvd.. ?

 

[One Pocket John]

Copied that. I'm sure there are a few shots where I use it automatically. I started playing with a Mezz several years ago and found it's a good in-between for me, just enough of an LD shaft to fit my style. Lost the tip one night and borrowed a friend's schon.... quickly found out I was no longer in tune with the typical/traditional deflection.

Good YouTube find. I'd put "How to Win from Here" among the top of my all-time favorites. I just wonder if Buddy knows someone is showing it for free, considering he is still selling that title now on dvd.. ?

Yeah I wondered about that also Brian. So, I downloaded it for future reference.

John

 

[BC21]

Yeah I wondered about that also Brian. So, I downloaded it for future reference.

John

:thumbup: Good idea!

 

[Low500]

It's basically backhand English without a swipe of the hand and upper arm going either away from the body or toward it. It's all controlled with the hand and wrist.
Once you get the hang of it, you'll still have the same cue stick speed and be able to hit hard if you want.
As an addition to above, the stroke distance or speed doesn't change at all from what you normally do. The stroke remains the same. You aren't "cork screwing" the CB either. All that you're doing is changing the cue orientation to either the right or left of center for English during the stroke itself. Again, it's done with the wrist in either a convex or concave position while stroking.
Put the CB on the table with a center ball setup and no intention of actually striking it. Now take your back stroke. As soon as you start forward either tuck or roll but stop just short of hitting the CB. Observe where the tip of your cue is compared to it's original center ball position. It should be either right or left depending on which direction you turned the wrist.

Years ago, when the web was younger, I stumbled across a teaching video of Jimmy Rempe demonstrating this same concept (the tuck and roll). I've forgotten what he called it.
I've searched for a long time trying to find it again, but to no avail.
Wondering if anyone else has ever seen that thing.
(I failed miserably at using it..threw me into a terrible slump). Maybe I am subconsciously using it sometimes now and just don't realize it since I've never been videoed.
Most of my position play comes from a straight stroke with only a miniscule of spin since I use CTE for lining up and aiming.
It'd be nice to see that video once again, though.
Keep on truckin' :thumbup:

 

[One Pocket John]

A match demonstrating Tuck and Roll. Both players use it very well. Watch their grip hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4



Had fun today using it playing my friend.

John

 

[paultex]

A match demonstrating Tuck and Roll. Both players use it very well. Watch their grip hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4



Had fun today using it playing my friend.

John

Ok and watch this one I discovered today. The camera angles are second to none and you can clearly see alot of what's going on with their stroke angles through delivery.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zcedb_yEAk

 

[SpiderWebComm]

A match demonstrating Tuck and Roll. Both players use it very well. Watch their grip hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlbpCxxOW4



Had fun today using it playing my friend.

John

Earl uses TUCK a lot!

 

[One Pocket John]

Interesting. More Tuck and Roll/Throw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eg9yTh73qY

John

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Interesting. More Tuck and Roll/Throw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eg9yTh73qY

John

John, in just the period of one day you're turning into a real motherTucker. Continue to Roll with it. :thumbup:

(another great youtube find)

 

[paultex]

I discovered tuck and roll on my own and I call it a "prepivot" and there's certainly a lot of solution associated with it but it's not always reliable or predictable or guarenteed, depending on your body position or other unorthodox positions that the table forces on you because of reaching or your grip forced close to your body or away from your body.

I'm just trying to make a point that knowledge is probably the most important factor in this endeavor and skill being way less.

Sometimes the tuck or roll has the opposite effect.

Also, quite interesting and I can explain it but it would be too hard for me because I'm not good at describing in a bob villa way of simplicity, but it has to do with "yaw".....and that is:

If you prepivot tuck or roll and then take another warm up or sighting stroke and then pull the trigger, the pivot will be neutralized because the yaw redirects your elbow/forearm angle relationship over one direction or the other.

That's why if you sight, then pivot, your next stroke must be striking the cb.

If one tucks or rolls while they deliver the final stroke, then that would be different and I have tried it that way too and it works but I don't care for that personally because it requires timing and I'm not comfortable or even agree with such a technique but to each their own.

Ultimate excellence in mechanics always goes toward eliminating "timing" as much as possible in every aspect if possible.

 

[paultex]

Earl uses TUCK a lot!

Earl uses a clockwise turn a ton, so wouldn't that be "roll"? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've studied that technique with Earl but can't make it work like he does because I am willing to bet he doesn't shoot with his dominant eye or something like that because he's a right hander and shoots under his right eye.

That's why when I used to shoot in a similar fashion, my stroke would go to the left and I believe Earl found a solution with that clockwise turn.

I've noticed he does it mainly on straight shots because perception forces this phenomenon and I'll be damned, Earl is so tough minded, he actually overides his own brain, proving me wrong because I surmised it wasn't possible......it's obviously possible but most cannot do it.

That's under the context of individuals with a strong dominant eye. Most fall into this category and that's what I'm eluding to. Earl may not be in that category but that grip turn sure is telling IMO.

 

[paultex]

If you go to :50 and study this particular shot Harold is faced with, it's an excellent example of some of the things I try to point out.

The opposite corner of the table is skewing his body toward forcing his grip close to his body, but he appears to want to put high center right. His first strokes are curvy, he get's back up and re-formulates because it's pretty obvious to me, he understands whats going on here and what is required and what is the solution.

He get's back down with a more cognizant stroke awareness and emphasis and I completely understand what's going on here because I work on the exact same things.

It's very hard to maintain that shaft angle in that position and in this case, a clockwise grip roll to compensate is death in my opinion with that bridge length. It will often betray you and could in fact drift out too far right and miscue, which doesn't make sense really, because when your grip is close to your body like that, it tends to skew the stroke inside instead of outside.

However, it depends on grip close to your body AND how parallel your back arm is to the shot line. If your back arm is chicken winged inside, then you could use a clockwise grip turn more reliably. So the feel of the grip close to your body is not always a green light to a typical working solution.

Thats what makes this game very very involved.

Now, I also know, they played with a fat mm tip on average back in those days and Harold's tip certainly is fat. He may have compensated to the right exactly how he planned, allowing a redirect back toward the inside, hitting a more close to center vertical right or something of that requirement because it's clear he did not hit the cb where he was originally aiming.

They say he was one of the top 3 best in history and I have to speculate he couldnt be unless he generally hit exactly where he intended.

You decide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgAmdlfbh1Q

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Earl uses a clockwise turn a ton, so wouldn't that be "roll"? Correct me if I'm wrong.

.

If by clockwise you mean his fingers are turning inward toward his body, the back of his hand is pointing more down to the floor and his wrist is bowing outward in a convex position that is TUCK.

When the fingers turn away from the body and the top of the wrist gets a crease or concave with the back of the hand more toward the ceiling, that is roll.

 

[paultex]

If by clockwise you mean his fingers are turning inward toward his body, the back of his hand is pointing more down to the floor and his wrist is bowing outward in a convex position that is TUCK.

When the fingers turn away from the body and the top of the wrist gets a crease or concave with the back of the hand more toward the ceiling, that is roll.

Lol thanks and just like the difference between inside or outside sweep, I'm backwards, thanks buddy.

That's how bad I am with left and right, I didn't even realize clockwise was relevant to front and back.

I'm severely dyslexic in direction. When I was young, I could not read a clock without severe instruction that took a few days till I finally understood.

Now couple that with right foot inside, middle or outside of shot line, elbow left, middle or right, angle cut left or right or zero angle and it's taken me months to figure out the sequence to hit a soft deflecting tangent line with high right or a reactive deflection off the tangent line with high right.

I don't know if it's normal for this to be so confusing. I really understand it now but there are times I have to think about it and sometimes I get a mental block.

If I read a map but I'm going the physical wrong direction, I have to flip the map upside down but I heard many people are like this.

Lost in a forest? I get lost in a movie theater.

 

[One Pocket John]

Lol thanks and just like the difference between inside or outside sweep, I'm backwards, thanks buddy.

That's how bad I am with left and right, I didn't even realize clockwise was relevant to front and back.

I'm severely dyslexic in direction. When I was young, I could not read a clock without severe instruction that took a few days till I finally understood.

Now couple that with right foot inside, middle or outside of shot line, elbow left, middle or right, angle cut left or right or zero angle and it's taken me months to figure out the sequence to hit a soft deflecting tangent line with high right or a reactive deflection off the tangent line with high right.

I don't know if it's normal for this to be so confusing. I really understand it now but there are times I have to think about it and sometimes I get a mental block.

If I read a map but I'm going the physical wrong direction, I have to flip the map upside down but I heard many people are like this.

Lost in a forest? I get lost in a movie theater.

Hey Paul dyslexic doesn't have anything to do with motor skills, like bowling, golf, pool or just about any sport. Your a visual person, no problem there, I am too.

If you watched the first video of the original post all you have to remember is to tuck the cue will be touching the palm of the hand and the roll will be touching the pad of the base of your thumb.

In the standing position of the shot decide if you want to tuck or roll. Then let the cue touch either the palm or the pad at the base ot the thumb. Like Spidey said, it's all in the hand and the wrist.

I've been hitting balls around since I was 15 and it's been 55 years, yeah I'm over 70. I have always, in the past aimed directly, lets say high right as an example, straight on, no tuck or roll.

Thanks to the original posts I am now on my way to playing the game I have always wanted to play.

Learning this game isn't a sprint.......It's a marathon.

Stay with it.

John

 

[Low500]

How does any of this relate, possibly, to the way Keith McCready used to hit the balls with his sidearm stroke, loose bridge, and semi-vertical stance.?

 

[One Pocket John]

How does any of this relate, possibly, to the way Keith McCready used to hit the balls with his sidearm stroke, loose bridge, and semi-vertical stance.?

Watch Keith play and learn he uses it all. The master.

John

 

[SpiderWebComm]

How does any of this relate, possibly, to the way Keith McCready used to hit the balls with his sidearm stroke, loose bridge, and semi-vertical stance.?

Perfect lead in to where I was going next with this and Keith was going to be my example. Glad you asked.

Keith setup and stroked in a Rolled position, back of the hand toward the ceiling, as soon as he took his stance.

I've seen other pro players setup and stroke from the Tuck position.

Both go completely against the grain of traditional teaching which is to have a straight wrist and hand at setup throughout the stroke.

They shot all shots like this including long straight in shots without any English and were deadly. When Keith was at his prime he was almost unbeatable in high stakes gambling situations.

Why do you think this may have some real merit as opposed to the straight traditional wrist setup that's taught and used?

I don't know if I have the answer but I certainly have some theories. Theories which have been born out into reality with my own experimentation.

 

[Low500]

Perfect lead in to where I was going next with this and Keith was going to be my example. Glad you asked.
Keith setup and stroked in a Rolled position, back of the hand toward the ceiling, as soon as he took his stance.
I've seen other pro players setup and stroke from the Tuck position.
Both go completely against the grain of traditional teaching which is to have a straight wrist and hand at setup throughout the stroke.
They shot all shots like this including long straight in shots without any English and were deadly. When Keith was at his prime he was almost unbeatable in high stakes gambling situations.
Why do you think this may have some real merit as opposed to the straight traditional wrist setup that's taught and used?
I don't know if I have the answer but I certainly have some theories. Theories which have been born out into reality with my own experimentation.

I am a lost ball in the high weeds concerning this technique.
The time I messed with it (for about a month) it took me almost 3 months to get back into the 'old way' and it had thrown me into a terrible slump.
I'm terrified now of tinkering around with something that isn't broke. It sounds like more of something to concentrate on......which I don't need. I'm in concentration overload as it is, which keeps me "in the zone" when playing. I like that 'being in the zone' and 'being able to get there right away' feeling. (no voo-doo, just a matter of practiced mental gymnastics from the minds of great golfers)
We've all watched old videos of Greenleaf and everybody knows he had that 'side swinging' stroke and he shot pretty good. Although some of the old timers who saw him play told me, when I was a kid, that he used inside english on every shot....even on the high slow rolling cueball and when cinching the money ball straight-in. I wonder about all that..?? On those slow rolling drag stroke shots with inside, I don't see how anybody made a ball using that stuff...seeing the way the cues deflected back then.
There is one pro today, who I try to copy in every single thing he does...especially that straight, pure, stroke. That pro is Shane Van Boening. I sat 8 feet from him at Spartanburg and my eyes were glued to that right arm of his for almost 2 days. He has got the stroke that I admire down cold, in my opinion. With no tucking or rolling or anything else like that.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

There is one pro today, who I try to copy in every single thing he does...especially that straight, pure, stroke. That pro is Shane Van Boening. I sat 8 feet from him at Spartanburg and my eyes were glued to that right arm of his for almost 2 days. He has got the stroke that I ADMIRE down cold, in my opinion. With no tucking or rolling or anything else like that.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

Admire is about the best anyone can do. He has a gift from the Gods of Pool.
Reproduce it? I don't think so. Copy it? I don't think so.

Ben Hogan and Tiger Woods may both have had the most perfect swings in golf but nobody has ever reproduced their exact moves to look like them with the same results.. Good luck. Hope is a great motivator.