Threading for ferrules

hdgis1

hdgis1

New member
Okay. Ive read and reread countless posts on the topic of the best way to thread tenons. Live tooling and compression die seem to be the most popular. Why am I not seeing any mention of adjustable dies? I woudl think if they are capable of threading metal some maple isnt gonna be to big of a deal. There are plenty of die holders capable of being chucked up in the drill chuck. It sounds as if this should introduce the die to the wood in such a way as to keep everything lined up and clean.

I guess the only problem I could envision would be the adjustable nature of the die itself. Most I have seen have a capless screw in them that open and close the die. Does this make the thread oval?

Chris
 
Sounds like it's pretty cheap to get one ( some $9 ).
Why not get one and try it ?

I did this one with a $2 file from Harbor Freight .
 
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Im gonna go out on a limb and sie the geometry of the die has something to do with it. Doesnt seem you can cut threads all the way to the bottom of the tenon.

Chris
 
hdgis1 said:
Okay. Ive read and reread countless posts on the topic of the best way to thread tenons. Live tooling and compression die seem to be the most popular. Why am I not seeing any mention of adjustable dies? I woudl think if they are capable of threading metal some maple isnt gonna be to big of a deal. There are plenty of die holders capable of being chucked up in the drill chuck. It sounds as if this should introduce the die to the wood in such a way as to keep everything lined up and clean.

I guess the only problem I could envision would be the adjustable nature of the die itself. Most I have seen have a capless screw in them that open and close the die. Does this make the thread oval?

Chris
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The reason you don't see many using metal cutting dyes is that most of them will chew the wood right off. They usually just strip the tenon. A true compression dye has no slots in it and I have not seen those for sale for cues. A ferrule itself can be used as a compression dye and that is how my first threaded ferrules were put on. I would put the glue on and force the ferrule to thread itself on. I did this with about 90% success, but the 10% of tenons that twisted off were too much. Then I experimented with various ways of cutting threads and introduced the tenon threader that locked into the tailstock. Later I made it rotate on a rod that went into the tailstock as I felt that gave more feel than one locked solid in the tailstock.
 
Is a compression die the same thing as a tenon threader? It seems all the threaders i have seen are the same size. are there odd ball ones available?

Chris

cueman said:
The reason you don't see many using metal cutting dyes is that most of them will chew the wood right off. They usually just strip the tenon. A true compression dye has no slots in it and I have not seen those for sale for cues. A ferrule itself can be used as a compression dye and that is how my first threaded ferrules were put on. I would put the glue on and force the ferrule to thread itself on. I did this with about 90% success, but the 10% of tenons that twisted off were too much. Then I experimented with various ways of cutting threads and introduced the tenon threader that locked into the tailstock. Later I made it rotate on a rod that went into the tailstock as I felt that gave more feel than one locked solid in the tailstock.
Click to expand...
 
Hi,

I use non threaded thru hole non capped ferrules @ .312. I glue it with G5 5 minute epoxy mix with a little white pigment. When I first started doing cue repair I was threading all the tenons with caped threaded ferrules as I was paranoid. I used a Unique tenon die tool and a heard lot of people recommending using wax during it's use. No way am I going to wax the tenon before gluing. 5 years ago I had a phone conversation with Dick Neighbors and he explained to me that he felt that threading was a waste of time. He changed my approach to ferrules and I have never turned back. To this day I agree with Dick's recommendation.

I found out later that the thru hole .312 ferrule was a better all around system for my cues and repair practices. I feel that I am getting a better hit this way because of the larger tenon without the stress of the smaller minor. I also track over 60 of my cues in the field in my pool hall and not one of the ferrules have come loose or have cracked in over 5 years. It is only due to my beta testing and field observations that I am able to make an objective conclusion on this issue for the time span so far proving that Dick was correct.

For me, having a .312 ferrule is the way to go. I have never had one fail and I do a lot of cue repair at my pool hall. I all fairness to the subject, the threaded ones did not fail either. IMO cutting threads reduces the strength of the tenon itself because of the smaller minor that exists from cutting the threads.

The glue's strength is stronger than the wood so it is academic anyway.:scratchhead:

Rick G
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I use non threaded thru hole non capped ferrules @ .312. I glue it with G5 5 minute epoxy mix with a little white pigment. When I first started doing cue repair I was threading all the tenons with caped threaded ferrules as I was paranoid. I used a Unique tenon die tool and a heard lot of people recommending using wax during it's use. No way am I going to wax the tenon before gluing.

I found out later that the thru hole .312 ferrule was a better all around system for my cues and repair practices. I feel that I am getting a better hit this way because of the larger tenon without the stress of the smaller minor. I also track of 60 of my cues in the field and non of the ferrules have come loose or have cracked in over 7 yeras.

For me, having a .312 ferrule is the way to go. I have never had one fail and I do a lot of cue repair at my pool hall. IMO cutting threads reduces the strength of the tenon itself because of the smaller minor that exists from cutting the threads.

The glue's strength is stronger than the wood so it is academic anyway.:scratchhead:

Rick G
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When was the last time you saw a broken tenon because it was .240" at the bottom of the threads instead of .3125" ?
I've seen way too many pressfit ferrules separate at the the bottom.
Specially those import shafts with hammered on ferrules that suddenly get to dry weather here in the west coast.
Even McDermotts suffer from bottom separation even though they are threaded on top.
You don't have much gluing surface on that tenon. The threads lock that ferrule in place .
The register/shoulder at the bottom keeps it lined up and add strength.

Glue is stronger than wood but somehow we thread the A-joint. Hell, there's a lot more gluing surface there.
Joey~ Threads collars, cap and ferrules ~
 
If some one comes to me and says they wanted a threaded tenon, should I just tell them no? Or if the cue has one on it, should I just change it and not tell them?

I understand, or have at least read, all the arguments on here about threaded vs non threaded. I would like to save all my opinions about cues until I actually make a cue. Until then I would like to do what a customer asks.

Chris

scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I use non threaded thru hole non capped ferrules @ .312. I glue it with G5 5 minute epoxy mix with a little white pigment. When I first started doing cue repair I was threading all the tenons with caped threaded ferrules as I was paranoid. I used a Unique tenon die tool and a heard lot of people recommending using wax during it's use. No way am I going to wax the tenon before gluing. 5 years ago I had a phone conversation with Dick Neighbors and he explained to me that he felt that threading was a waste of time. He changed my approach to ferrules and I have never turned back. To this day I agree with Dick's recommendation.

I found out later that the thru hole .312 ferrule was a better all around system for my cues and repair practices. I feel that I am getting a better hit this way because of the larger tenon without the stress of the smaller minor. I also track over 60 of my cues in the field in my pool hall and not one of the ferrules have come loose or have cracked in over 5 years. It is only due to my beta testing and field observations that I am able to make an objective conclusion on this issue for the time span so far proving that Dick was correct.

For me, having a .312 ferrule is the way to go. I have never had one fail and I do a lot of cue repair at my pool hall. I all fairness to the subject, the threaded ones did not fail either. IMO cutting threads reduces the strength of the tenon itself because of the smaller minor that exists from cutting the threads.

The glue's strength is stronger than the wood so it is academic anyway.:scratchhead:

Rick G
Click to expand...
 
hdgis1 said:
If some one comes to me and says they wanted a threaded tenon, should I just tell them no? Or if the cue has one on it, should I just change it and not tell them?

I understand, or have at least read, all the arguments on here about threaded vs non threaded. I would like to save all my opinions about cues until I actually make a cue. Until then I would like to do what a customer asks.

Chris
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Mock up some pieces.
Make one threaded.
Make one pressfit .
Grab a Robogrip with rubber jaws.
See which is harder to pull out.
 
Joey,
I'm gonna order the deluxe model file with a handle.Would you like one?
 
I realy appreciate your help guys. Im not looking to start another dead horse arguement about which one is better than the other. I just wanna learn a little more about tenon threaders.

Chris
 
hdgis1 said:
I realy appreciate your help guys. Im not looking to start another dead horse arguement about which one is better than the other. I just wanna learn a little more about tenon threaders.

Chris
Click to expand...

How many times have you practiced on making tenons using short maple pieces?
 
JoeyInCali said:
How many times have you practiced on making tenons using short maple pieces?
Click to expand...

Have you ever bought something you aren't familiar with? Did you just jump in and buy it without doing any research? Since, from what I can tell, tenon threaders are pretty specific to the cue building/repair industry there isn't much information on the internet that doesn't link back to this forum. Your advice with regards to practicing is great but it does nothing to help me understand my choices in available tools.

Chris
 
hdgis1 said:
Have you ever bought something you aren't familiar with? Did you just jump in and buy it without doing any research? Since, from what I can tell, tenon threaders are pretty specific to the cue building/repair industry there isn't much information on the internet that doesn't link back to this forum. Your advice with regards to practicing is great but it does nothing to help me understand my choices in available tools.

Chris
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Yes, many times. It's part of the growing pains.

Get one and get going .
http://www.cuestik.com/store/product.asp?DEPARTMENT_ID=125&ITEM_ID=5761
 
hdgis1 said:
Have you ever bought something you aren't familiar with? Did you just jump in and buy it without doing any research? Since, from what I can tell, tenon threaders are pretty specific to the cue building/repair industry there isn't much information on the internet that doesn't link back to this forum. Your advice with regards to practicing is great but it does nothing to help me understand my choices in available tools.

Chris
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

Earlier you asked if you should just change the customer's shaft from a threaded ferrule to a non-threaded ferrule without telling them. In my opion, NO - if the customer knew that his/her ferrule was threaded and later found out it was no longer threaded, they could demand that you buy them a brand new shaft.

Joey and the others are right, in that there is no absolute right way or wrong way to do various operations when building a cue. You have seen that some thread their ferrules and that some don't. The gist of your question above leads me to think you are asking "What's the right way?" The "right way" is the way you decide you want to build your cues.

FWIW, I originally had some trouble using a compression die to cut my ferrule tenon. I was advised to use wax - I asked "What???? No glue will stick to wax!!" The reply I got was - "Just try it - You'll like it" I DID try it and I DO like it. But it's not for everyone, as Rick said.

When it comes to threading, there are 2 choices - tenon threading or live threading. Anyone that can cut a tenon can then mount a tenon threader and cut the threads. It takes some more equipment and expertise to do live threading. I would agree with the live threading camp that it is the best way, but I'm not set up to do that yet. If we had to wait to set up our lathes for live threading and then learn to get the technique down, we'd either not be making any shafts for that much longer or not threading them. So IMHO, a tenon threader is a stop-gap technique along the way.

IIRC, you have been making furniture for many years, so I would call you a master furniture builder. So, if I ask you, a master at your craft, "What is the right way to join a leg to a coffee table or a dining table?" Would you reply "The correct way is . . . " or would you reply "The way I have found best is . . . "? I'm guessing the latter. It's the same in cue building.

By the way, I'm glad you are here, your previous experience has a lot of carry-over to cue building, and I look forward to your sharing your knowledge/experience with us.

My 2 cents,

Gary
 
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Hi,

If Chis Hightower endorses wax, you can take it to the bank as a good procedure. I always used it when I was threading and never had a problem.

Since I stopped threading one of the reasons I quit was I was paranoid about the wax at that time. In the long run it was a non issue.

IMO weather you thread your furrules or not, it should not make a difference if your gluing and fit up is performed correctly.
Rick
 
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Many aspects of cue making have pros and cons. As a cue maker you have to decide which are most important to you and go with that.
 
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