Threading for ferrules

One of the things I like about threaded ferrules is that there are no clamps. You can glue your ferrules off the lathe and as Joey pointed out more surface area for the glue. When I do a threaded ferrule I use a 3/8'' thread and have the top half of the tenon through. Your ferrule design can be a combination of both through and threaded, there are no rules. Just what works for you.
 
hdgis1 said:
Have you ever bought something you aren't familiar with? Did you just jump in and buy it without doing any research? Since, from what I can tell, tenon threaders are pretty specific to the cue building/repair industry there isn't much information on the internet that doesn't link back to this forum. Your advice with regards to practicing is great but it does nothing to help me understand my choices in available tools.

Chris
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I bought the dies from Chris Hightower, and after I ruined several tenons, I came on here and asked what I was doing wrong. Everyone was very helpful and guided me along. I think I understand things better when i screw up and make mistakes on my own, then ask for help, rather than just ask to be told how to do everything before I try it on my own. Ive got a pile of firewood accumulating in my little shop, but Ive learned something (usually what not to do, lol) from almost every piece of scrap Ive made. When I get stuck, and I just cant figure it out, I beg for help here and all these guys help. Im sure they laugh and some probably think Im an idiot, but its all worth it. So I guess my point is, when these guys throw you an idea or some advice, take it, because they dont have to share their hard fought knowledge and noobs like us should be grateful if they do. That dont mean you gotta kiss ass or anything, but be grateful. Try, fail, try, fail, ask AZ for help. Thats my system, lol.

Joe
 
JoeyInCali said:
When was the last time you saw a broken tenon because it was .240" at the bottom of the threads instead of .3125" ?
I've seen way too many pressfit ferrules separate at the the bottom.
Specially those import shafts with hammered on ferrules that suddenly get to dry weather here in the west coast.
Even McDermotts suffer from bottom separation even though they are threaded on top.
You don't have much gluing surface on that tenon. The threads lock that ferrule in place .
The register/shoulder at the bottom keeps it lined up and add strength.

Glue is stronger than wood but somehow we thread the A-joint. Hell, there's a lot more gluing surface there.
Joey~ Threads collars, cap and ferrules ~
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With the wood already in tension with a threaded tenon, It becomes stronger when exposed to compression loads.The tenon is stretched and the ferrule is compressed.
A push on ferrule does not have this pre-tension condition. So when a compression load is applied,the glue joint is in share.If the glue bond yield point is not substantially higher than the applied load, it will fail in time from cyclic fatigue.
 
Gary - I appreciate you taking the time to respond in a respectable manner. I completely agree that live threaded tenons with a full shoulder are the way to go. Im just not set up to do that.

I tried a standard die, and as been indicated, it shredded the wood. Though I dont truly understand why. I suppose there is some difference in the cutting geometry of a die vs a tenon threader.

As for the tenon threader itself - From what I can see there are only a few available. I subscribe to the philosophy of buying the best that I can afford and without some input into the quality of what is available, its pretty much just wasting money. I understand that threaders are a stop-gap but still no reason to waste money on one.

Thanks
Chris

GEBrown said:
Hi Chris,

Earlier you asked if you should just change the customer's shaft from a threaded ferrule to a non-threaded ferrule without telling them. In my opion, NO - if the customer knew that his/her ferrule was threaded and later found out it was no longer threaded, they could demand that you buy them a brand new shaft.

Joey and the others are right, in that there is no absolute right way or wrong way to do various operations when building a cue. You have seen that some thread their ferrules and that some don't. The gist of your question above leads me to think you are asking "What's the right way?" The "right way" is the way you decide you want to build your cues.

FWIW, I originally had some trouble using a compression die to cut my ferrule tenon. I was advised to use wax - I asked "What???? No glue will stick to wax!!" The reply I got was - "Just try it - You'll like it" I DID try it and I DO like it. But it's not for everyone, as Rick said.

When it comes to threading, there are 2 choices - tenon threading or live threading. Anyone that can cut a tenon can then mount a tenon threader and cut the threads. It takes some more equipment and expertise to do live threading. I would agree with the live threading camp that it is the best way, but I'm not set up to do that yet. If we had to wait to set up our lathes for live threading and then learn to get the technique down, we'd either not be making any shafts for that much longer or not threading them. So IMHO, a tenon threader is a stop-gap technique along the way.

IIRC, you have been making furniture for many years, so I would call you a master furniture builder. So, if I ask you, a master at your craft, "What is the right way to join a leg to a coffee table or a dining table?" Would you reply "The correct way is . . . " or would you reply "The way I have found best is . . . "? I'm guessing the latter. It's the same in cue building.

By the way, I'm glad you are here, your previous experience has a lot of carry-over to cue building, and I look forward to your sharing your knowledge/experience with us.

My 2 cents,

Gary
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hdgis1 said:
Gary - I appreciate you taking the time to respond in a respectable manner. I completely agree that live threaded tenons with a full shoulder are the way to go. Im just not set up to do that.

I tried a standard die, and as been indicated, it shredded the wood. Though I dont truly understand why. I suppose there is some difference in the cutting geometry of a die vs a tenon threader.

As for the tenon threader itself - From what I can see there are only a few available. I subscribe to the philosophy of buying the best that I can afford and without some input into the quality of what is available, its pretty much just wasting money. I understand that threaders are a stop-gap but still no reason to waste money on one.

Thanks
Chris
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My experience.... turn the tenon to .280 and put on 2 coats of CA to harden it. Put a little cue wax on the tenon and thread it SLOWLY with the 5/16-16 tenon threaded. 1 turn on .... 1/2 turn off until it is threaded all the way.

I used to shread them also until I did it this way.

Kim
 
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hdgis1 said:
Is a compression die the same thing as a tenon threader? It seems all the threaders i have seen are the same size. are there odd ball ones available?

Chris
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Some people are calling tenon threaders with a couple of cutting slots compression dyes, but true compression dyes do not have any slots cut in them and are made to form threads on undersized metal.
5/16-18 undersized threads are the industry standard, but aome cuemakers who thread-mill their tenons are using various other threads, but I do not know of anyone making tenon threaders available for those odd ball threads.
 
whammo57 said:
My experience.... turn the tenon to .280 and put on 2 coats of CA to harden it. Put a little cue wax on the tenon and thread it SLOWLY with the 3/8-16 tenon threaded. 1 turn on .... 1/2 turn off until it is threaded all the way.

I used to shread them also until I did it this way.

Kim
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.280 major for a 3/8" die? are you threading air:D just messin with you, i'm sure it was a typo
 
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hdgis1 said:
Gary - I appreciate you taking the time to respond in a respectable manner. I completely agree that live threaded tenons with a full shoulder are the way to go. Im just not set up to do that.

I tried a standard die, and as been indicated, it shredded the wood. Though I dont truly understand why. I suppose there is some difference in the cutting geometry of a die vs a tenon threader.

As for the tenon threader itself - From what I can see there are only a few available. I subscribe to the philosophy of buying the best that I can afford and without some input into the quality of what is available, its pretty much just wasting money. I understand that threaders are a stop-gap but still no reason to waste money on one.

Thanks
Chris
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The reason you are finding it difficult to cut wood with a die designed for steel is the cutting action in wood is very different from that of steel. When you cut steel the chip breaks off the cutting tool. The tool pushes up a chip then the chip breaks off. In a very soft material like wood you have to use more of cutting action so your tool has to have a very positive rake angle and must be very keen. To understand the concept better you can observe that cutting action while using a single point tool in the lathe. As well when you are cutting around a dowel the material is going to cut different depending on how the tool is presented in relation to the grain of the wood. Its like using a hand plane on a piece of hard wood, the plane is not going to cut the same on the end as it will on the face of the board. So to make my long answer short a die designed for steel is not very effective in wood. They are two very different types of material and how you remove material from one is not the same as the other. Wood is composed of layers and has grain, metal is alot more homogeneous in its composition.
 
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hdgis1 said:
G

I tried a standard die, and as been indicated, it shredded the wood. Though I dont truly understand why. I suppose there is some difference in the cutting geometry of a die vs a tenon threader.

Thanks
Chris
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Did you try using the dies that come in a kit?about the size of a 1/2 dollar?

If so those are just thread cleaning dies and are tapered starting out way smaller than the thread size and opening up to the thread size just shredding the wood to nothing....been there also

BTW:The unique is what I use but,"IF" you buy the unique just buy the die!The tenons/bit will just take up space as they dont even come close to being usable.........JMHO
 
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HDR10 said:
Did you try using the dies that come in a kit?about the size of a 1/2 dollar?

If so those are just thread cleaning dies and are tapered starting out way smaller than the thread size and opening up to the thread size just shredding the wood to nothing....been there also

BTW:The unique is what I use but,"IF" you buy the unique just buy the die!The tenons/bit will just take up space as they dont even come close to being usable.........JMHO
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Thank you all for the help on this. Took the word of those who know and ordered the unique threader today. We'll see what happens when it gets here!

Chris
 
Whether it's threaded or not I prefer to leave the shaft in my Deluxe while the 5-min sets up for an hour to maintain the run-out. I normally chuck the front of the shaft lightly with rolling paper and the back of the shaft strong with a strip of silicone rubber flat stock so the shaft doesn't move or get dented. If it's a replacement ferrule hopefully I have enough ferrules that I pre made in my drawers to not remove the shaft. I'd rather wait an hour then have to redial in the shaft.

I bought my threader from Atlas but like Chris originally did, I chuck a steel sized dowel in my tail stock and slide the end of the threader on the dowel to allow it to spin but keep it aligned to the tennon. I then slide another dowel through the back clear out hole of the threader to use as a handle and thread the tennon by hand with wax. I stop short of bottoming the threader on the shoulder as to not drive any wax into the end grain. Because of not fully threading the tennon I drill a pilot on all my threaded ferrules.
 
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