Thoughts on the Z² shaft.

Luther Blissett said:
Thoughts on the Z² shaft please.

If you've played with one for any length of time, what did you think of it?

Do you use one now as your regular playing shaft?

I played with a Z² for a few months, then it suffered some damage and I tried a 314² for a couple of months while it was at the menders (had to be sent abroad), and now I'm back to the Z².

Having learnt English pool first, I quite like the narrower feel, which is somewhere between a standard American cue and a standard English cue.

As I've always been a bit of a non-conformist I also like being the only player at the tournament who uses one. :)

On the other had though, most of the greats use a 12.75 or 13mm tip, and so I wonder if there is not actually something a bit stupid about using an 11.75mm tip in American pool.

I'm at the point now where it's going to be really strange making the switch back to a wider tip, and if I leave it much longer before making a totally firm decision then it might end up being just too hard to make the change in future. So, if you think it's not just totally down to personal preference and you have some killer persuasive arguments about what tip width is best, now is the time to chime in. :smile:
Click to expand...


Well,

here are perhaps some *great* players using 12.75. The average from the top players are using 11.75 to 12.75mm nowadays. I would say from what i saw, and from the pros i know, there are more guys using around 12-12.5 mm.

13 mm you ll find mostly very oldschooled players.
 
scsuxci said:
Well with a smaller tip your hitting less of the ball,so if your cueball is pinched
on the rail,your margin for error goes up because less tip is connecting the
cueball.
Its like comparing hitting a baseball with a broom handle or a bat,and which
one will give you what your looking for.

Do you not find a difference when you've tried both?
Click to expand...

That s wrong sir :)

if both tips has the same shape, you ll hit the cueball with the same amount from the tip.
a Dime is a Dime and a Nickel is a Nickel. That s it.

lg from overseas,

Ingo
 
Differences in Shaft/Tip Diameter

Patrick Johnson said:
Describe a couple.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick,
You ask an interesting question. I havent read all of the posts but Im going to take a stab at an answer. I play banks a lot and so does a local here who is Professional speed. He and I were talking about this. I have noted that playing with a 13mm stiff, 12 in taper shaft that banks play easier and my friend routinely plays banks with something off the wall when he just happens to be at his room that is very stiff. He and I were discussing how banks tend to play good with that type of equipment and a friend took your stance.

I believe that surely the compression point either is deeper on a wider tip due to the fact that its a bigger tip.....13mm so the curve have more tip in the compressible center that is at the height where the tip would compress down to on the shot.

It doesnt matter to me but is a conundrum that I notice makes a lot of difference when playing anything. Because you can simply get more English with the mass you are driving the shot with. I think this reason above is why. We all know this game is a game of thousands of an inch so a reduction of compressible center would make sense to me.

Its been said that Efren plays with a 20 oz cue with at 12.5 mm tip somewhere here and I find that I generally have liked lighter weights with bigger tips......remember there is a world of difference between me an Efren.

As Ive gotten to be a better player Ive noticed I want to do more with the cue ball and now Im actually leaning toward more weight and smaller tips for that reason instead of going for the protection that a 13 mm tip provides.

That may not be the answer anyone likes but to me it makes sense. I can take a cue with a smaller tip and play lightly and the extra spin with drive the cue ball more of where I want it to be..because I am being careful and expressing my touch to the curvature of the ball with less compressible area.

I think Yes you have to be more careful with a smaller diameter tip for the reason of less compressible area in the normal area of the curve due to the area of the nickel or the dime curvature being reduced even if that area is reduced only by thousandths......my opinion. I just know you get a lot more sensitivity with a smaller tip perhaps this is the reason.

Just another lovely day in paradise....

Robin Kelly :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
z shaft 2

Luther Blissett said:
Thoughts on the Z² shaft please.

If you've played with one for any length of time, what did you think of it?

Do you use one now as your regular playing shaft?

I played with a Z² for a few months, then it suffered some damage and I tried a 314² for a couple of months while it was at the menders (had to be sent abroad), and now I'm back to the Z².

Having learnt English pool first, I quite like the narrower feel, which is somewhere between a standard American cue and a standard English cue.

As I've always been a bit of a non-conformist I also like being the only player at the tournament who uses one. :)

On the other had though, most of the greats use a 12.75 or 13mm tip, and so I wonder if there is not actually something a bit stupid about using an 11.75mm tip in American pool.

I'm at the point now where it's going to be really strange making the switch back to a wider tip, and if I leave it much longer before making a totally firm decision then it might end up being just too hard to make the change in future. So, if you think it's not just totally down to personal preference and you have some killer persuasive arguments about what tip width is best, now is the time to chime in. :smile:
Click to expand...


Luther,
From your comments I can kind of tell where you are with your game because I was there once. I think that with any 11.75mm tip youre going to get more spin whether intentional or acccidental. The older and better that I get the more I know there is a lot to perfect alignment in pool. When you stray, you pay. If you stay with a small diameter tip you pay more but the good thing about using a small diameter is that it will make you work on shot alignment and stroke alignment if youre ready to use that type of equipment. Regardless of arguments I know in my game I get more spin from a smaller diameter shaft and Ive made the decision to go back to 13mm before because I wasnt ready. As I find myself a better player I want to be able to do more with the cue ball and I start wanting heavier cues with smaller diameter shafts. I like the lighter weight personally but its hard to argue with a setup that can get the job done with minimal effort. It just depends on where you game is. More weight is more driving force and a light touch with it drives the ball a little more so when using a light touch you can do more, this keeps you from ramping up your stroke and making a bad decision because youve over hit a shot. It may not make a lot of sense now but later on down the road I think it will. I has to me and now I understand why a lot of pros use the equipment they do.

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

Robin Kelly :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
I love my Z2, but would never push one on anybody. I like the low deflection, no surprise there. But more importantly, I like being able to hit lower on my cue ball without miscueing. Seems to make certain draw shots easier.
 
Luther Blissett said:
Thoughts on the Z² shaft please.

If you've played with one for any length of time, what did you think of it?

Do you use one now as your regular playing shaft?

I played with a Z² for a few months, then it suffered some damage and I tried a 314² for a couple of months while it was at the menders (had to be sent abroad), and now I'm back to the Z².

Having learnt English pool first, I quite like the narrower feel, which is somewhere between a standard American cue and a standard English cue.

As I've always been a bit of a non-conformist I also like being the only player at the tournament who uses one. :)

On the other had though, most of the greats use a 12.75 or 13mm tip, and so I wonder if there is not actually something a bit stupid about using an 11.75mm tip in American pool.

I'm at the point now where it's going to be really strange making the switch back to a wider tip, and if I leave it much longer before making a totally firm decision then it might end up being just too hard to make the change in future. So, if you think it's not just totally down to personal preference and you have some killer persuasive arguments about what tip width is best, now is the time to chime in. :smile:
Click to expand...

A couple of things...firstly, very few Z2's come up for sale in the For Sale forum. Secondly, most pros that use Preds play with a 314.

Make of it what you will.
 
336Robin:
... its a bigger tip.....13mm so the curve have more tip in the compressible center that is at the height where the tip would compress down to on the shot.
Click to expand...
Since a smaller tip is just a larger tip with a small layer removed from its outside, I don't think they compress differently - except maybe when hitting right on the edge.

... you can simply get more English with the mass you are driving the shot with. I think this reason above is why.
Click to expand...
Even if they did compress differently, I think the difference would be the same as a harder vs. softer tip, and there's no difference in the spin produced by those (even though the harder tip will produce a little more RPMs for the same stroke, that's not an increase in spin/speed ratio, which is the important thing for pool).

pj
chgo
 
TheThaiger said:
Yes, I forgot. In Parrot la-la land, all tips and shafts, and sizes thereof, makes no difference to anything in the world of pool.

All precisely the same.
Click to expand...
That's obviously not true here on Earth. You should visit sometime and broaden your horizons.

pj
chgo
 
I see your point sorta

Patrick Johnson said:
Since a smaller tip is just a larger tip with a small layer removed from its outside, I don't think they compress differently - except maybe when hitting right on the edge.


Even if they did compress differently, I think the difference would be the same as a harder vs. softer tip, and there's no difference in the spin produced by those (even though the harder tip will produce a little more RPMs for the same stroke, that's not an increase in spin/speed ratio, which is the important thing for pool).

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick,
I actually sort of figured you would reply as you did and I see your point sorta. Perhaps as you suggest when playing from the center the fact that the smaller tip is ...smaller....it passes by the curvature of the cue ball more spin just simply because the whole darn thing is smaller. It might be interesting to see if that could actually be measured but would probably require a stroke machine. It does seem to be a fairly contested piece of the game. Inquiring minds would love to know.

336Robin
 
336Robin said:
Patrick,
I actually sort of figured you would reply as you did and I see your point sorta. Perhaps as you suggest when playing from the center the fact that the smaller tip is ...smaller....it passes by the curvature of the cue ball more spin just simply because the whole darn thing is smaller.
Click to expand...

If both tips are the same curvature, then they both hit the CB on the same spot. Even if they're different curvatures the difference in contact points for the same cue movement is tiny - and you can hit the same contact point with either one by moving the larger tip a tiny bit farther. Most importantly, they both are limited to the same range of CB contact points, so neither one has greater spin capability - once you're used to the difference they both play the same.

It might be interesting to see if that could actually be measured but would probably require a stroke machine. It does seem to be a fairly contested piece of the game. Inquiring minds would love to know.
Click to expand...
I'd be interested, but I'd be very surprised if the results contradicted my simple logic.

pj <- simple minded
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If both tips are the same curvature, then they both hit the CB on the same spot. Even if they're different curvatures the difference in contact points for the same cue movement is tiny - and you can hit the same contact point with either one by moving the larger tip a tiny bit farther. Most importantly, they both are limited to the same range of CB contact points, so neither one has greater spin capability - once you're used to the difference they both play the same.


I'd be interested, but I'd be very surprised if the results contradicted my simple logic.

pj <- simple minded
chgo
Click to expand...

What about the physics of how the force spreads out sideways across a narrower vs wider tip, each made of the same material? There is more material to resist this force in a wider tip, so perhaps a narrower tip might be seen (with high speed video footage) to spread out a little more under the force of contacting the cue ball, thus resulting in a larger contact area.

I should state that this is nothing more than a theory which popped into my head a few seconds ago, but still I'd be interested in the views of you and others about whether it might hold any water.
 
Logic Noted

Patrick Johnson said:
If both tips are the same curvature, then they both hit the CB on the same spot. Even if they're different curvatures the difference in contact points for the same cue movement is tiny - and you can hit the same contact point with either one by moving the larger tip a tiny bit farther. Most importantly, they both are limited to the same range of CB contact points, so neither one has greater spin capability - once you're used to the difference they both play the same.


I'd be interested, but I'd be very surprised if the results contradicted my simple logic.

pj <- simple minded
chgo
Click to expand...

Logic being duly noted, I find it easier to spin the ball with a smaller tip and thats really not what I want when I bank be it accidental or intentional, so something is definitely going on......I find it easier to bank with a wider shaft, wider tip and with my logic I cannot fully explain why its easier with one rather than the other but it is. I do take extra pains to stand correctly, stroke straight and hit true, more especially when banking, perhaps Dr. Dave or Bob Jewett could enlighten us.......this sounds like something more in their realm.....physics....the land of Mordor.....lol

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
iusedtoberich said:
I played well (for me...) with a 314 for several years, then switched to a Z for 2 or 3 years, then switched back to a 314 for about the past 5 years.

I think after the initial adjustment period, I played the same with each one. I still have my Z's and Z-2's, that I will screw onto my shaft once in a while. They certainly feel skinny in my fingers, since I'm so used to the 314.

In my mid level experience, there is no other commercially available shaft on the market that has lower squirt than a Z/Z-2. (and I've tried almost every low squirt shaft that came out in the past 15 years).
Click to expand...

usedtobe,

Have you tried the McDermott i3 & if so what do you think about it?

Thanks in advance,
 
If you change one parameter & keep ALL other parameters exactly the same, I do not see how the outcome can be exactly the same.

Some suggest that you can get the same results out of different equipment parameters. While that is certainly true, it is not true from the exact same effort with ALL other parameters being exactly the same.

If you change one parameter then another parameter has to also be changed in order to get the exact same outcome.

Some say the differences are insignificant. I do not understand that statement & do not understand what motivates that statement (perhaps I do). They must not be playing the exact same game as me. Any & all difference is significant to me.

Just my $0.02.

Regards to all & Merry Christmas,
 
Luther Blissett said:
What about the physics of how the force spreads out sideways across a narrower vs wider tip, each made of the same material? There is more material to resist this force in a wider tip, so perhaps a narrower tip might be seen (with high speed video footage) to spread out a little more under the force of contacting the cue ball, thus resulting in a larger contact area.

I should state that this is nothing more than a theory which popped into my head a few seconds ago, but still I'd be interested in the views of you and others about whether it might hold any water.
Click to expand...
I think it might be true to a small degree - but I don't know what difference it would make other than imitating a slightly softer tip. I don't believe the tip slips appreciably on the cue ball with a well chalked hard tip, so a little more friction from a slightly larger contact area shouldn't make a noticable difference.

pj
chgo
 
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