Thorsten Hohmann Vs The World

[Cameron Smith]

When Jack Johnson was running over everyone and the Champion of everything in boxing There were always detractors People saying Ah he's not that good. Or he aint that good anymore, Or So an So could beat him if.... Johnson just proved it until he couldnt anymore and lived a great life until that time. Then when he got old the I told you so's would come out.....

Years from now they will still be talking about Efren and his shots and his matchups. Lets see if they remember Hohmann or a Souquet.

I don't think there is any correlation between Jack Johnson and Efren Reyes. Alot of people passionately hated Jack Johnson. That is what cause them to make the comments that they did. But nevertheless, it wasn't long before it was impossible to make the claim the Jack wasn't that good. Furthermore Jim Jeffries stated after his loss that he could never have beaten him. I don't think anybody ever said that Efren wasn't that good, or that he can't play anymore.

Im not knocking Reyes he is a great player. As far as proffesional tournaments go he is not as dominant as he once was. He still wins but its not as though the rest of the world hasn't a chance. The fact of the matter is that there are other players who are winning more consistently.

Efren Reyes is not the only player shooting pool so of course the public will remember two other world champions. If he won eight world 9 ball titles in a decade it would be a different story.

 

[yobagua]

Oh i think there is a correlation in the fact that people still does not want to believe in Efren's dominance As shown by your post For guys like Luc Salvas to say that Efren is not that good anymore is a joke Does he not remember Efren's strength at the Derby While Luc was struggling to stay alive Efren was taking all comers and spotting them. He keeps stupefying people but there are still the stupid that keep saying he lost his dominance.

Nothing lasts forever. But ask any pro if they will play Efren one pocket even up for their own cash. You get no takers. As Corey says after getting beat 9/7. Efren I dont care what you spot me I cant beat you. Gabe the US Open champ got 9/7 as well. Guys who are 25 years younger than Efren. Would Nicklaus spot Woods the 18th hote?

In the US Open 14.1 tournament in NY, Efren who rarely plays the game, came in 3rd beating top HOF straight pool players and Europeans who play the game every day. Let them all try him in a game Efren plays everyday. Rotation. Any takers from this half a centurian? I dont think so.

Sure Efren can get beaten in tournament play. Any one can win too. Put the names in a hat and pick one. Rodney, Jose, Corey, Alex, Ralf, etc. They are all capable. But there are few and far between them and Efren's status Lets see if Hohmann's holds up

 

[Cameron Smith]

Oh i think there is a correlation in the fact that people still does not want to believe in Efren's dominance As shown by your post For guys like Luc Salvas to say that Efren is not that good anymore is a joke Does he not remember Efren's strength at the Derby While Luc was struggling to stay alive Efren was taking all comers and spotting them. He keeps stupefying people but there are still the stupid that keep saying he lost his dominance.

Nothing lasts forever. But ask any pro if they will play Efren one pocket even up for their own cash. You get no takers. As Corey says after getting beat 9/7. Efren I dont care what you spot me I cant beat you. Gabe the US Open champ got 9/7 as well. Guys who are 25 years younger than Efren. Would Nicklaus spot Woods the 18th hote?

In the US Open 14.1 tournament in NY, Efren who rarely plays the game, came in 3rd beating top HOF straight pool players and Europeans who play the game every day. Let them all try him in a game Efren plays everyday. Rotation. Any takers from this half a centurian? I dont think so.

Sure Efren can get beaten in tournament play. Any one can win too. Put the names in a hat and pick one. Rodney, Jose, Corey, Alex, Ralf, etc. They are all capable. But there are few and far between them and Efren's status Lets see if Hohmann's holds up

There are parts of this post that I think are unfair. First of all I don't think it is appropriate to attack Luc for having an opinion. He has played Efren, I do believe he has won before, so he doesn't suck. Furthermore you base the comparison on one tournament. By that same token I would remind you of the WPA World Championships where Luc qualified for the knock out stages and Efren did not. But that would be unfair as well. Luc is nowhere near the player that Efren is, but he is a great player in his own right. Don't bash him for having his own opinion.

I am an Efren Reyes fan for the record. He has such a smooth stroke, and everything looks absolutely effortless when he is at the table. But at this very point in time I do believe that there are players performing at higher levels more consistently. But I am not going to try and argue it with you because, based on your posts, I don't believe anything I say will have much affect.

 

[yobagua]

I dont believe I ever said Luc Salvas sucks. Did I say that? I make many references in my post. But really did refrain from a researched analysis of the titles and awards Efren has won. Because many others have done it before. The list is something that Hohmann or Salvas does not come close to. Not yet that is.

However I do not rely on one tournament but on an event that took over 2 weeks that showed who the undeniable master there is in all cue arts. No whatever you say does not change my mind and I am open to it. But you just dont have the facts that back you up in saying that Efren has lost his dominance. Look back in the last 2 years. He is still the top money winner. What more do you want? Some ribbons from some association or politician praising your game. He has that too.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I dont believe I ever said Luc Salvas sucks. Did I say that? I make many references in my post. But really did refrain from a researched analysis of the titles and awards Efren has won. Because many others have done it before. The list is something that Hohmann or Salvas does not come close to. Not yet that is.

However I do not rely on one tournament but on an event that took over 2 weeks that showed who the undeniable master there is in all cue arts. No whatever you say does not change my mind and I am open to it. But you just dont have the facts that back you up in saying that Efren has lost his dominance. Look back in the last 2 years. He is still the top money winner. What more do you want? Some ribbons from some association or politician praising your game. He has that too.

I didn't word the part about Luc very well, and I apologize for that. But you did seem to make references to the fact that Luc can't hold his own.

My opinion is based on what I have heard from some touring pros. It is difficult for me to give anything more than that because I don't see him play outside of the US Open and the World Championships. As a result I can not provide any meaningful empirical data in order to prove anything in a substantial manner, which is what a discussion such as this requires. I put weight into what they say because they have experianced his game first hand. But I want to restate that they do remind me of how tough he is.

As far as the ribbons from the political association or politicians, that would be nice. I think Efren would appreciate that.

 

[jnav447]

JSP wrote: No one can beat Reyes in the all-around title. No one will ever come close in history's past or history's future. IMO.

I'm a huge Efren fan, and if I had to pick one player as the best all-around in history, it would be Efren. But, to say that no one in history can come close to Efren is, at a minimum, debatable. Luther Lassiter dominated pool for years, both side games and tournements. His performance in the early Johnston City tournements is incredible, when you realize he was playing against a field of almost all HOFers, and EVERYONE was an all-around champion in his own right. He was, in his (long-lasting) prime, clearly the best 9-ball player in the world, arguably the best 14.1 player in the world, one of the best 1-pocket players in the world, great bank pool player, and I'm sure he could have been world-class at 3C if the money was right and you give him time to gear up. Unfortunately, we'll never have a comprehensive visual and written record of Wimpy's accomplishments, but there are people in this forum who saw Wimpy play and have seen Efren, and I would be shocked if they didn't put Wimpy in the same "once in a generation" category as Efren. There was one other guy named Harold Worst who may have been the greatest cue practicioner of all time, according to some pretty good sources. If you include the following games when speaking of all-around (like I do) 9B, 8B, 1P, 14.1, banks, you've got to put Jose Parica on the short list, as well. I know I'm prejudiced, but if a player ain't world-class at 1P, he doesn't even belong in the conversation about best all-around.

 

[bud green]

Worst was an excellent three cushion player and one of the few who could beat nine ballers like Lassiter or Don Willis. If he hadn't died tragically young, he might have had as accomplished a career as Efren.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

This is, in some ways, a very difficult debate.

If the question is "of those that remain stars of pool, who has the best playing resume?", the debate really comes down to two players, Reyes and Souquet. I'll leave out the credentials of Reyes as they are so well known, but Souquet's absolutely dominant career is sometimes overlooked because Ralf is such a low-key pool superstar. Did you realize that:

Ralf Souquet has won the World 9-Ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the Sands Regency Reno 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the US Open 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the US Open 14.1 Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the BCA Open 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the Derby City Classic 9-ball Championship
Ralf Souquet has won the Intl Challenge of Champions
Ralf Souquet has won the World Pool Masters

....and that ain't all!

Still, despite Ralf's absolutely incredible playing resume, I give the nod to Efren, who merits serious consideration as the best pool player of all time.

But what if the question is "who is the best right now?" That's a different question. If you look at performance just over the last few years, it's tough to make a case for anybody other than Thorsten Hohmann or Alex Pagulayan.

Pagulayan's recent accomplishments:

...second place in the 2002 US Open
...second place in the 2003 world pool championship
...third place at the 2004 BCA Open
...won the 2004 world pool championship
...won the 2005 US Open

Hohmann has accomplished this in recent times:

...won the 2003 world pool championship
...second place in the 2004 US Open
...won the 2005 BCA Open title
...dominated the straight pool event at the 2005 European Championships
...fifth place in the 2005 world pool championship
...won the 2006 Joss Tour Championship

No player, Efren and Ralf included, has recent credentials of this quality.

Guess what I'm saying is that "who is the best" can, in my opinion, have four reasonable answers: Reyes, Souquet, Hohmann, Pagulayan. Which one is it? ---- that's like choosing between four new Ferraris, for whichever one you choose, you've made a great choice.

Just for the record, I'm choosing Hohmann.

I have a tendency to view pool in echelons of players. Efren is at the very top, and right below him is another echelon containing Sigel, Archer, Hall, Varner, Strickland. Right below those Hall of Famers are the younger world beaters containing Souquet, Deuel, Immonen, Pagulayan, Hohmann, Manalo, Wu, Yang, Ortmann, Orcullo, and a couple more that I am sure that I missed.

There are the upper tier pros, I mean beyond world class players, they are masters at this game. Below this you would have a world class pro, and so on.

 

[Cornerman]

When I thought your initial post over, there was a side of me that agreed with you. I thought about the fact that in golf, those that prevail on the toughest course are often the ones held in highest esteem.
.

This is probably the root of my thinking. I also can't gage how tough the tournaments are overseas since I don't go there. And, I think we're talking about overall, while I believe many posters are focusing on 9-ball only. Today, any of the top... 10 or so players can win any of the normal 9-ball tournaments. I don't think this is the case with the U.S. Open 9-ball in September or the Derby City all-around. And yes, I think Thorsten can and will win the U.S. Open 9-ball sometime in the very near future.

I can only base my opinion on who are the best overall players using my actual live attendance, not TV viewing or news reportings. To do otherwise would be too much speculation on my part. That being said, I go to several tournaments, so it's not just based on a single affair. For overall best, I would think that seeing the players at the Derby City and the U.S. Open 9-ball would give a full view of who is "best overall." Add the IPT, and one should be able to gage overall skill.

For truly best overall, the Derby City would have to be three weeks to include 14.1 and 8-ball. I also think they should consider 10-ball instead of 9-ball. Of course, my money would still be on Efren for the best overall for all these games, but the field would be closer than it is now.

Fred

 

[1 Pocket Ghost]

Reyes forever holds that title, and right below him would be Varner and Sigel for the last two decades.

For the past all-around, just between Varner and Sigel, I'd say it's Varner without a doubt...

...I think either one might win the straight pool and the 9 ball segments, but Nick would have took down the banks and the one pocket fer sure.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Just for the record, most players who have been around for decades say Efren played better than anyone, even in the days of Johnston City. Look at it this way- Efren is one of the best 9-ball players in the world today. He is the best one-pocket player in the history of the game. He is a world class 3-cushion player. He is the best balkline player alive. He has also won titles in snooker. He is the best rotation player in the world. He is the best 8-ball player in the world. He plays bank pool at a very high level. What more proof do you want? People who don't admit Efren is the greatest player ever always seem to have some bias against him. He has withstood the test of time. The last couple of years, he still has won numerous titles, but that was with diminishing eyesight. His eyesight is now perfect, and for the next few years he is going to continue to amaze people. Stop hatin!!

 

[Bobby]

Just for the record, most players who have been around for decades say Efren played better than anyone, even in the days of Johnston City. Look at it this way- Efren is one of the best 9-ball players in the world today. He is the best one-pocket player in the history of the game. He is a world class 3-cushion player. He is the best balkline player alive. He has also won titles in snooker. He is the best rotation player in the world. He is the best 8-ball player in the world. He plays bank pool at a very high level. What more proof do you want? People who don't admit Efren is the greatest player ever always seem to have some bias against him. He has withstood the test of time. The last couple of years, he still has won numerous titles, but that was with diminishing eyesight. His eyesight is now perfect, and for the next few years he is going to continue to amaze people. Stop hatin!!

Excuse me, but while I agree that Efren is a truly great POOL player, I have to correct you on the billiards. Efren is not a world class 3-cushion player, he's roughly a 1.0-1.1 avg. Top players in 3-cushion have a 1.6-2.0 avg. And he's nowhere near the best balkline player....nowhere near. Frederic Caudron is widely recognized as the best balkline player in the world. Efren, as great a pool player as he is wouldn't stand a chance against top billiards players, even top amateurs would beat him.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Excuse me, but while I agree that Efren is a truly great POOL player, I have to correct you on the billiards. Efren is not a world class 3-cushion player, he's roughly a 1.0-1.1 avg. Top players in 3-cushion have a 1.6-2.0 avg. And he's nowhere near the best balkline player....nowhere near. Frederic Caudron is widely recognized as the best balkline player in the world. Efren, as great a pool player as he is wouldn't stand a chance against top billiards players, even top amateurs would beat him.

Where do you get your averages from? 3-cushion enthusiast Robert Byrne has regarded Efren as a world class 3 cushion player. He is certainly not a top player like Sayinger, Blomdahl, or Cuelemans, but he can hang with your average 3-cushion pro. Do you know Efren's high run in 3-cushion? Efren is also regarded as the best balkline player in the world, by people such as Billy Incardona, Danny DiLiberto, Jim Rempe, Nick Varner. I wonder why your opinion would be better than theirs?

 

[jnav447]

Very compelling post, Saurus, and, as I previously stated, I also thing Efren is the best overall player ever. But I think that Mr. Lassiter has close enough credentials to merit some kind of scientific tie-breaker. We may need some expert advice from a member knowledgeable in the following, tie-breaking exotic discipline: if Efren and Wimpy matched up, who would bring home the cash in bumper pool?

 

[Bobby]

Where do you get your averages from? 3-cushion enthusiast Robert Byrne has regarded Efren as a world class 3 cushion player. He is certainly not a top player like Sayinger, Blomdahl, or Cuelemans, but he can hang with your average 3-cushion pro. Do you know Efren's high run in 3-cushion? Efren is also regarded as the best balkline player in the world, by people such as Billy Incardona, Danny DiLiberto, Jim Rempe, Nick Varner. I wonder why your opinion would be better than theirs?

The players you mentioned have obviously been misquoted. Believe me I know what I'm talking about. In the billiard world Frederic Caudron is considered as great a balkline player as Efren is at one pocket. I know a very good amateur billiards player and he says it's well known in the billiard community that Reyes is not world class. In fact, I have a tape of Reyes playing Blomdahl in 3-C, Reyes did NOT look like a billiard player at all. It was obvious that he was severely outclassed, I don't think he ran more than 3 the whole match.

 

[yobagua]

THis thread is getting funnier by the minute. Incardona, Rempe, Varner, and Diliberto as balkline experts!!!! HAHAHHAAH!!!!! Next thing you know we'll be going to Kevin Trudeau for the AIDS cure.

Watching Caudron run a 150 is a thing of beauty.

 

[jay helfert]

Greatest All Around Players

Great debate, I'm enjoying it. Fortunately for me I got to see all the greatest players of the last 40 years. And yes, God bless Efren but Harold Worst had something inside him that wouldn't let him be second best at anything. He had more heart than any ten poolplayers I've ever seen.
Talented, fearless and imperturbable were some adjectives I would use to describe Worst. Even the great hustlers like Cornbread and Puckett gave deference to him. I never saw anyone who could shoot a tough shot under pressure like Worst. He made it look routine.
I watched Worst dismantle Red at the Michigan State fairgrounds in 1963 in the Snooker (yes Snooker) finals. Red did win the One Pocket that year and Worst won the Nine Ball title. Was he the greatest all around player ever? I don't know. His 9-Ball game was one of the best, right there with Lassiter, but his One Pocket game was still coming when he passed away and I don't know if he ever won a 14.1 title. He did win the World three Cushion at age 24.
Lassiter's One Pocket game was never considered among the top players. At 9-Ball and 14.1 he was the Man. Interestingly enough at that time in history (mid 60's to early 70's) Eddie Kelly was considered the best All Around player in the world. Kelly played all games at the highest level.
In the 80's, Sigel, Varner and Rempe all played the three main games very well and were great All-Around players. Sigel would have probably gotten the nod back then, being a slight favorite over Nick and Jimmy at all three games. Mike was considered the best All-Around player for a number of years.
And let's not forget Buddy. He played top speed 9-Ball, One Pocket and Banks. Although he was not considered a top Straight Pool man, he could run 100's. He just didn't need to play that game as it was not too popular in tournaments or gambling. But don't think he couldn't play 14.1.
Present day, Efren gets all the accolades and deservedly so. He is the master of One Pocket, no question about it. And his 9-Ball game is tops too, but notice the period from 1986 to about 1993. He won very few 9-Ball tournaments, because his break was suspect. In 14.1, I doubt that Efren would have been to keen to play Sigel, Varner or Rempe for that matter during the 80's or 90's. Where was he at Derby City this year in the Straight Pool Challenge? Hummmm.
Now, my vote for the best All-Around player of the modern era goes to......
Jose Parica. For the money, he beat everyone and anyone at 9-Ball and One Pocket and to me that is the true test. When two great players go head to head until one quits is very telling, and Jose brought them all to their knees. And he won a few tournaments along the way too. And if you don't think he can play 14.1, you are sadly mistaken. He got the money playing Mizerak in his prime. Steve tried to give him 25 balls to 150. Big mistake.
I suspect that if anyone had tried to match up with Jose at Straights in the last 20 years, they would have got a game.
In the 80's and 90's (and even more recently) no one wanted anything to do with Parica gambling at any game. Period! You heard more about Efren because he got games. and he won at them. No one wanted to even try to match up with Jose. They just left him alone, kind of like Lassiter in the 60's.
Well there's my two cents worth.

 

[enzo]

great post jay, i enjoyed that. curious, what did harold worst die of? also, i heard grady mention him in a tape once, he said harold would practice strait pool everyday until he ran 200. don't know if that's true, but if it is, god damn!

 

[hanisch]

Where do you get your averages from? 3-cushion enthusiast Robert Byrne has regarded Efren as a world class 3 cushion player. He is certainly not a top player like Sayinger, Blomdahl, or Cuelemans, but he can hang with your average 3-cushion pro. Do you know Efren's high run in 3-cushion? Efren is also regarded as the best balkline player in the world, by people such as Billy Incardona, Danny DiLiberto, Jim Rempe, Nick Varner. I wonder why your opinion would be better than theirs?

what's your definition of world class? there are six guys in new york right now who would easily beat efren in 3-cushion: sang ho kim, sonny cho, michael kang, hugo patino, miguel torres, and young kyu lee. a month ago there would have been seven--pedro piedrabuena just moved to california. you can add to this list other players on the east coast who are also highly favored to beat efren in 3-cushion: mazin shooni and carlos hallon, not to mention frank torres from the mid-west.

now none of these guys, perhaps save pedro, can consistently compete with the world's best. so if efren can't beat these guys--which he can't--i can't see how you can call him world class. so far from world class, efren couldn't even compete the the top junior players in europe.

but furthermore, many more guys in new york are at least even-up to beat efren at 3-cushion: min jae pak, young gull lee, francisco parra, min soo lee; i can go on and on. if you don't believe it, next time you're in new york come to carom cafe in flushing and see for yourself. many of the players i've mentioned play in the weekly league, including michael kang, sonny cho, miguel torres, and min jae pak.

now if you switch the conversation to balkline, then efren would no doubt easily beat all of the players mentioned above. however, there are at least a half dozen european players who are much better the efren at balkline. furthermore, bobby is 100 percent correct: frederic caudron is the undisputed--and by a large margin at that--world's best balkline player. he also currently holds the number one ranking in 3-cushion. if you'd like to see what he can do, check out his videos at www.kozoom.com.

william

 

[bud green]

Robert Byrne also thinks Torbjorn Blomdahl could be a world class nine ball player so don't take the Efren is world class at three cushion comment too seriously. Blomdahl played some of the filipinos one time and said he had no chance against them. Efren did reportedly beat Sang Lee at straight billiards for $$ but I think Sang Lee could of spotted Efren 20 in a race to 50 and beat him when Sang was playing well. Deno Andrews was there when Sang ran 50 pts in 4 innings, one time.

I think Billiardsdigest.com has some stories about Worst in the untold stories section. Guys like him and Don Willis (Cincinnatti Kid) have some amazing stories.

Jose should be in the HOF, no doubt about it.