This month's golf vs pool thread

[Ghosst]

I figured instead of sidetracking the thread I was replying in, I'd just make a new one. We discuss this all the time, but here's my twist.

Its hard to compare golf and pool.

I like your ideas but we have another massve difference. You can't get onto a course with a hoodie and jeans. No one cries racism or stereotyping over it. They don't have to explain why, but there's a dress code on the wall in the club which states collars and slacks are a must. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Paul has gotten a lambasting over his dress code even though it's the same one applied to golf. Granted, and I understand, he makes some exceptions based on the person. It's fairly easy to spot a trouble maker whether their hat is on sidewys or backward. I haven't seen any wannabe gangstas on the course. I also don't hear whining about it like we do with "pool playas" who think everything is owed to them just because they can run a rack.

Pool needs its inflexible customers so sometimes you have to let a jersey get in the door.

Golf courses don't offer free equipment to play when you go out there, every pool hall has free cheap cues to use.

I had long been a proponent of rental cues for a nominal fee. But seeing how cheap people are when it comes to pool I doubt you get the sales out of it to even cover the cost of a McDermott. If there were no cues people would just go the next bar. I don't mean poolhall, I mean bar, because every Joe Schmoe with a little pub can plop a Valley in the corner and here is the problem when you glorify a barbox, what's the first half of the term. You can't play on a "barcourse", you might find a putting green at a large family spot like Dave & Busters. I haven't heard of any "barcourse" national tournaments.

I think pool needs to separate itself from bars and gambling and then it maybe has a shot at becoming a legitamate professional sport.

Even carmakers have different brands. Ford & Lincoln, Toyota & Infinity, Honda & Acura, Chevrolet & Cadillac. Same basic cars, different skins, very different markets. Lincoln makes a version of my truck that only has minor differences. Underneath, it's the same old American workhorse.

We just need to separate the barbox from a 9'. One is pool, one is pocket billiards. Trying to get players to accept that view ...

Two examples: I watched a little of the practice sessions for the US Open 10-Ball. One one table, Angelina Paglia and another pro. He was dressed in suit pants, white shirt, and a vest. Angel was wearing a nice blouse and dress pants. On the table next to them was a guy with two full-sleeve tattoos, a ratty t-shirt, and jeans.

Tattoo was a pretty good player, some positional errors here and there, but he could play. But how does he get into a prestigious event like the US Open dressed like that? He could be the nicest, sweetest guy in the world, but the appearances made it obvious who was there to win, and who was there to show off. Tattoo makes it look like anyone has a chance, and I appreciate that. That helps sell pool to the masses because doesn't look like the stuffy, "I'm too important to talk to you" professional (I'm not saying that's what pros are like either).

Example 2: By the time I'd left, I'd been asked more than a dozen times if I was a pro and if my next match was going to be on the TV table. A few people said I played a great game, "last night." While outside smoking Earl was chatting away to people about the differences between pros and amateurs, looked me straight in the eye and he said, "you know what I mean right?"

I am by no means a pro. I didn't go in covered in patches, I didn't even have a cue with me. There is your visibility of professional pool. Over dinner a couple of RSBers and I went out for dinner. Their remarks about were that I dressed better than some of the pros, that I looked like a pro player when I walked, when I spoke.

During Shane's match with Sylver he leaned over and asked me about his shot on the 4 that resulted in him scratching. SVB asked me about a hit? Talk about a compliment. Anyone who says Shane isn't friendly is dreaming, the guy is great to be around. He may not want to go out and party with random people, he may need to focus a little between matches, but he's genuine.

I wasn't dressed in a suit, just black pants, dress shoes, and a tucked in golf shirt. I wasn't there to prove anything, it's just how I dress. I do my best to represent the sport in a good light. That's all. What separated me was the same thing that separates a barbox from a pocket billiards table. Image.

This isn't a holyier-than-thou ramble either. Its just the comparison you mentioned between golf and pool. If, at a massive tournament where hundreds of players are present to play their best and win their glory, how do I get treated differently by them? They must live and breathe the sport to be good enough to compete. How can they not be aware of who is and is not a pro?

If I was on the side of the 18th green I'd look like every other fan. Tell someone they can't wear a hoodie into a poolhall and you get 30 pages of, "if you touch my hat I'll knock your teeth out." If anyone wants pool to be different, it starts with you, not Mark Griffin, not a sponsor. Sell barbox pool to Ford, sell pocket billiards to Lincoln.

 

[SaB075]

I have never played golf before nor am I a pro pool player. As a golf fan and and pool player though I see many similarities.

Watching any tournament you can see golf and billiards athletes who are in good shape and other athletes that are not so much.

These athletes don't need a six pack or strong arms to be great players.

Golf and Billiards is mostly mental. Excellent hand-eye coordination is a must to be a champion.

But by no means is billiards or golf in the same category as poker or chess.

Physical ability is very important. The muscles in your arms and your back as well as your legs for your stance all contribute to good play in both golf and tennis.

If you worked out and are sore in your arms and back, your stroke will suffer. (when it comes to billiards specifically) Each player has a unique stroke and soreness will affect a players ability to 'play their game.'

Golfers and billiards players both should work out in my opinion because it helps to build endurance and feeling healthy adds confidence.

Golfers and Billiards players don't have to be on the same physical level of tennis pros.
But as an athlete putting in the practice is important to building strengths to one's game. If billiards wants to be considered as a sport like golf and tennis, the pros collectively need to care about their image as athletes by living and promoting healthy lifestyles. I think many pro billiards players are doing that already.

 

[Okie]

I figured instead of sidetracking the thread I was replying in, I'd just make a new one. We discuss this all the time, but here's my twist.....

Excellent points!

A point which I have not seen made on AZB is how golf came to be what it is today. In the 20's arguably the best golfer in the world chose to be an amateur golfer and a lawyer by profession. In today's world, I bet he would go ahead and declare himself as a professional golfer. In less than 100 years the world of golf has changed dramatically. How did this happen? It happened because thousands of local club pros over many years promoted the game in a positive environment which a person felt comfortable exposing their children to. Then their children came back with their own children...etc etc.

I doubt we can get parents to take children to a pool hall but as "local pros" we can do everything in our power to promote and teach the game we love! It starts with us as individuals! Who knows...if enough of us work hard enough maybe we will all meet up at the local family pool hall one day.

 

[risky biz]

Excellent points!

A point which I have not seen made on AZB is how golf came to be what it is today. In the 20's arguably the best golfer in the world chose to be an amateur golfer and a lawyer by profession. In today's world, I bet he would go ahead and declare himself as a professional golfer. In less than 100 years the world of golf has changed dramatically. How did this happen? It happened because thousands of local club pros over many years promoted the game in a positive environment which a person felt comfortable exposing their children to. Then their children came back with their own children...etc etc.

I doubt we can get parents to take children to a pool hall but as "local pros" we can do everything in our power to promote and teach the game we love! It starts with us as individuals! Who knows...if enough of us work hard enough maybe we will all meet up at the local family pool hall one day.

Part of the reason golf is more popular is because it is a superficially "outdoorsy", healthy activity. Has anyone ever worn a pedometer while playing pool for six hours and compared it to wearing a pedometer while playing golf for six hours? And that's assuming those "healthy" golfers don't hire a caddy or rent a golf cart.

 

[justadub]

I guess it depends on where you play.

There isn't a golf course within a few hours of here that I couldn't play at in jeans and a hoodie, including the two "private" courses in the area. So long as the jeans and the hoodie were reasonable, as well as any other sort of clothing.

Now I'm quite sure there are plenty of ritzy country club courses where that wouldn't be the case, and your assertion would be correct. But on average, how many pool rooms are "country club" sorts of places? Paul's seems to be (and that's OK), and I'm sure there are others.

Pool doesn't seem to be a country club type of game, at least to me. Not that it can't be. Perhaps that is what you'd like it to be, and that's the point of the thread?

 

[risky biz]

I guess it depends on where you play.

There isn't a golf course within a few hours of here that I couldn't play at in jeans and a hoodie, including the two "private" courses in the area. So long as the jeans and the hoodie were reasonable, as well as any other sort of clothing.

Now I'm quite sure there are plenty of ritzy country club courses where that wouldn't be the case, and your assertion would be correct. But on average, how many pool rooms are "country club" sorts of places? Paul's seems to be (and that's OK), and I'm sure there are others.

Pool doesn't seem to be a country club type of game, at least to me. Not that it can't be. Perhaps that is what you'd like it to be, and that's the point of the thread?

As America became more and more urbanized a certain segment of the population who like to think of themselves as more sporty than the average Joe were attracted to the faux-outdoorsy game of golf. They had no concept of the real outdoors. They are satisfied with the Alice In Wonderland "outdoors" of golf. That's part of the reason for the popularity of golf.

 

[bud green]

Have you actually seen some of the outfits John Daly wears?

Country Clubs might give you some grief, but almost all the other golf courses just want business right now and won't hassle you over jeans.

 

[Ghosst]

Maybe courses in America are little more relaxed than ours, but it's not the only thing I referenced. I know our courses just won't let you in without the right attire. People who play pool seem to resist bringing the sport in repute.

 

[risky biz]

Maybe courses in America are little more relaxed than ours, but it's not the only thing I referenced. I know our courses just won't let you in without the right attire. People who play pool seem to resist bringing the sport in repute.

I judge players by how they play, not by how they dress. Maybe at your golf course it's the opposite?

 

[Ghosst]

That's exactly what I referenced in my OP ... tell people they can't wear hoodies and it becomes a swinging contest. You may notice I did say the genteman with the sleeves played well, and that I didn't judge his ability because he was dressed poorly.

What you wear can actually make you play worse though, I know one of the tips I received was that if a sponsor asks you to wear a certain shirt, you should practice in it for a while or you might find the sleeves interfere with your stroke, or that it fits too tight across your shoulders etc. If you're also not used to dressing a certain way, it may make you nervous aswell, particularly at a larger tournament.

I did receive some good words about the post, so I know it touches on a lot of people. It might be hard to stand up and say so on here though, lately, people get bent out of shape if you can afford chalk, aim differently, or understand enough about cues not to be affronted by ivory.

But why the stubborn reluctance to leave pool in disrepute? Why do want to look like tough guys all the time? Why frighten people from joining our sport by intimidating them if they don't know how to play yet? I don't recall having been born with a cue in my hand, and I'm fairly sure no else did either so we must have all been beginners at some point. No where did I say (other than a poll for a streamed tourney) that we must wear bowties and vests either (I think it's reasonable in some sports like Billiards and Snooker, and in events like a charity tournament).

Since tone is hard to decipher from the written word, I'm asking honestly because there must be something different in America. I actually do live north of the border in a completely separate country. Is there a reason to resist that I'm not aware of? Most of the people down here I've met are great, but they're also all pros or darned close to it. The amateurs are a different bunch, always trying to swagger, always trying to prove themselves. And yet they complain people don't want to play pool?

Does it not occur that if you look scary, or sound like you want to hurt someone, that they probably don't want to be around you?

 

[justadub]

I think many of us tire of the same old argument about clothing defining the person. Paul has had a long running thread, one that has as many good points as bad, and it can get a rise out of folks.

What I take issue with is the stereotyping of the day, currently "hoodies" being "scary". Since you live in Canada, surely you are aware of temperature changes. Hoodies have long been a nice, comfortable, WARM article of clothing to wear. Just because some hoodlums wear them shouldn't make the rest of the population have to become grouped into their potential for bad behavior.

I wear hoodies, and have since long before the current stereotyping occurred. Many folks here have, also.

That's why you get the reaction that you do.

Now then, as for changing pools image, I have no issue with that. But unless you truly want to make it a formal dress code (like Paul) , you have to put up with the evils of jeans and hoodies. If ya wanna make it polo's and dockers, I'm fine with that, but I bet you'll get a far smaller turnout. If that's what you're shooting for, good luck. It will take more than a dress code to change pools image. It can't hurt, but methinks you have the cart before the horse here.

 

[msubilliards]

I don't think clothes are the problem, I think the venue is the biggest problem, you aren't going to get any major sponsors for tournaments if the sport itself is considered gambling in a bar. Most of your televised tournaments are sponsored by casino's. I would love to see pool on tv as regular as golf, bowling, or tennis. Nothing is better in my opinon than watching good cue ball control and safety battles in 9 or 10 ball.

 

[krupa]

I don't think clothes are the problem, I think the venue is the biggest problem, you aren't going to get any major sponsors for tournaments if the sport itself is considered gambling in a bar. Most of your televised tournaments are sponsored by casino's. I would love to see pool on tv as regular as golf, bowling, or tennis. Nothing is better in my opinon than watching good cue ball control and safety battles in 9 or 10 ball.

It's image in general. Gambling, venues, and clothes are all part of it.

 

[risky biz]

That's exactly what I referenced in my OP ... tell people they can't wear hoodies and it becomes a swinging contest. You may notice I did say the genteman with the sleeves played well, and that I didn't judge his ability because he was dressed poorly.

What you wear can actually make you play worse though, I know one of the tips I received was that if a sponsor asks you to wear a certain shirt, you should practice in it for a while or you might find the sleeves interfere with your stroke, or that it fits too tight across your shoulders etc. If you're also not used to dressing a certain way, it may make you nervous aswell, particularly at a larger tournament.

I did receive some good words about the post, so I know it touches on a lot of people. It might be hard to stand up and say so on here though, lately, people get bent out of shape if you can afford chalk, aim differently, or understand enough about cues not to be affronted by ivory.

But why the stubborn reluctance to leave pool in disrepute? Why do want to look like tough guys all the time? Why frighten people from joining our sport by intimidating them if they don't know how to play yet? I don't recall having been born with a cue in my hand, and I'm fairly sure no else did either so we must have all been beginners at some point. No where did I say (other than a poll for a streamed tourney) that we must wear bowties and vests either (I think it's reasonable in some sports like Billiards and Snooker, and in events like a charity tournament).

Since tone is hard to decipher from the written word, I'm asking honestly because there must be something different in America. I actually do live north of the border in a completely separate country. Is there a reason to resist that I'm not aware of? Most of the people down here I've met are great, but they're also all pros or darned close to it. The amateurs are a different bunch, always trying to swagger, always trying to prove themselves. And yet they complain people don't want to play pool?

Does it not occur that if you look scary, or sound like you want to hurt someone, that they probably don't want to be around you?

As far as I can see people in pool rooms in Las Vegas dress pretty much the same way people at ball games and libraries shopping malls dress so I can't even figure out what you're talking about. Are you trying to say pool players should dress like the dweeby wannabes you can see on any golf course? You must be kidding.

And what's wrong with calling pool by the name pool?

 

[SplicedPoints]

Pool will never be more popular with the general population if it stays with its gambling, chain smoking, drinking and cussing (you hear it all the time in rooms) image.

I know some people like it that way. I also know that not all players or room are that way. But that's the way 90+% of the general population perceive pool. Most parents who want their kids to grow up healthy and productive don't think about sending their kids to the pool hall when sports like tennis and soccer (and many others) will train their kids both physically and socially.

"Pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people". Unless you take away the "ugly" part, pool can't compete with other sports. There will be people who would say "pool is fine the way it is. We don't need to make it more popular". That's fine too. But don't complain if pool doesn't get the kind of sponsorship (Nike? you're day dreaming) or coverage you think it deserves.

 

[30REBORNFAN]

I don't think clothes are the problem, I think the venue is the biggest problem, you aren't going to get any major sponsors for tournaments if the sport itself is considered gambling in a bar. Most of your televised tournaments are sponsored by casino's. I would love to see pool on tv as regular as golf, bowling, or tennis. Nothing is better in my opinon than watching good cue ball control and safety battles in 9 or 10 ball.

Quick question brought up by this last post. Before I ask it though I will agree with the OP that any tournament worth its salt should enforce a dress code.

Does Bowling really get decent TV time in the States? I would see that sport as a closer cousin to Pool than Golf. I'm guessing Bowling has to continually overcome image issues (social 'game', drinking culture, etc) so my question, as a curious non-American, would be this -

What is Bowling doing right, or so differently, to Pool?

 

[krupa]

Does Bowling really get decent TV time in the States?

I have the cheapest TV package available with about 14 channels and I can still find bowling on TV. Not regularly, but it's there.

 

[Worminator]

Bottom line for me...

I am an avid pool player and golfer. I have strongly encouraged my 14 year old son to play golf, which he does. I have not discouraged him from playing pool, but I have not encouraged it either. He does not play pool.

Some local folks who have a son just a year older than mine have strongly encouraged their son to play pool. He plays pool and plays very, very well. He has now dropped out of high school to chase the pool lifestyle. That is a perfect example of why I have not encouraged my son to play pool.

IMO the principles, etiquette, and disciplines of golf give young people a better chance to set them self up for success in life. Most play golf and support the game the rest of their life. Many go on to successful careers and work for corporations that support the game with sponsorship monies, or, they encourage companies they go to work for to support the game by starting to offer sponsorship monies. Golf is a big part of the culture of many, many businesses and corporations. The company I work for spends a great deal of money supporting charity golf outings, golf as customer entertainment, and is a major sponsor of an LPGA event.

IMO, young pool players expect the game to support them. A complete 180 from the way golf works, and a model that does not set the game, or the player, up for success. If I were to ask my company to sponsor a pool tournament they would look at me like I had lost my mind.

 

[3andstop]

Maybe courses in America are little more relaxed than ours, but it's not the only thing I referenced. I know our courses just won't let you in without the right attire. People who play pool seem to resist bringing the sport in repute.

Forget golf and pool, just in general, thanks for referring to our tolerances as relaxed rather what they really are. A complete disintegration of moral and social values, two generations removed with no real hope of the current violators even understanding respect anymore.

 

[Ghosst]

Lots of good points guys, thanks for the replies. As you know, I'm fairly long winded only because when I try to be shorter it gets misinterpreted.

As always, if I quote in a thread like this, it's not always directed at the person, more directed at the idea(s) in it.

But that's the way 90+% of the general population perceive pool ... There will be people who would say "pool is fine the way it is. We don't need to make it more popular". That's fine too. But don't complain if pool doesn't get the kind of sponsorship (Nike? you're day dreaming) or coverage you think it deserves.

Let's just assume my company does sponsor some golf tournaments already. We wouldn't need to advertise them because the billboards do the work for us and the image they give suits our business. In the general realm of pool, I don't see something there yet I would recommend. I've been playing for a long time, everyone knows I love pool, billiards, and snooker, so obviously it's not a lack of interest of my part.

Let me be clear here; We are not looking to sponsor anyone. And let me be more clear, if that ever happens, it won't be someone who has a tanty over a missed shot, then berates everyone watching or breaks their cue over a table. I know it's entertaining for some, but it's not an image corporate sponsors want. I understand the mentality of the professional and how much of a roller coaster it is to get so high only to miss. I understand why it happens, but it doesn't mean I want to explain to my accountants why our logo is on a player who acts like that.

Now ... on with the thread...

Being at a casino is just a venue, that has no real detraction to it. I can buy beer on any golf course here, we have pretty things driving around in beer carts just for that purpose. The difference is indoor bar or outdoor bar. Inside I think you're tempted to drink more.

And yes, I labelled this, "This month's golf vs pool..." for a reason. We've all seen it, we've all participated in a, "what's wrong with pool" thread. I'm giving a different perspective, and an idea. What people do with it determines where it goes. You don't have to send me money, or to the IPT, or a Wall Street bank. You make all the difference on your own.

Hoodies are worn here in Canada, as our weather is a, "wee bit" extreme. However, I haven't seen any snow in the pool hall in recent years, nor has the glaring desert sunshine sunburnt anyone behind the doors. Actually as of late more and more people are showing up wearing collars. Seems like something is catching on.

Are you trying to say pool players should dress like the dweeby wannabes you can see on any golf course? You must be kidding. And what's wrong with calling pool by the name pool?

Well as I said, I think the bartables are pool. I like the idea that any Joe Schmoe has a chance at the USBTC. I also think the pros should stay out of that so the regular Joe can win, but then it's hard to determine what is and is not a pro. That and there just isn't money out there for pros as is so it's hard to exclude them.

My humble opinion is that if you love something then you show it some respect. I love the 9' tables and I respect the sport, the players, and the industry representatives. I show that with my dollars, attendance, and how I conduct myself. If the image is that bartables are for everyone, then I would not wear what I do because that doesn't fit with the image they want. I honestly think 7' and 9' need some distance between them.

Calling people derogatory names like, "dweeby wannabes" only reinforces the image the police missed rounding up another wife-beater out drinking and banging balls on a Saturday night. (It doesn't feel good when it gets turned around, does it?) And I don't just mean you, that's the exact image pool has for many parents; a bunch of drunken rednecks and murderers waiting to rob you.

Brunswick had the same idea but universally applied it to any table with holes in the slate. Pool is slang, but it's in common usage so it won't go away. Any TD can start to turn it around by using the words, "Pocket Billiards", (or any other term that works) when they have their tournament on 9' tables. It's simple, and subtle. Words can bring down an institution, and image alone can build one.

It's just an idea in the end. I don't think pool will be golf within my lifetime. Clothes don't make the man, but as is said, "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." Whether you want more or not determines if you can make that first step on your own. It's a collar, not a noose.