Tight pockets are NOT good for the game!

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Agreed. The more I hear people in the pool hall whine about needing tighter pockets, the harder it gets to shut up. The fact is, I know these peoples games and they are by far, not able to run out regularly on ANY kind of pool table. Running 2 balls on a tight table should not be more prestigeous than running 2 racks on a 4.75 inch table, but somehow that's what these people think.

Most people in a pool hall are what I call "5 hangers". They can make 5 balls if they are well spread out and preferably close to the pockets, somewhat regularly. Now, they can do this on a tight table too, because it's not much harder to do. There is no tricky position or awkwardly placed balls and little need for big power. When they see players, better than themselves, struggle to get out from a (tricky) 5 ball out on the same table where they can put down the 5 hangers, they get the wrong idea about their own skill. On a table where a better player than the "5 hanger" player may struggle to get out, what happens is that the skill gap actually gets smaller between such a player and the 5 hanger, so results will be more random, not less. Usually the worse player will still lose, but they'll feel more involved, since they're not getting ran out on. Some of the better players power and knowledge gets eliminated due to certain shots no longer being viable, or shots that would be good on other tables staying up. This is especially magnified with deep shelf pockets, where a missed ball frequently gets left hanging in the pocket. After a while people will adjust to this and a skill gap may be reestablished, but not necessarily. Especially if the better player is a naturally more aggressive type. The skill gap will be pushed up the pool hierachy and may now exist between for instance the high 600 to low 700 players and those slightly below, rather than lower down. So there are few blowout matches until you get to this level.
Idk man.. I don’t know how good of a player you are but running out on a valley with 4.75 inch pockets is not challenging or even fun. I don’t want to play on 4 inch pockets either.. a happy medium is 4.25 for me But there is nothing impressive about running a rack on a valley with pockets so big you just get it close and it dumps in.
 

Palmetto cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We need both in my opinion. I can't tell you how many young friends I've cautioned about going too low with pocket size on their home tables. They often talk about 4" or 3 7/8 pockets with gleam in their eyes. Yes, this will improve you ball pocketing skills, but you miss out on another important skill. Being able to cheat the pockets to get better shape, or get back on the proper angle when you've left yourself straight ins unintentionally. I'm against buckets, except for kids, and beginners. That wonderful seed of just how fun this game is needs to be planted. I would rather see someone using pocket reducers on 4 1/2 pockets to practice ball pocketing skills. That way it's just temporary. Interesting discussion for sure.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Time to make the bucket huggers cringe.

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skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We need both in my opinion. I can't tell you how many young friends I've cautioned about going too low with pocket size on their home tables. They often talk about 4" or 3 7/8 pockets with gleam in their eyes. Yes, this will improve you ball pocketing skills, but you miss out on another important skill. Being able to cheat the pockets to get better shape, or get back on the proper angle when you've left yourself straight ins unintentionally. I'm against buckets, except for kids, and beginners. That wonderful seed of just how fun this game is needs to be planted. I would rather see someone using pocket reducers on 4 1/2 pockets to practice ball pocketing skills. That way it's just temporary. Interesting discussion for sure.

i play mostly on stock GC's and pocket reducers are handy to use once in a while to sharpen up. bit annoying to cue over at times, but for someone not wanting to or able to shim a table properly, i would still recommend them
 

shooter_Hans

Well-known member
I use to play at this guy's house who had very tight pockets put on his table to where it is borderline unplayable. He thought people would come over to his detached garage and play. He thought wrong. I went there a couple of times only because I didn't want to make him feel bad about not coming over and playing.

He eventually moved to his new place and made the pockets normal again.
 

tomatoshooter

Well-known member
I use to play at this guy's house who had very tight pockets put on his table to where it is borderline unplayable. He thought people would come over to his detached garage and play. He thought wrong. I went there a couple of times only because I didn't want to make him feel bad about not coming over and playing.

He eventually moved to his new place and made the pockets normal again.
Before anyone tightens the pockets on their table, we sound make them upload a video of them beating the ghost. Twice. We'll allow 1/8" for every game they beat the ghost by.
 

shooter_Hans

Well-known member
Before anyone tightens the pockets on their table, we sound make them upload a video of them beating the ghost. Twice. We'll allow 1/8" for every game they beat the ghost by.
Not only that but I suggest people to rethink the idea of tightening the pockets because the tightest isn't always the best.

My buddies table was so tight that it took away certain cut shots. Almost one third, maybe even more, were eliminated. The side pocket bumpers were straight where it normally would flare. So it changes how you play the game completely. LOL

He found out quickly.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not only that but I suggest people to rethink the idea of tightening the pockets because the tightest isn't always the best.

My buddies table was so tight that it took away certain cut shots. Almost one third, maybe even more, were eliminated. The side pocket bumpers were straight where it normally would flare. So it changes how you play the game completely. LOL

He found out quickly.
Sounds like your buddy had someone do the work that didn't know what they were doing.

I've beat the ghost on my table a couple times (9B, Race to 7; 7-5 both times)) but lose far more than I win. I'd classify my table a tight but fair. It scores a 1.12 on Dr. Dave's Table Difficulty Factor Calculator.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Idk man.. I don’t know how good of a player you are but running out on a valley with 4.75 inch pockets is not challenging or even fun. I don’t want to play on 4 inch pockets either.. a happy medium is 4.25 for me But there is nothing impressive about running a rack on a valley with pockets so big you just get it close and it dumps in.
Sure man, I was a fargo 649 when I quit after playing less and less for years, but at the moment I haven't played for 1 year+ because of ongoing health issues. My best game is not pool but snooker, blackball and Chinese 8 ball, so I believe I can speak with some knowledge about tight pockets. In fact the tighter the pockets, the more of an advantage I'd have in most cases since I tended to do most of my practise on a match snooker table (the kind the pros play on, though in no way does that mean I am anywhere near as skilled). I certainly don't advocate against them due to not being able to play on them. I played on those tables because that was what available at my club, btw. I generally think I enjoy snooker and all other games, really, when played on reasonable pockets (certainly larger than the pro snooker table), with the exception of Chinese 8 ball amd blackball where you can use strategy more and it's a part of the game.

I can't speak about Valleys so much because my only experience playing on them has been in dingy bars and with crappy cues and balls too and never competitively. I don't think I've ever encountered one I'd think was level enough for high level pool. I would say though, that running many racks on a 9 footer, no matter the pocket size (within reason) is and will remain a big deal.
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The idea with tight pockets is tightening of the ball line - at/for all speeds. You guys expound on small pockets as if they're impossible.

We need both in my opinion. I can't tell you how many young friends I've cautioned about going too low with pocket size on their home tables. They often talk about 4" or 3 7/8 pockets with gleam in their eyes. Yes, this will improve you ball pocketing skills, but you miss out on another important skill. Being able to cheat the pockets to get better shape, or get back on the proper angle when you've left yourself straight ins unintentionally. I'm against buckets, except for kids, and beginners. That wonderful seed of just how fun this game is needs to be planted. I would rather see someone using pocket reducers on 4 1/2 pockets to practice ball pocketing skills. That way it's just temporary. Interesting discussion for sure.
This concept of cheating the pocket is very low res by today's standards. It's better suited to staying relentlessly alive on the road ie; loose, worn equipment. The idea of being on the road after all is stealing.

Never been on the road or playing in serious action. Do not care. The ball and pocket stay the same size no matter how slow or hard you hit a shot. Being outta line is a competence issue - as is the more obvious pocketing inaccuracy. Those and other difficulties have already been addressed, greatly diminished, and proven to be a nothing burger by dozens if not thousands of players around the world.

Whatever game suffers from tight pockets, it's not pocket billiards.
 

RichT

New member
Here in Japan all clubs have at least one pro table with 4” or less pockets. My club has one table with 3.9” pockets, one with 4”, another with 4.125 and the rest with 4.5”.

I didn’t like playing on the 3.9” table initially but now I enjoy the challenge. I ran a three pack the other day against a local pro and really felt I had achieved something! Anyone who plays well here hates playing on larger pocket tables so I had to embrace the challenge. Once I can beat the ghost on that table I will be good enough for serious competition.

I have only been playing seriously for a couple of years but was pretty decent at snooker as a kid (few breaks over a 100). I have to say my understanding of natural angles, playing into the line of the next shot etc has really come on since I started working on the most difficult table. I can now plan ahead much better, use spin when required rather than just for the hell of it and have really had to reinforce my pre-shot / mental routine as any weakness at all stops runouts. Safety too has become much more important.

I am a bit of a perfectionist so enjoy the process but some days suck for sure.

I actually lived in the US for a year and can remember how easy pool seemed on bar tables. There are none of these in pool clubs in Korea, Japan or Singapore; all countries I have lived in. My view is that for a game to attract students it should be challenging. I would say 8-ball is a better game for beginners on a nine footer as this can be fun at any level and the challenge is scaleable.

I do use the 4.5” tables for 14.1 though. I finally got over 50 (55) at the end of last year so I want to get to 75 during 2024! I am saying this to give you a rough indication of my level.

By the way, there are ALOT of strong players in Asia and people probably take the game much more seriously here. At my club there are at least 10 players better than me. Depressing but true.

Long post but I hope it gives you some perspective.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The idea with tight pockets is tightening of the ball line - at/for all speeds. You guys expound on small pockets as if they're impossible.


This concept of cheating the pocket is very low res by today's standards. It's better suited to staying relentlessly alive on the road ie; loose, worn equipment. The idea of being on the road after all is stealing.

Never been on the road or playing in serious action. Do not care. The ball and pocket stay the same size no matter how slow or hard you hit a shot. Being outta line is a competence issue - as is the more obvious pocketing inaccuracy. Those and other difficulties have already been addressed, greatly diminished, and proven to be a nothing burger by dozens if not thousands of players around the world.

Whatever game suffers from tight pockets, it's not pocket billiards.
Obvious you've never run a room. Also 'cheating the pocket' IS part of playing the game. It has nothing to with 'loose worn equipment' or stealing on the road. Sounds like every other keyboard-warrior stream watcher that can't play a lick.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Obvious you've never run a room. Also 'cheating the pocket' IS part of playing the game. It has nothing to with 'loose worn equipment' or stealing on the road. Sounds like every other keyboard-warrior stream watcher that can't play a lick.
Run a room nope. Cheating the pocket is a part of "that" game. Cheatable pockets become an excuse to freewheel for the players and the noobs get to experience the vibe of pool. woopee.
That was then. Now you have the rest of the world already prepped in snooker and other games with very tight pockets. Seems this is an obvious step in quality of play everywhere except here. You can call delusional all you like but fact is the country that invented modern pool can't even play it up to world standards.
 

Ghost of OBC

Well-known member
Run a room nope. Cheating the pocket is a part of "that" game. Cheatable pockets become an excuse to freewheel for the players and the noobs get to experience the vibe of pool. woopee.
That was then. Now you have the rest of the world already prepped in snooker and other games with very tight pockets. Seems this is an obvious step in quality of play everywhere except here. You can call delusional all you like but fact is the country that invented modern pool can't even play it up to world standards.
The obvious endpoint of this evolution is Russian Pyramid. It is a crutch for the weak to believe a ball should be make-able in a given pocket from any angle on the table. We'll be able to use Stone Henge to time our league matches.
 
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rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can call delusional all you like but fact is the country that invented modern pool can't even play it up to world standards.
I'm an advocate of tight pockets but do not feel pocket size is why we are behind the rest of the world . i think you mentioned it in an earlier post; it’s the bar box. Like you said, no 7’ tables in Asia. Bar tables may have made the game more accessible for Americans but it has negatively impacted the growth of the sport from a professional level. Imagine if everyone started out playing on 9’ tables and every league in American played on 9’ tables. I think we would be more competitive on the world stage. Just my opinion. I’m sure the bar table bangers who think they’re special because they can run a couple racks on a toy table will start bashing, so let it begin!
 
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