this why you complain about apa ?

[RRfireblade]

Definitely no apologies necessary. The internet is thee worst place to transfer intent.

I've played league on and off for 10 or 15 years maybe? Probably played them all at one time or another. By far most of the people are good hearted and like sportsman minded. There is always one team of cheaters putting all their hopes and dreams on the free trip to vegas and always one team having way too much of a good time, showing up late, drinking too much. The usual.

All the other stuff you delt with is standard. Its not every day all the time but it will all happened to you again as you get more time under your belt so be ready.

:cheers:

please accept my apology. it was more of a question than a statement. i put a questionmark at the end of the title but i forgot to put the word is in front of the title.

next month will be 2 years that i have been playing apa.

1. have never had to get players at the last minute before.
2. our team has never had to worry about the handicap limit before. until this session i have always been the highest level on our team as a 5.
3. refer to n # 2.
4. not apa league related . just stated what i attribute my 1 loss in this tournament to.5. again this was new to me. we have never had anyone complain about the handicap of anyone on our team.

again my apologies if you thought i got my panties in a bunch. i am usually a laid back kinda guy and it usually takes more than what you posted to get me irate, unless i have one of those bad days where nothing went right

i hardly ever drink nowadays and when i do it is never more than a beer or 2. the majority of my league matches are in a pool hall and i can only recall 1 time i encountered a drunk while playing.

i play on a traveling money league also. that is an entirely different atmosphere altogether. plenty of people drinking in some real dive bars. being an old bar banger i pretty much have encountered it all, nothing much phases me anymore when it comes to playing in bars.

again it was more of a question than a statement.

a lot of people that post on here bashing apa and leagues always complain about sandbaggers , drunks etc. etc.

i guess i am fortunate to play in an area where we have a teriffic lo and most people are pretty civil to each other.

i am just amazed to hear people come on here and state that my un-ordinary event this weekend is pretty much commonplace in other areas.

 

[8pack]

It seems like you all do too much B&Moaning instead of playing the games. Glad I never joined. Seems like eveyony walks around with a rule book and a cell with LO on speeddial or speed text or whatever ya call it today. Sounds like a bunch of pool lawyers.:smile: Johnnyt

Good thing they sell beer,makes all the bs a little easier to deal with.:grin:

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

league bs

Any pocket?

Yep, sounds like the usual league BS. Best of luck to your team though, outside of the complaining it sounds like you are doing fairly well. Cheers! -Josh

yes normal every week league drama
saftey maybe im out of date and i dont play apa.
i havent called a saftey in years. i just call another pocket or miss.
i rather own and block a pocket then call saftey.

secret of winning is dont miss :thumbup:
MMike

 

[lorider]

Accurate number of safes according to you. Remember it's subjective, what's obvious to you may not be so to the next guy. I was like you but likely 10 times worse then I realized I could only control what I did. I had to learn to trust the person keeping score at least for my team, and there were times they didn't see things the way I did. The guy is a 6 or a 7, you said you missed an easy 8-ball and left it in the jaws for him and you say he wasn't in your head? Maybe it wasn't him, I suppose it could have been the other teams (or you own) scorekeeper. Control what you can, not what everyone does. Chances are your LO doesn't even know who is who as they put in the stats and doesn't much care anyway, and all they have to work with is what they are given. The sandbaggers will always be there, you can't control that. What I have found is that most of the people I once accused of sandbagging I can now beat anyway. If you've beaten better players that are better than this guy should you also be a 6, or even a 7? Control what you do, how you hit the ball, the safes you play, the sandbaggers will begin to complain about you.

thanks for the advice. every body probably has a pet peeve about something, mine just happens to be accurate scorekeeping.

i can pretty much fade every thing else. i just believe accurate scores result in accurate handicaps.

as far as me being rated a 6 or even a 7 ? i would like to be at that level. i have 2 things hindering me from reaching that level. 1 thing is something every one pretty much faces at one time or another , that is focus. the other is an injury to my shooting hand. i am just too inconsistent to stay at a higher level.

let me give you an example.

last fri nite i played double jeapordy. i beat a 6 in both 8 an 9 ball.

sat at the above tournament i lost to that 6 i spoke of in my 1st post 5-3. at the end of 4 racks we were tied at 2-2. that is when i noticed the scoring discrepancy. the 5 th rack i knocked in the 8 early, the 6th rack is when i left the 8 hanging. the last rack he just outplayed me plain and simple. if i had not handed him to wins i would have won 4-4.

i managed to put that loss behind me and won my next match beating a 4 , 4-0..

tonight i played a 4 in 9 ball and lost 31-21. my hand was killing me due to it was raining here and i just could not focus.

again thanks for the advice and i am just going to fade everything i have no control over. but you do know thats easier said than done.

 

[lorider]

Hey, congrats on pulling it together on short notice. And for riding it out, even with a little bit of drama. As you know, there can be times when there is more drama than what you faced, for better and for worse.

I think this is actually good for you, in that it's a series of reminders on how to handle things on your end. You know that you can't control what the other guy (or the LO) does, but if you manage yourself and your team, you'll be on the better end of it.

Good luck!

(P.S. I'm unofficially "racing' you to get to SL6 first! Let the bashers jump on that stuff...hee hee.)

(P.P.S. I fully expect that you'll get there first, based on what I read from you here. I've been shooting better lately, though, so watch out! )

thanks dub. you know i have a pretty good record on here of being a staunch defender of apa.

i guess i am pretty fortunate to have not faced any drama in my 2 years of playing apa except for what i posted in this thread.

and i guess i am fortunate to have a great lo. he is always at every tournament. he actually runs them. he is always walking around watching matches when he is not updating the tournament board. i also happen to play on 2 teams that he plays on.

i have only had one issue with him and that was when he gave me some incorrect info regarding my 1st regional singles tournament. after wards i realized he is only human just like the rest of us and is capable of making a mistake. i soon put that past me because i saw he is very dedicated to his franchise.

he is always at one of his divisions every night and always responds to a call or txt from me in a timely manner. i could not ask for a better lo.

 

[lorider]

Hey, congrats on pulling it together on short notice. And for riding it out, even with a little bit of drama. As you know, there can be times when there is more drama than what you faced, for better and for worse.

I think this is actually good for you, in that it's a series of reminders on how to handle things on your end. You know that you can't control what the other guy (or the LO) does, but if you manage yourself and your team, you'll be on the better end of it.

Good luck!

(P.S. I'm unofficially "racing' you to get to SL6 first! Let the bashers jump on that stuff...hee hee.)

(P.P.S. I fully expect that you'll get there first, based on what I read from you here. I've been shooting better lately, though, so watch out! )

oh yea... unofficial race to a 6 huh ? you just gave me some incentive to get my head outa my ass and focus better

well i also got to figure out how to ignore the pain in this bum hand. maybe a couple of beers before i start shooting will work:smile:

i basically quit drinking a couple of years ago. i guess a few when i shoot would work, you know, for medicinal use:thumbup:

let me give you some incentive to reach a higher level. when you reach a 6 lemme know and i will send you a cube of that kamui chalk you just cant seem to pull the trigger on.

 

[lorider]

yes normal every week league drama
saftey maybe im out of date and i dont play apa.
i havent called a saftey in years. i just call another pocket or miss.
i rather own and block a pocket then call saftey.

secret of winning is dont miss :thumbup:
MMike

normal every week drama ? man i am glad i dont play in your area.

it is not required to call safties but it is required to mark obvious safties on the score sheet.

your last sentence is very true, the secret of winning is dont miss

 

[lorider]

Definitely no apologies necessary. The internet is thee worst place to transfer intent.

I've played league on and off for 10 or 15 years maybe? Probably played them all at one time or another. By far most of the people are good hearted and like sportsman minded. There is always one team of cheaters putting all their hopes and dreams on the free trip to vegas and always one team having way too much of a good time, showing up late, drinking too much. The usual.

All the other stuff you delt with is standard. Its not every day all the time but it will all happened to you again as you get more time under your belt so be ready.

:cheers:

thanks man. if you are ever down this way the beer is on me.

 

[DecentShot]

If a 6 is sandbagging in 8 ball it doesn't seem as big of a deal as with 9 ball in the APA. I mean he is only play one below max speed in 8 ball. And sometimes 6s can play well. Maybe one day he looks like an SL 8 and maybe one day he looks like a 5. Without being able to see him play more than once, it might be hard to tell. Especially as you say you didn't capitalize on your chances, it doesn't matter if he was sandbagging or not. You beat yourself. Despite what you read on the forums, the APA handicap system is very accurate. I can see how if your are a middle tier player, sour grapes can creep in. Im a 7 so I usually play the highest SL on the other team, and if he is a sandbagger...more power to him, hell I love it. Also the tone of the story suggests the other team had a better beat on the format. They knew the proper SL count. They put up players that probably played a little over their SL, these are the breaks. The APA is great, its the people that get in the way.

 

[Raider510]

wait a minute, they mark down how many safeties you play?

 

[AlinEdm]

I love this time of year. With the last Tri-annual and Regionals close together it’s a great month for competitive pool. The team I play on is in a division with only six teams so now we get to see how our SL’s rank against other divisions. No more playing against “weak/good” opponents, now we are facing “good/really good” SL’s. Instead of seeing them as sandbaggers they are an indication that the competitive bar is being raised the closer Vegas gets.

p.s. Justadub, I’m unofficially racing you to a S.L. 6. I’ve been sandbagging for years just for this opportunity, but now I’ll be calling every miss a defensive shot :smile:

 

[justadub]

I love this time of year. With the last Tri-annual and Regionals close together it’s a great month for competitive pool. The team I play on is in a division with only six teams so now we get to see how our SL’s rank against other divisions. No more playing against “weak/good” opponents, now we are facing “good/really good” SL’s. Instead of seeing them as sandbaggers they are an indication that the competitive bar is being raised the closer Vegas gets.

p.s. Justadub, I’m unofficially racing you to a S.L. 6. I’ve been sandbagging for years just for this opportunity, but now I’ll be calling every miss a defensive shot :smile:

:thumbup:

I set a goal to reach SL6 by a certain date. The way I've played the last few months, I am doubtful that I will make that goal, but this stuff adds some fun to it.

Hey, I went 1-9 last session and they didn't move me down, maybe if I win a few....

By the way, I'm talking 8-ball, just to be clear. I'm worse in 9-ball, lol...

 

[Celophanewrap]

again thanks for the advice and i am just going to fade everything i have no control over. but you do know thats easier said than done.

I do, I've been at this APA thing for a loooooooooooooong time. C U in Las Vegas?

Note to all: To sandbag properly you have to know the system, not THINK you know the system

 

[TheNewSharkster]

lorider-

Why did you care about the safety shots? Those do not have to match on the scoresheet. You weren't keeping score since you were playing. Pay attention to the match.

Besides if he is a SL6 he was doing a poor job of sandbagging. Sandbagging implies the person plays below their true skill level. The only higher rank he could be would be a SL7. So you are looking at a 1 game difference at worst.

 

[lorider]

lorider-

Why did you care about the safety shots? Those do not have to match on the scoresheet. You weren't keeping score since you were playing. Pay attention to the match.

Besides if he is a SL6 he was doing a poor job of sandbagging. Sandbagging implies the person plays below their true skill level. The only higher rank he could be would be a SL7. So you are looking at a 1 game difference at worst.

why do i care ?

all i ever see on this forum in any thread that mentions the apa is people complaining about the apa is full of sandbaggers. i want to do my part in ensuring every player is properly handicapped.

do i think my area is full of sandbaggers ? no. do i think there are some people in my area underhandicapped ? yes. i think some are underhandicapped because not too many people bother to mark safties.
i try to educate all my teamates on what to look for in marking safties.

the reason people are underhandicapped is due to incorrect scoring. how can you expect a lo or the home office to accurately handicap a player if you do not have accurate scoresheets ? one of the ways the apa betermines proper skill levels is the number of innings played during a match.

if the scorekeepers are sitting there shooting the bull about what was on tv last night or what there plans are that weekend and just marking down the innings when player b leaves the table and they total up 25 innings for the match. how the hell is the lo going to know that player a made 10 safes in those 25 innings if no one marked them down. he is just going to assume both players banged balls for 25 innings and player a will never be moved to a level reflecting his actual performance .

why do i care so much about a 6 not being raised to a 7 if his actual performance indicates he should be a 7 ? yea you are right it is only 1 more game. 1 more game he has to play which increases my odds of winning the match.

as has been said on this forum many a time. anything can happen in a short race. the longer the race the better the odds for the better player.

 

[incognito]

A fundamental with the APA's handicap system is that safeties almost never get properly marked on the score sheets. Safeties essentially cancel out innings, therefore you get too many innings for most matches which implies that the players play weaker than they actually do play. So even when score keepers don't cheat, you frequently get too many innings.

There are several reasons why the safeties don't get marked. This is often because low skill level players don't even recognize a safety when it is played. It is also because of the APA's flawed rules. Safeties are too subjective. A player doesn't have to call a safety because you don't have to call your pockets on any shots except for the 8 in 8-ball. Second, the APA scorekeeping rules don't require players to verify the safety count after every game, like they do for innings. This is really stupid, and is probably the main cause of problems with the APA handicap system.

Then, in addition to this problem, sandbagging is common practice because the 23 rule practically forces teams to cheat to avoid forfeiting matches and to keep a team together.

So both honest score keeping errors and cheating make the Equalizer Handicap System inherently flawed. NAPA's gonna start kicking the APA's ass as they continue to grow for this reason.

 

[lorider]

A fundamental with the APA's handicap system is that safeties almost never get properly marked on the score sheets. Safeties essentially cancel out innings, therefore you get too many innings for most matches which implies that the players play weaker than they actually do play. So even when score keepers don't cheat, you frequently get too many innings.

There are several reasons why the safeties don't get marked. This is often because low skill level players don't even recognize a safety when it is played. It is also because of the APA's flawed rules. Safeties are too subjective. A player doesn't have to call a safety because you don't have to call your pockets on any shots except for the 8 in 8-ball. Second, the APA scorekeeping rules don't require players to verify the safety count after every game, like they do for innings. This is really stupid, and is probably the main cause of problems with the APA handicap system.

Then, in addition to this problem, sandbagging is common practice because the 23 rule practically forces teams to cheat to avoid forfeiting matches and to keep a team together.

So both honest score keeping errors and cheating make the Equalizer Handicap System inherently flawed. NAPA's gonna start kicking the APA's ass as they continue to grow for this reason.

you are pretty much spot on in your post.

as i said in my above post i try to educate our scorekeepers. a lot of times when i am watching a match and i see an obvious safe i ask our scorekeeper , did you mark it ? if they say no i ask why not ?

by not being required to call a saftiy it is pretty much subjective but any somewhat experienced player can spot an obvious saftey.
nothing you can do about those " intentional misses " .

in our area our lo initiated a bonus point syatem for accurate scorekeeping.

in 9 ball you are awarded 10 points for an accurate scorecard.if you had 60 points that match he enters 70 points in the records.

8 ball you are awarded 1 bonus point.

in looking over division i have seen a few times when he did not award bonus points to a few teams. evidently he found something wrong with their scoresheets. not getting those bonus points will affect your placement in your division. it could mean the difference between 1st and 2nd place at the end of the session.

i dont know about other divisions in our area or other apa franchises for that matter. but here is what we do in the 3 divisions i play in. after each rack the scorekeepers will confer with each other to make sure they both have the same info marked on the scoresheet. this is being done while the balls are being racked again. it has been rare but the game has been held up until the scorekeepers have agreed that their info is the same and that it is correct.then the match resumes.

like i said it is pretty rare for that to happen.
it may seem like a pain in the ass to some of you but it does resolve any issues right then and there instead of the lo getting conflicting scoresheets the next day and then he has to try and sort the discrepancy out.

 

[incognito]

Your average skill level 3 player doesn't know what a safety is let alone recognize one while keeping the score. That's the reason why the system is so flawed. Too many stats to misrepresent either intentionally or accidentally.

you are pretty much spot on in your post.

as i said in my above post i try to educate our scorekeepers. a lot of times when i am watching a match and i see an obvious safe i ask our scorekeeper , did you mark it ? if they say no i ask why not ?

by not being required to call a saftiy it is pretty much subjective but any somewhat experienced player can spot an obvious saftey.
nothing you can do about those " intentional misses " .

 

[Celophanewrap]

Lorider, a question or two, how often do you play in apa matches, and will your team be playing at the NTC this year?

 

[lorider]

Lorider, a question or two, how often do you play in apa matches, and will your team be playing at the NTC this year?

heck man i will do better than that, i will give you a brief summary of my entire pool playing history .

on and off bar banger with a couple of 10 year or so hiatus during marriages

played bcapl for 1 year around 2006 or 2007. also played in a money league during that time.

quit playing again until i joined apa 2 years ago.

currently playing 3 different leagues at the same time.

apa
fri night scotch doubles
sun night double jeapordy
tue night 8 ball

napa
just finished up sat afternoon 8 and 9 ball session
starting a thur night 8 ball session this week

memphis pool league , this is a serious money league.

usually the 1st place team pay is around 1,200.00, then end of session tournament is usually around 1,800.00.
i have played 4 sessions. we have won the following payouts
1,800.00
1,200.00
1,200.00
1,400.00

our team going to the ntc? lol , i wish. our team should be named the revolving doors lol. we have had players come and go every session for every reason you could think of.

kicked 1 off because he admitted he was a sandbagger, yea i reported him to the lo also. kicked 1 off because he was an a**hole. a few left because they moved. 1 quit because he just had a baby. 1 quit because of work conflict. etc. etc. etc.

we got cities this weekend, with a little luck we might get past it.

we just started a new session 3 weks ago. we finally picked up a couple of high level players. if we can keep this team together i like my chances for next year.

also forgot to tell you i went to the regional singles this year and went undefeated all the way to the finals where i lost in a hill- hill match. 1st place went to vegas, i got a plaque